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LWDT 8: Hitting the Marx

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Under which leaders (if any) was the Soviet Union socialist?

Lenin (1918-1924)
411
34%
Stalin (1924-1953)
223
19%
Khrushchev (1953-1964)
149
12%
Brezhnev (1964-1982)
125
10%
Gorbachev (1985-1991)
126
10%
Never
167
14%
 
Total votes : 1201
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Chernoslavia
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Posts: 9890
Founded: Jun 13, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Chernoslavia » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:30 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Chernoslavia wrote:
There's other unnecessary crime that stained the ''revolution'' lmao.

...okay?


You were saying that as if that was the only bad the reds have done during the Russian Revolution. Also just letting you know considering your shit knowledge of history.
Last edited by Chernoslavia on Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn
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Northern Davincia
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Posts: 16960
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Northern Davincia » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:30 pm

Cappuccina wrote:
Liriena wrote:Yep. It's totalitarianism because some rich people might pay taxes and stuff.

Socialism equals taxes, news at 11!

Also correct. Everyone at the IRS is a red agent.
Hoppean Libertarian, Acolyte of von Mises, Protector of Our Sacred Liberties
Economic Left/Right: 9.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."
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Liriena
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Posts: 60885
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Liriena » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:31 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Cappuccina wrote:Socialism equals taxes, news at 11!

Also correct. Everyone at the IRS is a red agent.

wtf I love the IRS now
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist		Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
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Ostroeuropa
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Posts: 58535
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:31 pm

Cappuccina wrote:
Liriena wrote:Yep. It's totalitarianism because some rich people might pay taxes and stuff.

Socialism equals taxes, news at 11!


To be fair, McDonnell has snuck in some socialism. 10% of all companies in the UK's shares will be transfered to the people who work there (Non-saleable, merely dividends) over the next 10 years if Labour wins.

A good start.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.
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Cappuccina
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Posts: 2905
Founded: Jun 05, 2018
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Postby Cappuccina » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:32 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Cappuccina wrote:Socialism equals taxes, news at 11!

Also correct. Everyone at the IRS is a red agent.

Can't tell if serious.....
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Chernoslavia
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Founded: Jun 13, 2011
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Postby Chernoslavia » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:33 pm

Liriena wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
So what, rolling back the surveillance state, legalizing drugs, that kind of totalitarianism?

Yep. It's totalitarianism because some rich people might pay taxes and stuff.


....and that ''stuff'' being the seizure of nearly everything they own. Lying by omission is still lying.
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn
Top
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Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 58535
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:35 pm

Chernoslavia wrote:
Liriena wrote:Yep. It's totalitarianism because some rich people might pay taxes and stuff.


....and that ''stuff'' being the seizure of nearly everything they own. Lying by omission is still lying.


Under a McDonnell government?
Dude.

They're not even paying above 50%.

It's 45% and closing the loopholes, that's all.

The only outright seizures is 10% of the shares of companies, and that's occurring over 10 years. Crucially, they're allowed to issue 10% more stock and just hand it over to their workers, and i'd wager that's what they end up doing in order to comply.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.
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Chernoslavia
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9890
Founded: Jun 13, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Chernoslavia » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:36 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Chernoslavia wrote:
....and that ''stuff'' being the seizure of nearly everything they own. Lying by omission is still lying.


Under a McDonnell government?
Dude.

They're not even paying above 50%.

It's 45% and closing the loopholes, that's all.

The only outright seizures is 10% of the shares of companies, and that's occurring over 10 years. Crucially, they're allowed to issue 10% more stock and just hand it over to their workers.


No I mean under Socialism.
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn
Top
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Liriena
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 60885
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Liriena » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:36 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Cappuccina wrote:Socialism equals taxes, news at 11!


To be fair, McDonnell has snuck in some socialism. 10% of all companies in the UK's shares will be transfered to the people who work there (Non-saleable, merely dividends) over the next 10 years if Labour wins.

A good start.

The long road to market socialism. You hate to see it.
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist		Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism

⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
if you passed biology and know
gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

I disown most of my previous posts
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User avatar
Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 58535
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:36 pm

Chernoslavia wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
Under a McDonnell government?
Dude.

They're not even paying above 50%.

It's 45% and closing the loopholes, that's all.

The only outright seizures is 10% of the shares of companies, and that's occurring over 10 years. Crucially, they're allowed to issue 10% more stock and just hand it over to their workers.


No I mean under Socialism.


It's not necessarily required, but I don't view that as a moral concern, just a pragmatic one. They shouldn't own this stuff in the first place.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.
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Tekeristan
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Posts: 5344
Founded: Mar 08, 2015
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Postby Tekeristan » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:39 pm

Why are there so many libs in here
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Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 58535
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:40 pm

Liriena wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
To be fair, McDonnell has snuck in some socialism. 10% of all companies in the UK's shares will be transfered to the people who work there (Non-saleable, merely dividends) over the next 10 years if Labour wins.

A good start.

The long road to market socialism. You hate to see it.


Proof of concept and normalizing it can lead to pushing further next time.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.
Top
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Pasong Tirad
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11943
Founded: May 31, 2007
Democratic Socialists

Postby Pasong Tirad » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:44 pm

Republica JIM wrote:The socialism is the more totalitarian ideology.

Image
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Northern Davincia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16960
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Northern Davincia » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:46 pm

Cappuccina wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:Also correct. Everyone at the IRS is a red agent.

Can't tell if serious.....

I can't think of anything more socialist than taking my money and giving it to a government that doesn't work.
Hoppean Libertarian, Acolyte of von Mises, Protector of Our Sacred Liberties
Economic Left/Right: 9.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."
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Tekeristan
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5344
Founded: Mar 08, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Tekeristan » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:48 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Cappuccina wrote:Can't tell if serious.....

I can't think of anything more socialist than taking my money and giving it to a government that doesn't work.

Go read Marx
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Nakena
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Posts: 15010
Founded: May 06, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Nakena » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:55 pm

Only the marxist definition of socialism is necessarily related to the means of production.
Last edited by Nakena on Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Puczovska
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 48
Founded: Apr 02, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Puczovska » Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:47 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Cappuccina wrote:Socialism equals taxes, news at 11!


To be fair, McDonnell has snuck in some socialism. 10% of all companies in the UK's shares will be transfered to the people who work there (Non-saleable, merely dividends) over the next 10 years if Labour wins.

A good start.

>if Labour wins we'll be too deep in debt to do anything, plus who wants to vote for the politicians in it that take us for idiots
［　(★)　］
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Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 58535
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:49 pm

Puczovska wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
To be fair, McDonnell has snuck in some socialism. 10% of all companies in the UK's shares will be transfered to the people who work there (Non-saleable, merely dividends) over the next 10 years if Labour wins.

A good start.

>if Labour wins we'll be too deep in debt to do anything, plus who wants to vote for the politicians in it that take us for idiots


The Tories have ballooned the deficit. Labour's economic proposals are some of the most well researched and established in this countries history. You don't know what you're talking about.

Labour managed to control the debt and didn't let it grow until the economy crashed. Under the Tories it grows *Even in normal times*.

Image
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.
Top
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Pasong Tirad
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11943
Founded: May 31, 2007
Democratic Socialists

Postby Pasong Tirad » Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:50 pm

Image
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Northern Davincia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16960
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Northern Davincia » Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:57 pm

Pasong Tirad wrote:

The only Murray worth reading is Rothbard.
Hoppean Libertarian, Acolyte of von Mises, Protector of Our Sacred Liberties
Economic Left/Right: 9.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."
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Duvniask
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6546
Founded: Aug 30, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Duvniask » Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:00 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Cappuccina wrote:Can't tell if serious.....

I can't think of anything more socialist than taking my money and giving it to a government that doesn't work.

When this is legitimately the level that some people are at, then there is little use in trying.*

*it makes no difference if this is trolling btw, since it is prevalent enough that it may as well not be.
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Pasong Tirad
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11943
Founded: May 31, 2007
Democratic Socialists

Postby Pasong Tirad » Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:01 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:

The only Murray worth reading is Rothbard.

Lol the guy who thinks parents should be allowed to sell their children? Yeah ok.
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Pasong Tirad
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11943
Founded: May 31, 2007
Democratic Socialists

Postby Pasong Tirad » Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:02 pm

Duvniask wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:I can't think of anything more socialist than taking my money and giving it to a government that doesn't work.

When this is legitimately the level that some people are at, then there is little use in trying.*

*it makes no difference if this is trolling btw, since it is prevalent enough that it may as well not be.

Peak "socialism is when the government does stuff" moments
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Grenartia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44623
Founded: Feb 14, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Grenartia » Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:04 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:

The only Murray worth reading is Rothbard.


>Murray Rothbard
>'child sex slavery is A-ok!'

How do his supporters even sleep at night?
Lib-left. Antifascist, antitankie, anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist (including the imperialism of non-western countries). Christian (Unitarian Universalist). Background in physics.
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Pasong Tirad
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11943
Founded: May 31, 2007
Democratic Socialists

Postby Pasong Tirad » Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:08 pm

Grenartia wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:The only Murray worth reading is Rothbard.


>Murray Rothbard
>'child sex slavery is A-ok!'

How do his supporters even sleep at night?

With ear plugs so they don't hear the cries of kids in their flourishing free market of children.
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