LWDT 8: Hitting the Marx

[Arumdaum]

How does everyone feel here about what's going on in Hong Kong? It's ignited a civil war between anarchists and tankies on the left lol

I hope for the best for HKers but expect at least almost the worst.
I also hope the boycotts do something but again don't expect it.

What kind of change do you hope the boycotts achieve?

[North German Realm]

How does everyone feel here about what's going on in Hong Kong? It's ignited a civil war between anarchists and tankies on the left lol

I'm not a leftist either, tbqh, but I'm completely pro-HK. China as a nation-state should be dismantled asap.

[Cekoviu]

How does everyone feel here about what's going on in Hong Kong? It's ignited a civil war between anarchists and tankies on the left lol

Hong Kong deserves democracy and so does the rest of China.

[Uiiop]

I hope for the best for HKers but expect at least almost the worst.
I also hope the boycotts do something but again don't expect it.

What kind of change do you hope the boycotts achieve?

In the realms of vague realism: End of self-censorship for China and their businesses less reliant on China as a whole. Also The companies make a one time big donation to human rights groups.
In the realm of pure dreams: The business switch support (If covertly) directly to HKers and that support somehow doesn't turn to into exploitation.

[Arumdaum]

How does everyone feel here about what's going on in Hong Kong? It's ignited a civil war between anarchists and tankies on the left lol

I'm not a leftist either, tbqh, but I'm completely pro-HK. China as a nation-state should be dismantled asap.

bro i already know what rightists think theres a huge circlejerk rn

[Hanafuridake]

How does everyone feel here about what's going on in Hong Kong? It's ignited a civil war between anarchists and tankies on the left lol

My ideal solution would be a democratic federalized China where the CCP has been kicked out.

But that's very unlikely to happen, to put it mildly.

[Salus Maior]

How does everyone feel here about what's going on in Hong Kong? It's ignited a civil war between anarchists and tankies on the left lol

My ideal solution would be a democratic federalized China where the CCP has been kicked out.

But that's very unlikely to happen, to put it mildly.

Not Imperial Restoration?

[Hanafuridake]

My ideal solution would be a democratic federalized China where the CCP has been kicked out.

But that's very unlikely to happen, to put it mildly.

Not Imperial Restoration?

That would just be giving the Hanfu movement ammunition to rant about a Manchu conspiracy.

[Salus Maior]

Not Imperial Restoration?

That would just be giving the Hanfu movement ammunition to rant about a Manchu conspiracy.

Probably about time for a change in Dynasty anyway.

[Hanafuridake]

That would just be giving the Hanfu movement ammunition to rant about a Manchu conspiracy.

Probably about time for a change in Dynasty anyway.

Since the PRC keeps insisting that the Dalai Lama is Chinese, should make him ruler of China for the lulz.

[Proctopeo]

How does everyone feel here about what's going on in Hong Kong? It's ignited a civil war between anarchists and tankies on the left lol

Hong Kong (and Macau for that matter) should be fully independent from the PRC - whether this entails full sovereignty or a return to colonial rule doesn't strictly matter.

Though China itself should be under the control of the Republic of China, not the PRC.

[Crysuko]

Probably about time for a change in Dynasty anyway.

Since the PRC keeps insisting that the Dalai Lama is Chinese, should make him ruler of China for the lulz.

It's like saying China is socialist. Utterly buggernuts

[Arumdaum]

How does everyone feel here about what's going on in Hong Kong? It's ignited a civil war between anarchists and tankies on the left lol

Hong Kong (and Macau for that matter) should be fully independent from the PRC - whether this entails full sovereignty or a return to colonial rule doesn't strictly matter.

Though China itself should be under the control of the Republic of China, not the PRC.

if i wanted all these opinions from you guys id post in the rwdt lol

[Trotskylvania]

The modern PRC is pretty much a fulfillment of all the greatest wishes of Chiang Kai-shek and the KMT. A nationalist state capitalist power devoted to Han chauvinism, Confucian values, and a reasonable return on investment

[LiberNovusAmericae]

How does everyone feel here about what's going on in Hong Kong? It's ignited a civil war between anarchists and tankies on the left lol

Hong Kong (and Macau for that matter) should be fully independent from the PRC - whether this entails full sovereignty or a return to colonial rule doesn't strictly matter.

Though China itself should be under the control of the Republic of China, not the PRC.

Agreed with this 100%.

[Arumdaum]

My ideal solution would be a democratic federalized China where the CCP has been kicked out.

But that's very unlikely to happen, to put it mildly.

Not Imperial Restoration?

Were you always a monarchist?

[Salus Maior]

Not Imperial Restoration?

Were you always a monarchist?

For most of my life, yep. To some degree or another.

[Mettaton-EX]

neither of those come anywhere near the level of the american genocide, as would be obvious if you had actually read the articles

also i'm not a radfem (???)

genocide is genocide and it refutes the ridiculous whataboutism you're using here.

proctopeo is the one who was whatabouting. i responded to this:

So you have a passive lack of care that the current-day Kurds - some of whom's ancestors participated in the Armenian genocide - are going to be genocided themselves, but you would have grievances with punishing white people by forcing them to pay reparations to the descendants of slaves because some of their ancestors participated in slavery.

Epic hypocrisy, my dude.

This is really pathetic in how far you're reaching.

Not every white person has profited off of slavery or the slave trade (unless you think Finns and Komi peoples also share slavery-guilt by some convoluted metric). Plantation owners and slave traders did, so if you can track their descendants down and they still have wealth born from slavery, then that's fair to apply reparations. I don't think it's practical to do so considering it was so long ago, but I wouldn't object if they managed to track them down and apply a tax.

The Kurds, on most of the land they live on now, was taken from Armenians and other minorities targeted by the Young Turks (a cursory look at old ethnic distributions with modern ones would show this is true). They got that land by making a deal with the Devil, as it were. And now, as it were, the Devil's come after them.

Boo Hoo.

by pointing out that every white person in multiple continents lives on land violently stolen from natives, which is directly relevant and not whataboutism

[Pasong Tirad]

Only a "tiny handful" of people deserve to be punished for owning slaves

Anyway here's why a whole ethnic group deserves to be massacred because of something ~20,000-30,000 people did - coincidentally some people from this ethnic group also got massacred but we're just gonna ignore that.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

The modern PRC is pretty much a fulfillment of all the greatest wishes of Chiang Kai-shek and the KMT. A nationalist state capitalist power devoted to Han chauvinism, Confucian values, and a reasonable return on investment

Pretty ironic to be sure, especially given that tankies find themselves on the same side of the Hong Kong issue as major western corporations. Not that Mao's vision for China was much better.

[Arumdaum]

Only a "tiny handful" of people deserve to be punished for owning slaves

Anyway here's why a whole ethnic group deserves to be massacred because of something ~20,000-30,000 people did - coincidentally some people from this ethnic group also got massacred but we're just gonna ignore that.

??

A bit confused as to what you're trying to say with the article. What part should we be reading?

[Pasong Tirad]

Only a "tiny handful" of people deserve to be punished for owning slaves

Anyway here's why a whole ethnic group deserves to be massacred because of something ~20,000-30,000 people did - coincidentally some people from this ethnic group also got massacred but we're just gonna ignore that.

??

A bit confused as to what you're trying to say with the article. What part should we be reading?

I suppose I should have specified.

According to the 1860 census, taken just before the Civil War, more than 32 percent of white families in the soon-to-be Confederate states owned slaves. Of course, this is an average, and different states had different levels of slaveholding. In Arkansas, just 20 percent of families owned slaves; in South Carolina, it was 46 percent; in Mississippi, it was 49 percent.

By most measures, this isn’t “small”—it’s roughly the same percentage of Americans who, today, hold a college degree. The large majority of slaveholding families were small farmers and not the major planters who dominate our image of “slavery.”

[Ostroeuropa]

??

A bit confused as to what you're trying to say with the article. What part should we be reading?

I suppose I should have specified.

According to the 1860 census, taken just before the Civil War, more than 32 percent of white families in the soon-to-be Confederate states owned slaves. Of course, this is an average, and different states had different levels of slaveholding. In Arkansas, just 20 percent of families owned slaves; in South Carolina, it was 46 percent; in Mississippi, it was 49 percent.

By most measures, this isn’t “small”—it’s roughly the same percentage of Americans who, today, hold a college degree. The large majority of slaveholding families were small farmers and not the major planters who dominate our image of “slavery.”

The legacy of Slavery is basically ancient history by this point. It's Jim Crow and modern racism that actually impacts modern black people.

The gap in standard of living and so on between enslaved black people and free black people closed within two generations of the emancipation proclamation. You've maybe got some black people over about 100 who actually had their social mobility and standard of living impacted by slavery. (This is because Slaves weren't allowed to own property and couldn't leave anything to their kids. But guess what. Working class black people could own *almost* nothing and leave *almost* nothing to their kids, and it doesn't take very long to earn almost nothing. Freed Slave raises a kid, born free kid is born with nothing and earns almost nothing, 2nd gen born free kid is now born in equal circumstances to a kid whose ancestors were never enslaved (I.E, kid is born with almost nothing), gap is closed.).

For most, it's Jim Crow (Also on the way out already in terms of its impact on living black people, the current generation being born is expected to not be impacted), and modern racism.

Slavery is focused on regardless because it's an easy way to demonize white people and demand direct monetary compensation in order to close a gap (A gap which no longer exists, but If we play a shell game and pretend slavery = racism and racism = slavery then you can pretend it does) in a way that seems more justified than arguing against a broad institution like the government, because with the latter you get into "Well, why just black people?".

I also think the slavery angle is focused on because having right wingers come out and say;
"You dumb liberals, keeping a people literally in chains for hundreds of years and not allowing them to keep any wealth isn't that much worse off than the way the working class actually gets treated and can be fixed very quickly. so there. It turns out if you are working class, every single one of your ancestors could have been enslaved and never paid, and provided your parents were born free you'd be no worse off than you are now. Please do not consider what this implies about capitalism." might make some people a bit too woke.

[Asherahan]

My opinion is the PRC should do to HK a Tianamen Square 2 Electric Boogaloo and restore order.

[Page]

How does everyone feel here about what's going on in Hong Kong? It's ignited a civil war between anarchists and tankies on the left lol

I support the protesters. I do believe that capitalist powers are attempting to infiltrate and exploit the movement for their own gain, but the people at the heart of the movement are fighting for their own freedom, and the government should acquiesce to all their demands.