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LWDT 8: Hitting the Marx

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Under which leaders (if any) was the Soviet Union socialist?

Lenin (1918-1924)
411
34%
Stalin (1924-1953)
223
19%
Khrushchev (1953-1964)
149
12%
Brezhnev (1964-1982)
125
10%
Gorbachev (1985-1991)
126
10%
Never
167
14%
 
Total votes : 1201

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Evil Dictators Happyland
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Posts: 3514
Founded: Aug 03, 2016
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Evil Dictators Happyland » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:58 pm

Proctopeo wrote:
Evil Dictators Happyland wrote:Since nothing you just said actually conflicts with my post, am I to assume that you agree with me?

My meaning is implied by my words.

How about, instead of doing that, you use your words and tell me exactly what you're saying?
Killer Queen has already touched this signature.

Telconi wrote:My point is that believing scientists is bad. And people ought not do this thing.

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Torrocca
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Posts: 26912
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:01 pm

Nakena wrote:
Torrocca wrote:*snip*


Since you didn replied to me, I take that you ran out of ammo. ^^


Nah, I just don't feel like bothering with the mental gymnastics needed to pretend National-"""""Anarchism""""" is Anarchist.
Communist now and forever.
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - [b]Buenaventura Durruti

"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

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Pacomia
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Posts: 4811
Founded: May 23, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Pacomia » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:01 pm

Kowani wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:The capitalist puts in far more risk into every decision he makes. The capitalist is an intellectual laborer, and the laborer below him profits when his boss decides wisely. The market ultimately decides the value of their labor in any case.

“The market decides the value of their labor.”
I didn’t know scam artists were valuable now.

oh no an authoritarian

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Torrocca
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Posts: 26912
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:02 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:The capitalist puts in far more risk into every decision he makes. The capitalist is an intellectual laborer, and the laborer below him profits when his boss decides wisely. The market ultimately decides the value of their labor in any case.


Risk? With golden parachutes? It’s great to be a capitalist; you are rewarded for success and failure.

The best to date was a ceo of home depot. He was fired for failing to meet all objectives. His punishment? Two hundred and ten million.


Golden parachutes bought from the profits made off the labor of the workers, mind you. Clearly the CEO of Home Depot took a tremendous risk in doing that.
Communist now and forever.
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - [b]Buenaventura Durruti

"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

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Evil Dictators Happyland
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Posts: 3514
Founded: Aug 03, 2016
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Evil Dictators Happyland » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:02 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Nakena wrote:
Since you didn replied to me, I take that you ran out of ammo. ^^


Nah, I just don't feel like bothering with the mental gymnastics needed to pretend National-"""""Anarchism""""" is Anarchist.

Okay, I agree with most of what you're saying here, but can you stop with the doubled-up quotation marks? One set is usually enough.
Killer Queen has already touched this signature.

Telconi wrote:My point is that believing scientists is bad. And people ought not do this thing.

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Nakena
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11524
Founded: May 06, 2017
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Nakena » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:02 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Nakena wrote:
Since you didn replied to me, I take that you ran out of ammo. ^^


Nah, I just don't feel like bothering with the mental gymnastics needed to pretend National-"""""Anarchism""""" is Anarchist.


Awwh, and here I was hoping to perform some gymnastics with you and wrestling away the anarchism from you. ^^
☯ ₴ɄⱤVłV₳Ⱡ, ₳ĐV₳₦₵Ɇ₥Ɇ₦₮, ɆVØⱠɄ₮łØ₦ ☯
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DANCE!

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Torrocca
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Posts: 26912
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:03 pm

Evil Dictators Happyland wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
Nah, I just don't feel like bothering with the mental gymnastics needed to pretend National-"""""Anarchism""""" is Anarchist.

Okay, I agree with most of what you're saying here, but can you stop with the doubled-up quotation marks? One set is usually enough.


I'm merely doing it to emphasize my point more strongly, friend. ;3
Communist now and forever.
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - [b]Buenaventura Durruti

"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

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Kowani
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Posts: 21862
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:03 pm

Pacomia wrote:
Kowani wrote:“The market decides the value of their labor.”
I didn’t know scam artists were valuable now.

oh no an authoritarian

Fear the boogeyman.
Spanish Atheist.
If an area was ours for 500 years and yours for 50 years, it should belong to us – you are merely occupiers.
If an area was yours for 500 years and ours for 50 years, it should belong to us – borders must not be changed.
If an area belonged to us 500 years ago but never since then, it should belong to us – it is the cradle of our nation.
If a majority of our people live there, it must belong to us – they must enjoy the right of self-determination.
If a minority of our people live there, it must belong to us – they must be protected against your oppression.
All of the above rules apply to us, but not to you.
Our dream of greatness is historical necessity, yours is fascism.

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Nakena
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Posts: 11524
Founded: May 06, 2017
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Nakena » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:05 pm

Kowani wrote:
Pacomia wrote:oh no an authoritarian

Fear the boogeyman.


Quite an overused boogeyman. Also I noticed how always the word authoritarian is being used instead of autocratic.
☯ ₴ɄⱤVłV₳Ⱡ, ₳ĐV₳₦₵Ɇ₥Ɇ₦₮, ɆVØⱠɄ₮łØ₦ ☯
⛤₴Ø₦₳₭ Ø₴⛤
DANCE!

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Northern Davincia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16041
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:05 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:The capitalist puts in far more risk into every decision he makes.


The Capitalist loses some money if he fucks up; the worker can easily lose everything if the Capitalist fucks up.

It's not the Capitalist taking the most risk.

The capitalist is objectively taking the most risk.
Hoppean Libertarian, Acolyte of von Mises, Protector of Our Sacred Liberties
Economic Left/Right: 9.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

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Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26912
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:06 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
The Capitalist loses some money if he fucks up; the worker can easily lose everything if the Capitalist fucks up.

It's not the Capitalist taking the most risk.

The capitalist is objectively taking the most risk.


The Capitalist isn't the one at risk of losing their home, their belongings, their family, their livelihood, etc. because of a missed paycheck, champ.
Communist now and forever.
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - [b]Buenaventura Durruti

"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

User avatar
Pacomia
Senator
 
Posts: 4811
Founded: May 23, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Pacomia » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:09 pm

Kowani wrote:
Pacomia wrote:oh no an authoritarian

Fear the boogeyman.

I thought the boogeyman was a minarchist
This nation is based on (a slightly more extreme version of) my IRL opinions, and I answer issues accordingly.
Current accidental policies: No Sex
Results of political various tests I took meme awesome
Progressive capitalism gang

GLORY TO CASCADIA, NUCLEAR ENERGY IS A GOOD THING!
This user is a male.

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Nakena
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11524
Founded: May 06, 2017
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Nakena » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:10 pm

Pacomia wrote:
Kowani wrote:Fear the boogeyman.

I thought the boogeyman was a minarchist


Nah its now National-Anarchism. ^^
☯ ₴ɄⱤVłV₳Ⱡ, ₳ĐV₳₦₵Ɇ₥Ɇ₦₮, ɆVØⱠɄ₮łØ₦ ☯
⛤₴Ø₦₳₭ Ø₴⛤
DANCE!

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Kowani
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21862
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:11 pm

Nakena wrote:
Kowani wrote:Fear the boogeyman.


Quite an overused boogeyman. Also I noticed how always the word authoritarian is being used instead of autocratic.

I don’t like the word Autocrat. It feels too monarchical.
Spanish Atheist.
If an area was ours for 500 years and yours for 50 years, it should belong to us – you are merely occupiers.
If an area was yours for 500 years and ours for 50 years, it should belong to us – borders must not be changed.
If an area belonged to us 500 years ago but never since then, it should belong to us – it is the cradle of our nation.
If a majority of our people live there, it must belong to us – they must enjoy the right of self-determination.
If a minority of our people live there, it must belong to us – they must be protected against your oppression.
All of the above rules apply to us, but not to you.
Our dream of greatness is historical necessity, yours is fascism.

User avatar
Evil Dictators Happyland
Senator
 
Posts: 3514
Founded: Aug 03, 2016
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Evil Dictators Happyland » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:12 pm

Nakena wrote:
Pacomia wrote:I thought the boogeyman was a minarchist


Nah its now National-Anarchism. ^^

Isn't national anarchism a meme ideology?
Killer Queen has already touched this signature.

Telconi wrote:My point is that believing scientists is bad. And people ought not do this thing.

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Pacomia
Senator
 
Posts: 4811
Founded: May 23, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Pacomia » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:12 pm

Kowani wrote:
Nakena wrote:
Quite an overused boogeyman. Also I noticed how always the word authoritarian is being used instead of autocratic.

I don’t like the word Autocrat. It feels too monarchical.

That’s actually why I don’t say it
This nation is based on (a slightly more extreme version of) my IRL opinions, and I answer issues accordingly.
Current accidental policies: No Sex
Results of political various tests I took meme awesome
Progressive capitalism gang

GLORY TO CASCADIA, NUCLEAR ENERGY IS A GOOD THING!
This user is a male.

User avatar
Northern Davincia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16041
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:13 pm

Kowani wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:The capitalist puts in far more risk into every decision he makes. The capitalist is an intellectual laborer, and the laborer below him profits when his boss decides wisely. The market ultimately decides the value of their labor in any case.

“The market decides the value of their labor.”
I didn’t know scam artists were valuable now.

Thieves don't generate value, and certainly not through legitimate means. The market decides the value of what they steal but their labor is functionally worthless.
Torrocca wrote:


The Capitalist isn't the one at risk of losing their home, their belongings, their family, their livelihood, etc. because of a missed paycheck, champ.

Social mobility goes both ways, even for the bourgeoisie.
Hoppean Libertarian, Acolyte of von Mises, Protector of Our Sacred Liberties
Economic Left/Right: 9.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

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Evil Dictators Happyland
Senator
 
Posts: 3514
Founded: Aug 03, 2016
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Evil Dictators Happyland » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:14 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Kowani wrote:“The market decides the value of their labor.”
I didn’t know scam artists were valuable now.

Thieves don't generate value, and certainly not through legitimate means. The market decides the value of what they steal but their labor is functionally worthless.

Isn't that the basic premise of Marxism?
Killer Queen has already touched this signature.

Telconi wrote:My point is that believing scientists is bad. And people ought not do this thing.

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Northern Davincia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16041
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:16 pm

Evil Dictators Happyland wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:Thieves don't generate value, and certainly not through legitimate means. The market decides the value of what they steal but their labor is functionally worthless.

Isn't that the basic premise of Marxism?

I suppose, but economically the Marxist interpretation is false. The bourgeois generate value from risk-taking, which is why the total output of wealth now is greater than ever before.
Hoppean Libertarian, Acolyte of von Mises, Protector of Our Sacred Liberties
Economic Left/Right: 9.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26912
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:16 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Kowani wrote:“The market decides the value of their labor.”
I didn’t know scam artists were valuable now.

Thieves don't generate value, and certainly not through legitimate means. The market decides the value of what they steal but their labor is functionally worthless.


Good to know you hate Capitalism.

Torrocca wrote:
The Capitalist isn't the one at risk of losing their home, their belongings, their family, their livelihood, etc. because of a missed paycheck, champ.

Social mobility goes both ways, even for the bourgeoisie.


Neat, they can go cry their crocodile tears at the top of their penthouse into their stacks of $100s.

They still don't have it nearly as bad as the working class.
Communist now and forever.
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - [b]Buenaventura Durruti

"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

User avatar
Evil Dictators Happyland
Senator
 
Posts: 3514
Founded: Aug 03, 2016
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Evil Dictators Happyland » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:22 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Evil Dictators Happyland wrote:Isn't that the basic premise of Marxism?

I suppose, but economically the Marxist interpretation is false. The bourgeois generate value from risk-taking, which is why the total output of wealth now is greater than ever before.

Conventional thieves take risks every time they steal from others. If you take someone's wallet, for example, you risk being sent to prison.
And I'd like to point out here that GDP, even per-capita, isn't a very good metric for measuring economic success compared to things like HDI and quality of life. Money is worthless on its own, we should instead measure how that money is used to benefit people.
Killer Queen has already touched this signature.

Telconi wrote:My point is that believing scientists is bad. And people ought not do this thing.

User avatar
Northern Davincia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16041
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:26 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:Thieves don't generate value, and certainly not through legitimate means. The market decides the value of what they steal but their labor is functionally worthless.


Good to know you hate Capitalism.



Neat, they can go cry their crocodile tears at the top of their penthouse into their stacks of $100s.

They still don't have it nearly as bad as the working class.

I can't hate what keeps me fed. So long as intellectual labor is worth more than drudgery (because the former is rarer than the latter), there will be a disparity of wealth.
Hoppean Libertarian, Acolyte of von Mises, Protector of Our Sacred Liberties
Economic Left/Right: 9.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26912
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:27 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
Good to know you hate Capitalism.



Neat, they can go cry their crocodile tears at the top of their penthouse into their stacks of $100s.

They still don't have it nearly as bad as the working class.

I can't hate what keeps me fed.


You were literally talking about being in financial ruin a few months ago. You'd be more fed receiving the full value of your labor, not a value assigned to you by some Capitalist fuckwit.
Communist now and forever.
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - [b]Buenaventura Durruti

"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

User avatar
Evil Dictators Happyland
Senator
 
Posts: 3514
Founded: Aug 03, 2016
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Evil Dictators Happyland » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:31 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
Good to know you hate Capitalism.



Neat, they can go cry their crocodile tears at the top of their penthouse into their stacks of $100s.

They still don't have it nearly as bad as the working class.

I can't hate what keeps me fed.

If you lived in a communist state, would you oppose the ruling government?
Killer Queen has already touched this signature.

Telconi wrote:My point is that believing scientists is bad. And people ought not do this thing.

User avatar
Cekoviu
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16102
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cekoviu » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:32 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:I can't hate what keeps me fed.


You were literally talking about being in financial ruin a few months ago. You'd be more fed receiving the full value of your labor, not a value assigned to you by some Capitalist fuckwit.

He's a temporarily embarrassed billionaire, not in "financial ruin." God.
RWDT - REST IN POWER
Market socialist, David Hume fangirl, and massive Tuvaboo. Moderate SWERF & traditionalist SJW. Non-denominational Christian, influenced by Orthodoxy and certain Protestant currents.
/tʃɛ'koʊ.vi:.ju:/ (check-OH-vee-you)

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