LWDT 8: Hitting the Marx

[United Muscovite Nations]

... I'm pretty certain there's no feasible way of getting rid of religion. Even if you somehow abolished the biggest religions, people would still seek out some form of faith, meaning, and purpose in life or another that goes beyond material conditions; whether that came from new ideas of religious or spiritual beliefs or came from ones already existing would be irrelevant, people are still going to seek out answers to questions that go far beyond whatever we experience materially, even under Socialism or Communism.

There’s this thing called education. It’s very good at removing said desires by providing answers.

It was education that caused me to become Christian, and I know many others who have become religious because of higher education. There's a famous anecdote about how a philosophy program at Cambridge was actually shut down because so many of its students converted to Catholicism.

[Kowani]

The big three are poverty, lack of education, and cultural insularity.

I come from an upper-middle-class family, have a college education, and am not culturally insular. I still believe in a religion. Some people will be religious regardless of any circumstances. Some will be atheists regardless of any circumstances. And those are both fine. The only major problems happen when a single religion gets much bigger than all the others and starts persecuting smaller religions.

Yes. These are general trends. They are not applicable to literally every person.

*Atheism is technically a religion by some standards, but that's not the point.

Very bad standards.

[Soviet Tankistan]

I take it you're being silly?

Just placing the emphasis on the engineering part rather than the social part. More fun that way.
Also, I'm upset that nobody caught the fact that Hooke's Law is about springs and has nothing to do with diodes.

I saw it, but was it worth an answer?

[Hanafuridake]

…No, I just want to abolish religion.

So me not wanting mosques to be allowed to be built is bad.

But straight out abolishing all religion is good.

[Soviet Tankistan]

I think myself very clever for paasing him in regards to the speed at which he posts social engineering, I must now match the frequency. When that is done, we will have our world state completed by ny own hand in no less than 5000 years.

I think you're a tad delusional.

I think you're missing the sarcasm.

[Kubra]

However, as all three of these things decrease, so has religion. It’s a pretty clear trend.

1) Also, cite that claim.


Beyond that, it ensures that people won’t try it again. Everything with the end goal of limiting the desire to rebel, rather than outright crushing rebellion.


2) It’s not like there were a crapton of other factors.

1) About half the wealthiest countries in the world are fundamentalist Islamic countries, and some of the best educated countries in the world are countries like Lithuania, Poland, Greece, and Cyprus, where higher education and religiosity is very common.

2) Nevertheless, many of the most educated people in history were very religious. Arguably, religious people created modern education.

Oil money tho
like the middle east ain't exactly a research powerhouse, you know as well as I do where the money is coming from

[United Muscovite Nations]

1) About half the wealthiest countries in the world are fundamentalist Islamic countries, and some of the best educated countries in the world are countries like Lithuania, Poland, Greece, and Cyprus, where higher education and religiosity is very common.

2) Nevertheless, many of the most educated people in history were very religious. Arguably, religious people created modern education.

Oil money tho
like the middle east ain't exactly a research powerhouse, you know as well as I do where the money is coming from

Nevertheless, they're wealth hasn't caused them to decide that religion doesn't serve a purpose in their society, which I assume is what Kowani thinks will happen as we become wealthier.

[Kubra]

Oil money tho
like the middle east ain't exactly a research powerhouse, you know as well as I do where the money is coming from

Nevertheless, they're wealth hasn't caused them to decide that religion doesn't serve a purpose in their society, which I assume is what Kowani thinks will happen as we become wealthier.

Sure but I mean there's a difference from having a thing that just makes money and having to go the school and learn shit to make a money making thing
I mean I'm not necessarily disputing the point, merely the particular case.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Nevertheless, they're wealth hasn't caused them to decide that religion doesn't serve a purpose in their society, which I assume is what Kowani thinks will happen as we become wealthier.

Sure but I mean there's a difference from having a thing that just makes money and having to go the school and learn shit to make a money making thing
I mean I'm not necessarily disputing the point, merely the particular case.

That is true, but you also have countries like Poland, Lithuania, Ireland, and Italy, which are relatively religious countries that have high levels of education.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

…No, I just want to abolish religion.

So me not wanting mosques to be allowed to be built is bad.

But straight out abolishing all religion is good.

Why don't you want to allow Mosques to be built?

[Kubra]

Sure but I mean there's a difference from having a thing that just makes money and having to go the school and learn shit to make a money making thing
I mean I'm not necessarily disputing the point, merely the particular case.

That is true, but you also have countries like Poland, Lithuania, Ireland, and Italy, which are relatively religious countries that have high levels of education.

again, not really disputing the point, merely the particular case of the middle east.
We always gotta be reminded that oil money is bad money, man. Nothing makes folks dumber than getting rich off oil.

[United Muscovite Nations]

That is true, but you also have countries like Poland, Lithuania, Ireland, and Italy, which are relatively religious countries that have high levels of education.

again, not really disputing the point, merely the particular case of the middle east.
We always gotta be reminded that oil money is bad money, man. Nothing makes folks dumber than getting rich off oil.

Yes, I'm aware, I actually did a really long ass report on oil money for my Mid East politics class, and then had to discuss it for two hours with the Professor, whose research focuses on oil wealth.

[First American Empire]

That'll also work well. It's not as immediate as I'd like, but it'll have the UK begging to be let back in the EU in only a few years. (Assuming that the UK has actually worked out how to leave by then.)

Beyond that, it ensures that people won’t try it again. Everything with the end goal of limiting the desire to rebel, rather than outright crushing rebellion.

Exactly. Brexit will also serve as an example to other EU members to show them why they shouldn't leave.

Though this doesn't solve the problem of countries that stay in the EU but intentionally break EU laws that they don't like. The EU should still enforce martial law in places like Hungary, for example.

(To other people reading this: This conversation isn't satire. I'm completely serious.)

[Kubra]

again, not really disputing the point, merely the particular case of the middle east.
We always gotta be reminded that oil money is bad money, man. Nothing makes folks dumber than getting rich off oil.

Yes, I'm aware, I actually did a really long ass report on oil money for my Mid East politics class, and then had to discuss it for two hours with the Professor, whose research focuses on oil wealth.

Oh yeah you in college? Nice bro, here's hoping you have a good term
and it's worth noting it's not even necessarily a middle eastern problem, most folks can go loopy from the stuff, from Venezuela to Alberta to (a lesser degree) Scandinavia.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Yes, I'm aware, I actually did a really long ass report on oil money for my Mid East politics class, and then had to discuss it for two hours with the Professor, whose research focuses on oil wealth.

Oh yeah you in college? Nice bro, here's hoping you have a good term
and it's worth noting it's not even necessarily a middle eastern problem, most folks can go loopy from the stuff, from Venezuela to Alberta to (a lesser degree) Scandinavia.

Yeah, if all goes well, I'll graduate this semester with a BS in History and International Relations.

[Kubra]

Oh yeah you in college? Nice bro, here's hoping you have a good term
and it's worth noting it's not even necessarily a middle eastern problem, most folks can go loopy from the stuff, from Venezuela to Alberta to (a lesser degree) Scandinavia.

Yeah, if all goes well, I'll graduate this semester with a BS in History and International Relations.

Oh shit you graduating???? Damn I've been forgetting the passage of time, we've all been on here for quite some time, no?
That aside congrats man, that's a good degree. What's your plans after grad?

[United Muscovite Nations]

Yeah, if all goes well, I'll graduate this semester with a BS in History and International Relations.

Oh shit you graduating???? Damn I've been forgetting the passage of time, we've all been on here for quite some time, no?
That aside congrats man, that's a good degree. What's your plans after grad?

I don't know, really. I'd like to move to Nashville, maybe get a job there and start graduate work, but I'm not sure I can afford it because rent is so expensive there.

[Kubra]

Oh shit you graduating???? Damn I've been forgetting the passage of time, we've all been on here for quite some time, no?
That aside congrats man, that's a good degree. What's your plans after grad?

I don't know, really. I'd like to move to Nashville, maybe get a job there and start graduate work, but I'm not sure I can afford it because rent is so expensive there.

Why not bum around asia for a bit doing the usual non-jobs for new grads? Ain't much for a resume, but it's an experience, y'know?

[Kowani]

There’s this thing called education. It’s very good at removing said desires by providing answers.

And what sort of education answers the questions of existence? Of life's ultimate purpose? Of why we're here? Of the possibility of an afterlife?

Science doesn't have all the answers, and certainly few, if any at all that satisfy the big questions of existentialism. People are never going to be satisfied with the idea that life is simply about living, producing offspring, and then dying. Unless you changed the fundamental values of human nature so drastically that the end result couldn't be called human, you're never going to eradicate these ideas that are so prevalent across the entirety of humanity.

Cough. The idea is that life is about living. The rest is window dressing. The answer to existentialism is absurdism, not ignorance.

Oil money tho
like the middle east ain't exactly a research powerhouse, you know as well as I do where the money is coming from

Nevertheless, they're wealth hasn't caused them to decide that religion doesn't serve a purpose in their society, which I assume is what Kowani thinks will happen as we become wealthier.

There’s a difference between wealth and poverty. And these places are pretty culturally insular, so...

However, as all three of these things decrease, so has religion. It’s a pretty clear trend.

1) Also, cite that claim.


Beyond that, it ensures that people won’t try it again. Everything with the end goal of limiting the desire to rebel, rather than outright crushing rebellion.


2) It’s not like there were a crapton of other factors.

1) About half the wealthiest countries in the world are fundamentalist Islamic countries,

Wealth inequality and high death rates. And yeah…education.

and some of the best educated countries in the world are countries like Lithuania, Poland, Greece, and Cyprus, where higher education and religiosity is very common.

Alright, Greece and Poland aren’t exactly fiscal paradises. So, that’s one of the three. Lithuania isn’t the most open place, either. It’s not xenophobic to the same way Hungary is, but the whole demographic isn’t quite a melting pot. And even then, religion has been decreasing over time (if at a glacial pace.) As for Cyprus... I have this theory that says that having a foreign power come in by force and steal half your country, at least partially because of religion, might make you cling to it even harder.

2) Nevertheless, many of the most educated people in history were very religious. Arguably, religious people created modern education.

Sure. But, well, trends are trends.

…No, I just want to abolish religion.

So me not wanting mosques to be allowed to be built is bad.

But straight out abolishing all religion is good.

You know this thing called logical consistency? You should try it.

[Torrocca]

And what sort of education answers the questions of existence? Of life's ultimate purpose? Of why we're here? Of the possibility of an afterlife?

Science doesn't have all the answers, and certainly few, if any at all that satisfy the big questions of existentialism. People are never going to be satisfied with the idea that life is simply about living, producing offspring, and then dying. Unless you changed the fundamental values of human nature so drastically that the end result couldn't be called human, you're never going to eradicate these ideas that are so prevalent across the entirety of humanity.

Cough. The idea is that life is about living. The rest is window dressing. The answer to existentialism is absurdism, not ignorance.

And what the fuck's the meaning behind living? Why is your idea of what living is meant to be supposed to be the only valid interpretation? Why can't or why shouldn't people find faith or belief in something that exists beyond any scientific or material knowledge that gives us a greater purpose? Inquiring into such possibilities regarding our existence rather than outright dismissing them - as you do - isn't ignorance, it's a pursuit of knowledge.

[Cappuccina]

…No, I just want to abolish religion.

So me not wanting mosques to be allowed to be built is bad.

But straight out abolishing all religion is good.

I can't really talk here either.

[Kowani]

Cough. The idea is that life is about living. The rest is window dressing. The answer to existentialism is absurdism, not ignorance.

And what the fuck's the meaning behind living?

Whatever one desires it to be.

Why is your idea of what living is meant to be supposed to be the only valid interpretation?

That’s odd. I never claimed it was.

Why can't or why shouldn't people find faith or belief in something that exists beyond any scientific or material knowledge that gives us a greater purpose?

When you find proof, let me know. I’ll be waiting. Religion has had thousands of years to prove its claims, and it still can’t do better than “wait until you die.”

Inquiring into such possibilities regarding our existence rather than outright dismissing them - as you do - isn't ignorance, it's a pursuit of knowledge.

Oh, no. You see, if it was actually in the pursuit of knowledge, it would be provable. With, you know. Evidence. As the majority of the religious people on this board will be happy to inform you, it is a matter of faith, not evidence.

[United Muscovite Nations]

And what the fuck's the meaning behind living?

Whatever one desires it to be.

What if it's religion?

[Grand Proudhonia]

Whatever one desires it to be.

What if it's religion?

One could argue that religion is not a choice in most cases

[Kowani]

Whatever one desires it to be.

What if it's religion?

It is possible to find meaning in being wrong, yes.