LWDT 8: Hitting the Marx

[Proctopeo]

Trying to answer the LeftValues test as a right-libertarian was a mistake

Though the dichotomy between "scientific" and "utopian" makes little sense. Sure, Marxist thought is often described as "scientific", but it's still definitely utopian. So, really, it's "scientific utopianism" vs "emotional utopianism", not "science" vs "utopia".

Lol, you're a utopian socialist.

My ideology maps poorly to leftist thought I think.

[Cekoviu]

I identify as a democratic socialist, so...

I support illiberal democracy and statism, which has 8values place me as a a democratic socialist leaning towards state socialism. I do not support democratic socialism in the typically suggested forms. I believe a multiparty system of parties with some ideas in common would benefit prevention of many factions and divisions in the party and a federal system should be implemented.

Speaking of federal systems, how does the Left-Wing Discussion thread believe international politics and federalism should relate? I believe that many multinational republics should exist with amiable relations rather than inernational councils governing on the principle of nation and state equivalence such as the UN or EU.

Regional federations like the EU ought to have less power, but are a generally good concept. The UN should have increased power and more democratic principles. However, all countries should still maintain sovereignty.

[First American Empire]

I gave it a whirl. I might be decentralist, but I'm certainly not an anarchist. Apparently, if I were further left, I'd be a utopian socialist. Why they don't have social democracy beats me.

Because social democracy isn't actually leftism?

How. Dare. You.

[Kowani]

Because I'm an absolute nerd, I also went ahead and did the LeftValues test that I just learned exists, well after the actual discussion on these tests died off. Eco-Anarchism's a pretty valid description of my beliefs, ngl.

This is interesting. I'm a SocDem, but I'm just far enough to the left for this quiz to be relevant to me. Here's my score: https://leftvalues.github.io/results.ht ... 5.4&f=47.1

Reform/Revolution: In terms of politics, I'm okay with either reform or revolution. The left needs to use any means necessary to win, and that includes winning elections. In economics, I would much prefer to reform capitalism to make it actually functional. If that isn't an option, getting rid of capitalism altogether would be less harmful than allowing it to wreck everything in its death throes.

This should really be two separate axes, one for revolutionary and reformist means, and one for how radical the end goal is. I'd be a moderate on the first scale and a reformist on the second, but the test as it is combines them and makes it confusing. As it was, I got 72.9% Reformist.

Scientific/Utopian: I got 75% Scientific. I agree with a lot of Dialectical Materialist thought, even if I don't agree with some of its conclusions.

Central/Decentral: I hate monopolies, whether state controlled or privately owned. Getting a high Decentral score was obviously going to happen. I got 81.2%.

International/National: 97.7% International. I'm more internationalist than basically anyone on the forum, so it's no surprise that I got a score higher than Torra's.

Party/Union: I got a Party score of 85.4%, which surprised me more than anything else on this test. I think both parties and unions are very important, though parties are better at large-scale change.

Industry/Ecology: I got 52.9% Ecology, though none of these tests measure my environmental views well. They all forget that flooding the world's coastlines will be bad for global industry and living standards. There is no conflict between environmentalism and high living standards because environmentalism guarantees the highest living standards.

Normally, I’m more internationalist than literally anyone, since I desire a worldstate. Not sure what knocked me down.

[Proctopeo]

I support illiberal democracy and statism, which has 8values place me as a a democratic socialist leaning towards state socialism. I do not support democratic socialism in the typically suggested forms. I believe a multiparty system of parties with some ideas in common would benefit prevention of many factions and divisions in the party and a federal system should be implemented.

Speaking of federal systems, how does the Left-Wing Discussion thread believe international politics and federalism should relate? I believe that many multinational republics should exist with amiable relations rather than inernational councils governing on the principle of nation and state equivalence such as the UN or EU.

Regional federations like the EU ought to have less power, but are a generally good concept.

Partially agree. The EU definitely needs less power, but I think the European Economic Community should've never expanded beyond being a trade bloc and the EU should revert to that.

The UN should have increased power and more democratic principles.

In its current state, that's a terrible idea. They're corrupt and stupid, giving them more power is a recipe for disaster.

However, all countries should still maintain sovereignty.

Full sovereignty.

[Cekoviu]

The UN should have increased power and more democratic principles.

In its current state, that's a terrible idea. They're corrupt and stupid, giving them more power is a recipe for disaster.

Kind of the point of increasing direct citizen involvement and democratizing the institution...

[Proctopeo]

In its current state, that's a terrible idea. They're corrupt and stupid, giving them more power is a recipe for disaster.

Kind of the point of increasing direct citizen involvement and democratizing the institution...

On the global scale, that's basically a pipe dream. Or a recipe for making the UN even more paralyzed than it is, which, while not bad, giving them the pretense of more power is still a bad move.

[Kowani]

Regional federations like the EU ought to have less power, but are a generally good concept.

Partially agree. The EU definitely needs less power, but I think the European Economic Community should've never expanded beyond being a trade bloc and the EU should revert to that.

Nopetty nope nope.

[Pacomia]

Did they add 13 questions and a new axis just today?

[United Muscovite Nations]

I support illiberal democracy and statism, which has 8values place me as a a democratic socialist leaning towards state socialism. I do not support democratic socialism in the typically suggested forms. I believe a multiparty system of parties with some ideas in common would benefit prevention of many factions and divisions in the party and a federal system should be implemented.

Speaking of federal systems, how does the Left-Wing Discussion thread believe international politics and federalism should relate? I believe that many multinational republics should exist with amiable relations rather than inernational councils governing on the principle of nation and state equivalence such as the UN or EU.

Regional federations like the EU ought to have less power, but are a generally good concept. The UN should have increased power and more democratic principles. However, all countries should still maintain sovereignty.

Disagree. The larger a political entity, the less power individuals have over the political decisions that affect them.

[Torrocca]

Huh, so that LeftValues thing literally just added a "Conservative vs. Progressive" axis and 12 new questions, so I redid it real quick and this is the result.

Interestingly, I got a higher revolutionary, decentralist, and internationalist score, a lower scientific score, a slightly lower union score (oof), and a lower environmentalist score (bigger oof). The progressive score's pretty neato though, if not pretty low, and it's still got me pinged as an Eco-Anarchist which, again, is super valid.

[First American Empire]

This is interesting. I'm a SocDem, but I'm just far enough to the left for this quiz to be relevant to me. Here's my score: https://leftvalues.github.io/results.ht ... 5.4&f=47.1

Reform/Revolution: In terms of politics, I'm okay with either reform or revolution. The left needs to use any means necessary to win, and that includes winning elections. In economics, I would much prefer to reform capitalism to make it actually functional. If that isn't an option, getting rid of capitalism altogether would be less harmful than allowing it to wreck everything in its death throes.

This should really be two separate axes, one for revolutionary and reformist means, and one for how radical the end goal is. I'd be a moderate on the first scale and a reformist on the second, but the test as it is combines them and makes it confusing. As it was, I got 72.9% Reformist.

Scientific/Utopian: I got 75% Scientific. I agree with a lot of Dialectical Materialist thought, even if I don't agree with some of its conclusions.

Central/Decentral: I hate monopolies, whether state controlled or privately owned. Getting a high Decentral score was obviously going to happen. I got 81.2%.

International/National: 97.7% International. I'm more internationalist than basically anyone on the forum, so it's no surprise that I got a score higher than Torra's.

Party/Union: I got a Party score of 85.4%, which surprised me more than anything else on this test. I think both parties and unions are very important, though parties are better at large-scale change.

Industry/Ecology: I got 52.9% Ecology, though none of these tests measure my environmental views well. They all forget that flooding the world's coastlines will be bad for global industry and living standards. There is no conflict between environmentalism and high living standards because environmentalism guarantees the highest living standards.

Normally, I’m more internationalist than literally anyone, since I desire a worldstate. Not sure what knocked me down.

I want a worldstate too. And this quiz has sufficient room on the internationalism axis to show who wants a worldstate more. (Spoiler alert: It's me.)

[Pacomia]

Huh, so that LeftValues thing literally just added a "Conservative vs. Progressive" axis and 12 new questions, so I redid it real quick and this is the result.

Interestingly, I got a higher revolutionary, decentralist, and internationalist score, a lower scientific score, a slightly lower union score (oof), and a lower environmentalist score (bigger oof). The progressive score's pretty neato though, if not pretty low, and it's still got me pinged as an Eco-Anarchist which, again, is super valid.

Ugh, I don’t want to take it again. I wonder what’ll happen.

[Torrocca]

Huh, so that LeftValues thing literally just added a "Conservative vs. Progressive" axis and 12 new questions, so I redid it real quick and this is the result.

Interestingly, I got a higher revolutionary, decentralist, and internationalist score, a lower scientific score, a slightly lower union score (oof), and a lower environmentalist score (bigger oof). The progressive score's pretty neato though, if not pretty low, and it's still got me pinged as an Eco-Anarchist which, again, is super valid.

Ugh, I don’t want to take it again. I wonder what’ll happen.

But you have to feed your addiction to political tests. Go on. Dew it. You know you want to.

...

[Kowani]

Normally, I’m more internationalist than literally anyone, since I desire a worldstate. Not sure what knocked me down.

I want a worldstate too. And this quiz has sufficient room on the internationalism axis to show who wants a worldstate more. (Spoiler alert: It's me.)

It was probably the regional federations. I view them as the first step to global integration.

[Proctopeo]

Partially agree. The EU definitely needs less power, but I think the European Economic Community should've never expanded beyond being a trade bloc and the EU should revert to that.

Nopetty nope nope.

Why not?

[Soviet Tankistan]

https://leftvalues.github.io/results.ht ... 0.0&g=33.9

Progressivism results. The rest in blank as I skipped through.

[United Muscovite Nations]

I retook it as well, still eco-anarchist, but some slight variation: https://leftvalues.github.io/results.ht ... 9.4&g=87.5

[Pacomia]

Retook

https://leftvalues.github.io/results.ht ... 3.8&g=44.6

So I’m a utopian socialist now, which is wrong.

[Proctopeo]

Regional federations like the EU ought to have less power, but are a generally good concept. The UN should have increased power and more democratic principles. However, all countries should still maintain sovereignty.

Disagree. The larger a political entity, the less power individuals have over the political decisions that affect them.

I agree, though the extent to which we believe this probably varies.
I think large-scale political entities can exist, but should do less/be less centralized as they get larger. At the global scale, all there really has to be is a flag and a compendium of lower-level entities, so what's going on exactly can be roughly tracked but not interfered with.

[Soviet Tankistan]

I want a worldstate too. And this quiz has sufficient room on the internationalism axis to show who wants a worldstate more. (Spoiler alert: It's me.)

It was probably the regional federations. I view them as the first step to global integration.

A world state would be impossible to manage regardless. You cannot control everyone and there is always be a rogue nation threatening unity.

[Cekoviu]

Redid the test. Their scoring method and questions are still really weird if you're not a full-on socialist.

[Kowani]

It was probably the regional federations. I view them as the first step to global integration.

A world state would be impossible to manage regardless. You cannot control everyone and there is always be a rogue nation threatening unity.

You have no idea the efforts I’m ready to undertake.

[Nakena]

A world state would be impossible to manage regardless. You cannot control everyone and there is always be a rogue nation threatening unity.

You have no idea the efforts I’m ready to undertake.

You need qualified personal though.

*sharpens sword*

[Torrocca]

It was probably the regional federations. I view them as the first step to global integration.

A world state would be impossible to manage regardless. You cannot control everyone and there is always be a rogue nation threatening unity.

Imagine caring about controlling people.