LWDT 8: Hitting the Marx

[Surkiea II]

>Implying that Christian theocracy is bad.

It is.

>Implying that Christian theocracy is bad.

It is bad.

Wrong.

That's why it's failed every time it's been tried.

But I forgot, "not real communism/socialism".

I love it when people recycle old arguments like this... their stupidity is almost cute to me

Lol a leftist calling other people stupid.

[Cekoviu]

Nice.

The type of socialism I support doesn't really work on a nationwide scale. Scandinavia's alright. I don't know much about Bolivia.

Bolivia's... not necessarily in the best shape, but it's doing alright. HDI's been going up, poverty's been decreasing, the economy's been going up, and the Movement for Socialism party (which has held power since 2005 under a system of free elections) has by and large been fulfilling its promises to the people of Bolivia. It has its wayward problems like any country does, but it's undeniable that they're trying to make the best out of what they have.

I heard that their 2019 GDP is projected to be half of what it was in 2018 due to the fires, so the economy is maybe not too great.

[Cerinda]

Nice.

The type of socialism I support doesn't really work on a nationwide scale. Scandinavia's alright. I don't know much about Bolivia.

The best socialism doesn't have a state

*Glares at the tankies*

At least state socialist countries can beat opposing sides in a war.

*Looks at revolutionary Catalonia and Ukraine.*

[Torrocca]

Bolivia's... not necessarily in the best shape, but it's doing alright. HDI's been going up, poverty's been decreasing, the economy's been going up, and the Movement for Socialism party (which has held power since 2005 under a system of free elections) has by and large been fulfilling its promises to the people of Bolivia. It has its wayward problems like any country does, but it's undeniable that they're trying to make the best out of what they have.

I heard that their 2019 GDP is projected to be half of what it was in 2018 due to the fires, so the economy is maybe not too great.

Oh, shit, yeah, that's probably gonna fuck them over hard. I hadn't even heard about that; hopefully it won't hit their economy too hard. At the very least, there's some good coming from the fact that they're taking to combating the fires the best they can, unlike a certain Fascist-led neighbor to their northeast.

[Kowani]

It is.

It is bad.

Wrong.

I love it when people recycle old arguments like this... their stupidity is almost cute to me

Lol a leftist calling other people stupid.

Compelling.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

Like any hard left regime, Bolivia's president does resort to censorship.

You plan on providing some proof to that claim?

https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom ... 17/bolivia

https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom ... 15/bolivia
Not as bad as I was expecting, admittedly, but that doesn't mean it is not a problem.

[Torrocca]

The best socialism doesn't have a state

*Glares at the tankies*

At least state socialist countries can beat opposing sides in a war.

*Looks at revolutionary Catalonia and Ukraine.*

Catalonia and Ukraine? You mean the two places that were directly dicked over by the Soviets, who abandoned unity and solidarity with their comrades in favor of power?

[Cekoviu]

I heard that their 2019 GDP is projected to be half of what it was in 2018 due to the fires, so the economy is maybe not too great.

Oh, shit, yeah, that's probably gonna fuck them over hard. I hadn't even heard about that; hopefully it won't hit their economy too hard. At the very least, there's some good coming from the fact that they're taking to combating the fires the best they can, unlike a certain Fascist-led neighbor to their northeast.

Here's a source: https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/govern ... reak-havoc
Just wanted to make sure I wasn't lying, since I heard it from a friend rather than a source.

[Torrocca]

You plan on providing some proof to that claim?

https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom ... 17/bolivia

https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom ... 15/bolivia
Not as bad as I was expecting, admittedly, but that doesn't mean it is not a problem.

So, from what I'm reading on that, it's not the best it could be, but the data shows a consistent amount of improvement in that regard. That's not that bad, despite being a problem, and pretty much falls in line with what I said earlier about Bolivia's overall current situation.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom ... 17/bolivia

https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom ... 15/bolivia
Not as bad as I was expecting, admittedly, but that doesn't mean it is not a problem.

So, from what I'm reading on that, it's not the best it could be, but the data shows a consistent amount of improvement in that regard. That's not that bad, despite being a problem, and pretty much falls in line with what I said earlier about Bolivia's overall current situation.

Some of that president's actions are questionable though. On the plus side, he doesn't seem anywhere as bad as Maduro.

[Torrocca]

Oh, shit, yeah, that's probably gonna fuck them over hard. I hadn't even heard about that; hopefully it won't hit their economy too hard. At the very least, there's some good coming from the fact that they're taking to combating the fires the best they can, unlike a certain Fascist-led neighbor to their northeast.

Here's a source: https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/govern ... reak-havoc
Just wanted to make sure I wasn't lying, since I heard it from a friend rather than a source.

No worries, you're all good. :3

[Cerinda]

At least state socialist countries can beat opposing sides in a war.

*Looks at revolutionary Catalonia and Ukraine.*

Catalonia and Ukraine? You mean the two places that were directly dicked over by the Soviets, who abandoned unity and solidarity with their comrades in favor of power?

Well that's from the Anarchist perspective, if you ask the Marxists then it was Makhno's forces who attacked Red Army units after they defeated the whites. And with Catalonia, some sources have said that it was the CNT-FAI who attacked other republican forces first, but I guess we'll never know the full truth about it.

[Torrocca]

Catalonia and Ukraine? You mean the two places that were directly dicked over by the Soviets, who abandoned unity and solidarity with their comrades in favor of power?

Well that's from the Anarchist perspective, if you ask the Marxists then it was Makhno's forces who attacked Red Army units after they defeated the whites.

It's not a matter of who's perspective tells the truth, it's a matter of facts; the Bolsheviks immediately turned on Makhno and Revolutionary Ukraine as a whole after the Whites were ousted.

And with Catalonia, some sources have said that it was the CNT-FAI who attacked other republican forces first, but I guess we'll never know the full truth about it.

The Stalinists quite literally fucked over Revolutionary Catalonia and everyone else in the Republic who didn't follow lockstep with Moscow's decrees.

[Bear Stearns]

Leftists: who is better, Donald Trump or George W. Bush?

Trump may be a psychotic weirdo but he's hurt the cause of neoliberal capitalism and hasn't started any endless wars for oil.

[Grand Proudhonia]

Catalonia and Ukraine? You mean the two places that were directly dicked over by the Soviets, who abandoned unity and solidarity with their comrades in favor of power?

Well that's from the Anarchist perspective, if you ask the Marxists then it was Makhno's forces who attacked Red Army units after they defeated the whites. And with Catalonia, some sources have said that it was the CNT-FAI who attacked other republican forces first, but I guess we'll never know the full truth about it.

The Red Army made multiple intrusions against Makhno and his forces including several attempts on Mahknos life before the defeat of the whites... not only that but the soviets had declared The Mahknovists Outlaws and counterrevolutionaries... further Trotsky issued the arrests of members of The Nabat...

"When General Wrangel's White Army forces were decisively defeated in November 1920, the Communists immediately turned on Makhno and the anarchists once again. After refusing a direct order by the Bolshevik government to disband his anarchist army, Makhno intercepted three messages from Lenin to Christian Rakovsky, the head of the Bolshevik Ukrainian Soviet based in Kharkiv. Lenin's orders were to arrest all members of Makhno's organization and to try them as common criminals. On November 26, 1920, less than two weeks after assisting Red Army forces to defeat Wrangel, Makhno's headquarters staff and many of his subordinate commanders were arrested at a Red Army planning conference to which they had been invited by Moscow, and executed. Makhno escaped, but was soon forced into retreat as the full weight of the Red Army and the Cheka's Special Punitive Brigades was brought to bear against not only the Makhnovists, but all anarchists, even their admirers and sympathizers."

[Cekoviu]

Leftists: who is better, Donald Trump or George W. Bush?

Trump may be a psychotic weirdo but he's hurt the cause of neoliberal capitalism and hasn't started any endless wars for oil.

Bush

[Grand Proudhonia]

As a side note, the collapse of an anarchist society due to invasions by centralized forces is not and should not be considered a failure of the Anarchist philosophy... The Free Territory is a legitimate example of a working anarchist society despite the fact that they were defeated by the red army

The fact of the matter is that Ukraine would have been defeated by The Red Army whether it was anarchist or centralized

[Bear Stearns]

Leftists: who is better, Donald Trump or George W. Bush?

Trump may be a psychotic weirdo but he's hurt the cause of neoliberal capitalism and hasn't started any endless wars for oil.

Bush

why

[Soviet Tankistan]

My views on primitive cultures consist of merciful conversion and ethnic equality, but I will not allow them to keep their reactionary identity.

Gross.

right wing colonialist

Hmm, I wonder why?

racist?

Most likely, yes.

I seek to extinguish racial strife and old social issues that have not been resolved.

By literally "mercifully converting" (whatever the fuck that means) """"primitive"""" cultures.

Provide an example where I am racist. If i have not spoken enough to determine, ask me a question that will better determine whether I am racist. Ad hominem attacks might as well have substance and I would prefer that you have a chance to prove your assertions.

Is it wrong to set up all for equal success? It is fundamentally unfair that x group gets different results as a collective from group y for being behind technologically and socially. Therefore, both groups should be assimilated into a society more advanced than that of group x while being inclusive to people not from group y.

*snip*

I do not believe we will come to an agreement here.

And that is not required.

I do not know how to explain this, but I am against modern liberal progressivism. Society is falling apart from capitalist entropy and both American progressivism and conservatism seem to be symptoms of this. I oppose drugs, paganism, most body modification, free love, bourgeois trends, identity politics, lewdness, and other awful problems that new progressives have a tolerant stance on while supporting equal rights to the point of heavy enforcement. I favor cultural preservation to an extent, valuing classic art. This is somewhat correlated to my want of calculated authority. My views on primitive cultures consist of merciful conversion and ethnic equality, but I will not allow them to keep their reactionary identity. Modesty and partially frugal living are some core values that Americans have forgotten. And nobody is special. The only group that is an enemy is the oppressor.

I have been criticized for these views, called a neo-nazi troll and right wing colonialist for approving of benevolent order and regard for all as fundamentally equal. I consider myself as not conceding to rightist and liberal decay in many ways, although the "pan-leftist" community on GP believes that I am controversial and appalling by espousing values that seek to create social unity and remove hedonistic and reactionary ideals that oppose my praxis.

Am I a rightist and anti-revolutionary? A capitalist and racist? For the record, I stand by suppression of hate and regulation of economic activities enacted with the power of the state installed by the people's strength. I seek to extinguish racial strife and old social issues that have not been resolved. Reactionary or not, which am I?

While it is possible to be a social conservative Socialist, it isn't productive or practical, Socialism requires the the solidarity and emancipation of all people's and groups. By alienating people because of they do not fit into your form of the ideal citizen wont attract people your cause.

There is no ideal citizen. But people are covertly molded by every system.

I am not conservative, but appeal to order and likeness.

[Cekoviu]

Bush

why

Not an economic isolationist, not as much of an idiot or racist, supported ending the fish-human war, etc.

[Torrocca]

As a side note, the collapse of an anarchist society due to invasions by centralized forces is not and should not be considered a failure of the Anarchist philosophy... The Free Territory is a legitimate example of a working anarchist society despite the fact that they were defeated by the red army

The fact of the matter is that Ukraine would have been defeated by The Red Army whether it was anarchist or centralized

Mocking the Free Territory for getting beaten by the USSR is kinda like mocking a 10-year-old for getting turned to mush by Hafthor Bjornnson punching them in the face, tbqh. It doesn't matter if the kid hit the gym five hours, seven days a week, or if they just did kid things, they were still gonna get turned to mush.

[Bear Stearns]

why

Not an economic isolationist, not as much of an idiot or racist, supported ending the fish-human war, etc.

Can I have a serious answer pls?

Bush was a retard and warmongering bloodthirsty whore.

[Grand Proudhonia]

Another example of the soviets being shitty, Nestor Makhno was able to escape to Paris with his wife and daughter where he wrote anarchist literature and other various odd jobs such as carpentry until he died in 1934. His wife and daughter would later be sent to German labor camps following the occupation of Paris. The red army would later find out about this and would eventually "liberate" the camp that they were being kept at however the Soviets wanted revenge at this point. Seeing as Mahkno was dead, they put his wife and daughter on trial and sentenced them to forced labor in Soviet camps. All we really no from that point is that Mahknos daughter ended up in Kazakhstan... no one is certain if he has any descendants remaining today

[Cekoviu]

Not an economic isolationist, not as much of an idiot or racist, supported ending the fish-human war, etc.

Can I have a serious answer pls?

Bush was a retard and warmongering bloodthirsty whore.

Only one of those was a joke.
Make no mistake, I do not at all like Bush (which is different from having a weird obsession with the Bush years, believe it or not), but Trump is twice as bad on all of those counts.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Can I have a serious answer pls?

Bush was a retard and warmongering bloodthirsty whore.

Only one of those was a joke.
Make no mistake, I do not at all like Bush (which is different from having a weird obsession with the Bush years, believe it or not), but Trump is twice as bad on all of those counts.

Trump hasn't started a war that killed hundreds of thousands of people.