LWDT 8: Hitting the Marx

[Crysuko]

You know, I'd probably be more sympathetic towards argie right-wing libertarians if they weren't so consistently arrogant and patronizing. Their hearts are in the right place (fight the system, liberty, etc.), but they have a boomer's half-baked understanding of national and world history and think that makes them the experts.

Still, I vastly prefer them and their presidential candidate to whatever the heck the authoritarian christian conservatives of Gómez Centurión are.

Eh, what could I say, I love Capitalism and free markets.

just don't be a cultist about it. the kind of slavering libertarian who answers every societal and economic woe with MUH FREE MARKET WILL FIX IT

[Benuty]

You guys are clearly all wrong. The glorious leader Sternburg Khan will lead humanity to greatness through the carbon reduction of millions of souls off the planet.

[South Reinkalistan]

You guys are clearly all wrong. The glorious leader Sternburg Khan will lead humanity to greatness through the carbon reduction of millions of souls off the planet.

No, no, no. You have it all wrong. I'm not sure how yet, but I'll definitely think of something.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Cooperatives must still make a profit and accumulate capital. So it places workers in the impossible position of having competing interests as workers versus interests as owners. They don't abolish exploitation, they merely have self-managed exploitation. And that will entail all the evils of capitalism: the business cycle, crisis, the ratcheting upwards of exploitation, lay offs and business failures.

It is the word that was given to us almost two centuries ago, when "dictator" had the same connotation as "director". And like the Roman concept of dictatura, the dictatorship of the proletariat is a constitutional emergency government, not a permanent state of affairs. It is the working class taking and wielding power as a class, not substituted through some smaller clique, and its function ceases when the class war ceases.

Every economic system that has any interest in sustaining itself will desire profit; desire to get more out than what it puts in. Anything different is objective failure.

Yes, an emergency government which will, even in the best case scenarios, be expected to be necessary for the better part of a century. When emergency powers are designed to last that long, it's borderline impossible for the "emergency" to be "over." I think you'll find the "class war" will never cease, and if it did cease, the ruling party would deny it ceased.

Market socialism isn't socialism, it's a form of managed capitalism.

Money doesn't arise naturally, it's a creature of the state. And it cannot exist without private property, which is also abolished.

Market Socialists disagree.

The existence of crypto and virtual economies disproves that.

sure, but it to hardly merits orienting the entirety of an economic structure to account for such minor things. If a token develops to trade in such trinkets, whatever, no harm done, it ain't in the big picture.

Okay. As long as those "tokens" aren't banned, my fears are somewhat quelled.

I'm quite boring by comparison

Teach us normies your big-brained ways.

Not moderate enough.Like I can talk though.

Yes, you are quite boring.
Why such high punitive justice rates?


I’m still proud of my 0% capitalism.

I'm more proud of my 0% punitive justice. And less proud of my 0% revolution, I'm starting to think that it might be a tad naive.

You cannot escape the lobster queen.

I don't hate contra, but I hate all her memes. I mean, "lobster queen?" Really?

[Philjia]

If there's no money in Socialism, what of market Socialism, and how do you prevent money from arising naturally in a Socialist society?

Market socialism isn't socialism, it's a form of managed capitalism.

Money doesn't arise naturally, it's a creature of the state. And it cannot exist without private property, which is also abolished.

Personal property is different to private property, and as society's capacity to produce items that could be designated as personal property is not unlimited, an individual's ability to acquire them must also be limited, without the existence of state enforced quotas.

[Kowani]

I'm more proud of my 0% punitive justice. And less proud of my 0% revolution, I'm starting to think that it might be a tad naive.

0% punitive justice is admirable, although there are some people who can not be reformed.

Looks at world history. Yes. Yes it is.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

I'm more proud of my 0% punitive justice. And less proud of my 0% revolution, I'm starting to think that it might be a tad naive.

0% punitive justice is admirable, although there are some people who can not be reformed.

Looks at world history. Yes. Yes it is.

Maybe, but I think I was in an extreme mood when I took that test, because it made me pretty extreme. I don't think I'm that extreme in some of those areas.

Point taken, but history also shows that most revolutions end badly.

[Kowani]

0% punitive justice is admirable, although there are some people who can not be reformed.

Looks at world history. Yes. Yes it is.

Maybe, but I think I was in an extreme mood when I took that test, because it made me pretty extreme. I don't think I'm that extreme in some of those areas.

No, almost certainly not. Extremism seems to be one of those things you don’t like.

Point taken, but history also shows that most revolutions end badly.

Massive power imbalance

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

No, almost certainly not. Extremism seems to be one of those things you don’t like.

It depends on what you mean by extremism. Strong support or rejection of something isn't necessarily bad. It's when you treat your opposition like dirt, or when you won't compromise on anything no matter how insignificant when extremism becomes bad.

Point taken, but history also shows that most revolutions end badly.

Massive power imbalance

I don't understand the relevance of that phrase in response to what I just said.

[Kowani]

No, almost certainly not. Extremism seems to be one of those things you don’t like.

It depends on what you mean by extremism. Strong support or rejection of something isn't necessarily bad. It's when you treat your opposition like dirt, or when you won't compromise on anything no matter how insignificant when extremism becomes bad.

Agree on the second point, not necessarily on the first. It really does depend on what position they support. In Spain, we have our own far-right party, Vox. If they had been in power, I wouldn’t be here. So, I’m not exactly going to treat them with civility.

Massive power imbalance

I don't understand the relevance of that phrase in response to what I just said.

Well, the reason most revolutions fail isn’t because revolution is inherently a bad idea-it’s because of the massive power imbalance between the State and the revolutionaries.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

It depends on what you mean by extremism. Strong support or rejection of something isn't necessarily bad. It's when you treat your opposition like dirt, or when you won't compromise on anything no matter how insignificant when extremism becomes bad.

Agree on the second point, not necessarily on the first. It really does depend on what position they support. In Spain, we have our own far-right party, Vox. If they had been in power, I wouldn’t be here. So, I’m not exactly going to treat them with civility.

I don't just mean a lack of civility, I mean full on political violence and the like. Also, aren't you a U.S. citizen?

I don't understand the relevance of that phrase in response to what I just said.

Well, the reason most revolutions fail isn’t because revolution is inherently a bad idea-it’s because of the massive power imbalance between the State and the revolutionaries.

It's not just that they fail, it's that even when they succeed they often usher in an era worse than what preceded the revolution.

[Philjia]

I don't understand the relevance of that phrase in response to what I just said.

Well, the reason most revolutions fail isn’t because revolution is inherently a bad idea-it’s because of the massive power imbalance between the State and the revolutionaries.

And then if the coup d'état succeeds there's the resultant massive power imbalance between the leaders of the revolution and the proles.

[Torrocca]

So, uh, I went and retook the politiscales test since everyone else was, too, and the results are a bit interesting to say the least.

I'm thoroughly spooked by the 5% Nationalism and 5% Laissez-Faire bits, and even more spooked by the relatively low ecology score.

EDIT: Also went ahead and redid 8values and the full 9axes quiz (some of those fucking questions are way too open to interpretation on that one), as well as the dichotomy test on philosophy. I'm actually fairly intrigued by these results, in all honesty.

[Kowani]

Agree on the second point, not necessarily on the first. It really does depend on what position they support. In Spain, we have our own far-right party, Vox. If they had been in power, I wouldn’t be here. So, I’m not exactly going to treat them with civility.

I don't just mean a lack of civility, I mean full on political violence and the like. Also, aren't you a U.S. citizen?

Like my grandfather was to Spain, I am an immigrant to the US. But if VOX had their way, he would never have come to Spain in the first place.
There’s a motto I haven’t used in a while “Violence is a legitimate political tool.”

Well, the reason most revolutions fail isn’t because revolution is inherently a bad idea-it’s because of the massive power imbalance between the State and the revolutionaries.

It's not just that they fail, it's that even when they succeed they often usher in an era worse than what preceded the revolution.

And now-cite that. Because while I’m sure some of them have (although counting a CIA powered coup as a revolution is…sketchy) I am not sure if often is the right qualifier.

Well, the reason most revolutions fail isn’t because revolution is inherently a bad idea-it’s because of the massive power imbalance between the State and the revolutionaries.

And then if the coup d'état succeeds there's the resultant massive power imbalance between the leaders of the revolution and the proles.

Well, yes.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Like my grandfather was to Spain, I am an immigrant to the US. But if VOX had their way, he would never have come to Spain in the first place.
There’s a motto I haven’t used in a while “Violence is a legitimate political tool.”

And how is this "tool" to be used?

And now-cite that. Because while I’m sure some of them have (although counting a CIA powered coup as a revolution is…sketchy) I am not sure if often is the right qualifier.

The Russian revolution, the French revolution, the Chinese Civil War, the Haitian revolution. Pretty much every revolution except maybe the American revolution.

[Philjia]

Like my grandfather was to Spain, I am an immigrant to the US. But if VOX had their way, he would never have come to Spain in the first place.
There’s a motto I haven’t used in a while “Violence is a legitimate political tool.”

And how is this "tool" to be used?

And now-cite that. Because while I’m sure some of them have (although counting a CIA powered coup as a revolution is…sketchy) I am not sure if often is the right qualifier.

The Russian revolution, the French revolution, the Chinese Civil War, the Haitian revolution. Pretty much every revolution except maybe the American revolution.

Haiti was more the French's fault for making them pay reparations.

[North German Realm]

And how is this "tool" to be used?

The Russian revolution, the French revolution, the Chinese Civil War, the Haitian revolution. Pretty much every revolution except maybe the American revolution.

Haiti was more the French's fault for making them pay reparations.

I'm sure the number of coups, counter coups, and massacres held by the Haitians was in no way even remotely responsible for anything.

[Kowani]

Like my grandfather was to Spain, I am an immigrant to the US. But if VOX had their way, he would never have come to Spain in the first place.
There’s a motto I haven’t used in a while “Violence is a legitimate political tool.”

And how is this "tool" to be used?

Sparingly, as a last resort.
Fair.
Nope.
Fair, if a bit more nuanced, in that it is better to live in modern China (at least until Xi implements his megalomania into everyone’s life) than it would be to be stuck in pre-war ROC.
Nope.

…You’re aware there have been a lot more revolutions in world history.

[Cekoviu]

So, uh, I went and retook the politiscales test since everyone else was, too, and the results are a bit interesting to say the least.

I'm thoroughly spooked by the 5% Nationalism and 5% Laissez-Faire bits, and even more spooked by the relatively low ecology score.

I think their ecology scoring method and/or questions might just be weird. I got 40%-29% in favor of ecology on that part, and anybody who knows me would be incredibly surprised by that.
Other results, for the curious. There's a lot of white space because I wasn't sure how to answer weirdly worded questions or had an answer that was very mixed.
I'm even less laissez-faire than Torra, btw.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

So, uh, I went and retook the politiscales test since everyone else was, too, and the results are a bit interesting to say the least.

I'm thoroughly spooked by the 5% Nationalism and 5% Laissez-Faire bits, and even more spooked by the relatively low ecology score.

I think their ecology scoring method and/or questions might just be weird. I got 40%-29% in favor of ecology on that part, and anybody who knows me would be incredibly surprised by that.
Other results, for the curious. There's a lot of white space because I wasn't sure how to answer weirdly worded questions or had an answer that was very mixed.
I'm even less laissez-faire than Torra, btw.

Finally! A sister in arms against all this revolutionary fervor!

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

And how is this "tool" to be used?

…You’re aware there have been a lot more revolutions in world history.

You kind of wrecked the formatting on this tbh. I can't make heads or tails of it.

[Kowani]

So, uh, I went and retook the politiscales test since everyone else was, too, and the results are a bit interesting to say the least.

I'm thoroughly spooked by the 5% Nationalism and 5% Laissez-Faire bits, and even more spooked by the relatively low ecology score.

I think their ecology scoring method and/or questions might just be weird. I got 40%-29% in favor of ecology on that part, and anybody who knows me would be incredibly surprised by that.
Other results, for the curious. There's a lot of white space because I wasn't sure how to answer weirdly worded questions or had an answer that was very mixed.
I'm even less laissez-faire than Torra, btw.

Blame the bad wording on crowdsourcing the translation. I’ve done it with other projects. It’s a…mixed bag.

…You’re aware there have been a lot more revolutions in world history.

You kind of wrecked the formatting on this tbh. I can't make heads or tails of it.

…I need to get better at formatting.

[Torrocca]

So, uh, I went and retook the politiscales test since everyone else was, too, and the results are a bit interesting to say the least.

I'm thoroughly spooked by the 5% Nationalism and 5% Laissez-Faire bits, and even more spooked by the relatively low ecology score.

I think their ecology scoring method and/or questions might just be weird. I got 40%-29% in favor of ecology on that part, and anybody who knows me would be incredibly surprised by that.
Other results, for the curious. There's a lot of white space because I wasn't sure how to answer weirdly worded questions or had an answer that was very mixed.
I'm even less laissez-faire than Torra, btw.

Yeah, that's why I also went ahead and redid the 8values test and the full 9axes quiz AND the dichotomy test on philosophy, to make the general picture somewhat clearer.

[Cekoviu]

I think their ecology scoring method and/or questions might just be weird. I got 40%-29% in favor of ecology on that part, and anybody who knows me would be incredibly surprised by that.
Other results, for the curious. There's a lot of white space because I wasn't sure how to answer weirdly worded questions or had an answer that was very mixed.
I'm even less laissez-faire than Torra, btw.

Yeah, that's why I also went ahead and redid the 8values test and the full 9axes quiz AND the dichotomy test on philosophy, to make the general picture somewhat clearer.

"Extreme globalist" and "fanatic multiculturalist" makes it sound like a Nazi is describing your beliefs there.

[Torrocca]

Yeah, that's why I also went ahead and redid the 8values test and the full 9axes quiz AND the dichotomy test on philosophy, to make the general picture somewhat clearer.

"Extreme globalist" and "fanatic multiculturalist" makes it sound like a Nazi is describing your beliefs there.

I love that little bit to be honest, it's great