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LWDT 8: Hitting the Marx

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Under which leaders (if any) was the Soviet Union socialist?

Lenin (1918-1924)
411
34%
Stalin (1924-1953)
223
19%
Khrushchev (1953-1964)
149
12%
Brezhnev (1964-1982)
125
10%
Gorbachev (1985-1991)
126
10%
Never
167
14%
 
Total votes : 1201

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Albrenia
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Albrenia » Sat Dec 21, 2019 9:41 pm

Social media giving everyone a public voice is mostly responsible for the constant misuse of terms like 'fascism', 'marxist' and the like, imho.

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The Liberated Territories
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Capitalizt

Postby The Liberated Territories » Sat Dec 21, 2019 9:50 pm

Hanafuridake wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:Trump's not a fascist, he has no ideology to speak of, he has a few dispositions, but dispositions don't make a worldview. He is supremely prone to being influenced.


Basically Trump is just a rich boomer who thinks the rest of the world needs to respect America's authoritah. He doesn't have any concrete ideas, which leaves him open to influence from evangelicals, esoteric nationalists, etc. Pence and Bannon are two examples of this.


And to my relief Rand Paul.

But unfortunately such a position is a minority one.
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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:04 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:Trump's not a fascist, he has no ideology to speak of, he has a few dispositions, but dispositions don't make a worldview. He is supremely prone to being influenced.

This is generally how I see it, I think he has at least one person in his administration who could be labeled a fascist, but calling Trump a fascist implies he has a clue what fascism even is.
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The Liberated Territories
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Capitalizt

Postby The Liberated Territories » Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:07 pm

If Trump is a fascist then he is the worst fascist ever. Can't even unite the nation under one party like Hitler. SMH
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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:07 pm

Question. What the threads general thought on a free movement treaty between select nations of the Americas similar to what the EU has?
I generally think that freedom of movement would be a fantastic economic boom but the economic situation in American countries is very different from most European countries so it would have to be very careful.
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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:12 pm

I've also generally thought that free trade of corporations without free movement of citizens is inherently corrupt.
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Byzconia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Byzconia » Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:40 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Byzconia wrote:You...do understand that hyperbole is a thing, right? You didn't think those were meant to be actual estimates, did you?


[Citation needed]

A citation for your viewing pleasure.

Ah, yes, just how I like my sources: completely devoid of any actual data or academic citations and written by someone without a formal education in the subject they're writing about.
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Page
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Postby Page » Sun Dec 22, 2019 2:14 am

Genivaria wrote:Question. What the threads general thought on a free movement treaty between select nations of the Americas similar to what the EU has?
I generally think that freedom of movement would be a fantastic economic boom but the economic situation in American countries is very different from most European countries so it would have to be very careful.


I support open borders worldwide but unless capitalism is dismantled and workers of the world unionize, such a policy will only facilitate further economic exploitation.
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Cekoviu
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Postby Cekoviu » Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:33 am

Genivaria wrote:Question. What the threads general thought on a free movement treaty between select nations of the Americas similar to what the EU has?
I generally think that freedom of movement would be a fantastic economic boom but the economic situation in American countries is very different from most European countries so it would have to be very careful.

It might be difficult due to the larger size and cultural factors. It might also cause negative environmental consequences in South and Central America.
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United Muscovite Nations
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:34 am

Page wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Question. What the threads general thought on a free movement treaty between select nations of the Americas similar to what the EU has?
I generally think that freedom of movement would be a fantastic economic boom but the economic situation in American countries is very different from most European countries so it would have to be very careful.


I support open borders worldwide but unless capitalism is dismantled and workers of the world unionize, such a policy will only facilitate further economic exploitation.

^
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Chernoslavia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Chernoslavia » Sun Dec 22, 2019 2:46 pm

Byzconia wrote:
Chernoslavia wrote:I mean his source has homophobia lumped in with sexism. He acts like this articles definition of fascism is absolute.

The two often go hand-in-hand, along with other forms of bigotry like racism (if one is willing to accept that a certain group of people is superior/preferable to others by birth, it stands to reason they'll be accepting of the idea in regards to other groups as well). And the problem with defining Fascism as an ideology is that it explicitly has no set beliefs. Mussolini himself advocated for political opportunism in The Doctrine of Fascism and basically said that Fascists should lie about what they believe until they're actually in office. There's also a night-and-day stark difference between the contents of the Fascist Manifesto and the practice of Italian Fascism (so much so that they're almost complete opposites in most regards). I personally support Umberto Eco's definition laid out in Ur-Fascism, since he tries to base it on common traits of European fascist movements rather than a set "ideal" of what constitutes "fascism." That said, the fact that there are so many different definitions on that one page should give you some idea of the trouble political scientists and historians face of trying to categorize fascism.

And citation on this

Huh, I couldn't find one. I must've been wrong, I guess it was probably a hold-over from my Marxist days that I never had cause to reevaluate until now. As you were.

and how does it mean that I support fascism.

For the record, I never said you were a fascist/supported fascism. I don't know enough about you to make such a claim.


There is no accepted criteria for what exactly is Fascism, but there are key elements that all Fascist regimes had such as being one party dictatorships, have forcibly suppressed political opponents, discriminated and oppressed people based on their race or nationality, were ultranationalistic and had a strong regimentation of society. Trump isn't and has not done any of these as such he isn't Fascist and to say that he is one only cheapens the word and does absolutely nothing to combat Fascism. If people like antifa groups were half the anti fascists they claim to be, they'd seize calling anyone they don't like as Fascist.
Last edited by Chernoslavia on Sun Dec 22, 2019 2:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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Chernoslavia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Chernoslavia » Sun Dec 22, 2019 2:51 pm

Happpy wrote:
Chernoslavia wrote:
Which is why Trump isn't fascist, just another authoritarian hack.

Well if it walls like a duck, and talks like a duck, it's clearly an octopus.

At least according to your logic.


Nope, I rather view factual evidence than take the word of radicals. Try again.
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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West Leas Oros 2
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Ex-Nation

Postby West Leas Oros 2 » Sun Dec 22, 2019 2:58 pm

Albrenia wrote:Social media giving everyone a public voice is mostly responsible for the constant misuse of terms like 'fascism', 'marxist' and the like, imho.

I used to be part of the political side of Instagram, a few years back. Worst decision I ever made. The place was swarming with all sorts of unironically terrible people. Met this one guy who was super awesome though. But seriously, all manner of tankies, fascists, capitalists, identitarians, even some fairly unhinged liberals if you got unlucky. The point of it all? Social media has created a place for all the worst sludge of the political world to congregate.
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West Leas Oros 2
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Postby West Leas Oros 2 » Sun Dec 22, 2019 3:02 pm

Albrenia wrote:Trump's outlook does seem to have a lot of the hallmarks of fascism, but I don't think he is a fascist.

He’s mostly just another corrupt American politician, (surprise, surprise!) but he’s far more severe and far more blatant about it. Fascist? Nah. Someone who no decent human being should have respect for? Sure. But not fascist.
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How many South Americans need to be killed by the CIA before you realize socialism is bad?
I like to think I've come a long way since the days of the First WLO.
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Cappuccina
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Ex-Nation

Postby Cappuccina » Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:57 pm

Genivaria wrote:Question. What the threads general thought on a free movement treaty between select nations of the Americas similar to what the EU has?
I generally think that freedom of movement would be a fantastic economic boom but the economic situation in American countries is very different from most European countries so it would have to be very careful.


Nah, I'm not too keen on freedom of movement, but if it were to happen , I'd only be interested in such a treaty with our hat.
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Pasong Tirad
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Pasong Tirad » Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:17 pm

Page wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Question. What the threads general thought on a free movement treaty between select nations of the Americas similar to what the EU has?
I generally think that freedom of movement would be a fantastic economic boom but the economic situation in American countries is very different from most European countries so it would have to be very careful.


I support open borders worldwide but unless capitalism is dismantled and workers of the world unionize, such a policy will only facilitate further economic exploitation.

^ A border is implicitly violent because violence is required to maintain it - violence against both people and nature. All socialists should work towards a future without borders.

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Happpy
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Founded: Dec 17, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Happpy » Mon Dec 23, 2019 6:45 am

Beire wrote:Trump is not ideologically a fascist. The misuse of this word is problematic as it undermines the severity of actual fascism and fascism's noisome legacy.

Then you have no idea what fascism is.

Liberalism, be it social democracy, neoliberalism or whatever, has always relied upon or enjoyed the support of fascist movements. Trump is no exception to this.

Are you seriously implying that Trump is liberal???? What planet do you live on?

f there is a threat to the wealth and power of the bourgeoisie, the liberals will ultimately side with the fascists as Trump does (or at least they will make perfunctory claims about fascist extremism), due to the fact that fascism is a means to preserve capitalism.

Oh my fucking god... you CANNOT be serious. Trump is NOT a liberal, not by a longshot. I mean... do you even know what liberalism IS? It is an ideology based on liberty, consent of the governed, and EQUALITY before the law. If you have bothered to actually READ liberal philosophers, maybe you'd understand that Trump is FAR from being liberal.

Typical of commies though. Everything they hate is 'liberal' to them.

A lot of the bad things Trump and his government have done existed or were even worse pre-Trump.

The main difference is that, with the rise of populism and Trumpian rhetoric, fascist movements have been emboldened. They were always there, but they are just more prominent now.

Both of these points are fair enough, but that doesn't make him a liberal though

Chernoslavia wrote:
Happpy wrote:Well if it walls like a duck, and talks like a duck, it's clearly an octopus.

At least according to your logic.


Nope, I rather view factual evidence than take the word of radicals. Try again.

LMAO I ain't a radical buddy. Try again.

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Page wrote:
I support open borders worldwide but unless capitalism is dismantled and workers of the world unionize, such a policy will only facilitate further economic exploitation.

^

"unless capitalism is dismantled" lmao like they were better off starving to death under communism

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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:01 am

Happpy wrote:
Beire wrote:Trump is not ideologically a fascist. The misuse of this word is problematic as it undermines the severity of actual fascism and fascism's noisome legacy.

Then you have no idea what fascism is.


Quite the contrary people who just throw the word around to describe anything and anyone they don't like have no idea what it is. Trump is in no way a fascist, and if he really is then fascism isn't exactly a spooky specter that people need to be worried about lol.
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Happpy
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Happpy » Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:01 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Happpy wrote:Then you have no idea what fascism is.


Quite the contrary people who just throw the word around to describe anything and anyone they don't like have no idea what it is. Trump is in no way a fascist, and if he really is then fascism isn't exactly a spooky specter that people need to be worried about lol.

Given that you are a 'third positionist' I don't think you would be neutral in regards to discussing anything related to fascism. Much like how commies are always biased towards their own totalitarian regimes, fashies will always defend 'daddy hitler and 'papa pinochet'

Except your a crypto, so you always defend fascism while denying that you're a fashie. Lol

"Trumpf isn't a fascist"
"btw fascism is nothing to be worried about"


lmao
Last edited by Happpy on Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Philjia
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Philjia » Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:10 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Happpy wrote:Then you have no idea what fascism is.


Quite the contrary people who just throw the word around to describe anything and anyone they don't like have no idea what it is. Trump is in no way a fascist, and if he really is then fascism isn't exactly a spooky specter that people need to be worried about lol.

Tell that to his victims.
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Washington Resistance Army
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Father Knows Best State

Postby Washington Resistance Army » Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:13 am

Happpy wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Quite the contrary people who just throw the word around to describe anything and anyone they don't like have no idea what it is. Trump is in no way a fascist, and if he really is then fascism isn't exactly a spooky specter that people need to be worried about lol.

Given that you are a 'third positionist' I don't think you would be neutral in regards to discussing anything related to fascism. Much like how commies are always biased towards their own totalitarian regimes, fashies will always defend 'daddy hitler and 'papa pinochet'

Except your a crypto, so you always defend fascism while denying that you're a fashie. Lol

"Trumpf isn't a fascist"
"btw fascism is nothing to be worried about"


lmao


I very openly call fascism a failed ideology over in RWDT, so yeah.

Philjia wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Quite the contrary people who just throw the word around to describe anything and anyone they don't like have no idea what it is. Trump is in no way a fascist, and if he really is then fascism isn't exactly a spooky specter that people need to be worried about lol.

Tell that to his victims.


Every president has victims. Unless they're all suddenly le ebic fash this means nothing.
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United Muscovite Nations
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Ex-Nation

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:19 am

Calling Trump a fascist implies that he is loyal to principles.
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Proctopeo
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Anarchy

Postby Proctopeo » Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:20 am

United Muscovite Nations wrote:Calling Trump a fascist implies that he is loyal to principles.

He's closer to a blind pragmatist than anything else.
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Northern Davincia
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:21 am

Pasong Tirad wrote:
Page wrote:
I support open borders worldwide but unless capitalism is dismantled and workers of the world unionize, such a policy will only facilitate further economic exploitation.

^ A border is implicitly violent because violence is required to maintain it - violence against both people and nature. All socialists should work towards a future without borders.

It is wholly justified violence.
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North German Realm
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Founded: Jan 27, 2019
Left-Leaning College State

Postby North German Realm » Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:22 am

Proctopeo wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:Calling Trump a fascist implies that he is loyal to principles.

He's closer to a blind pragmatist than anything else.

I wouldn't call him a pragmatist either tbh.
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