NationStates

Myrensis wrote:

Israeli Empiratic Commonwealth wrote:Sorry, is anyone else noticing a left wing hypocrisy here?
When it suits them, Jews are great and the holocaust was so bad and Nazis are all horrible etc etc
When it doesnt, just because Jews had the holocaust happen to them doesnt make this right etc etc

What if I told you it's entirely possible for the Holocaust to be terrible, the Nazi's to be horrible, and the nation state of Israel to behave badly, all at the same time?

Like, what kind of logic is this? "If you think genociding Jewish people is wrong, that means you can never criticize a Jewish person or group for any reason, or it's hypocrisy!"

Exactly. The left didnt believe that 2 weeks ago.

Israeli Empiratic Commonwealth wrote:

Myrensis wrote:
What if I told you it's entirely possible for the Holocaust to be terrible, the Nazi's to be horrible, and the nation state of Israel to behave badly, all at the same time?

Like, what kind of logic is this? "If you think genociding Jewish people is wrong, that means you can never criticize a Jewish person or group for any reason, or it's hypocrisy!"

Exactly. The left didnt believe that 2 weeks ago.

Who is "the left" and can you cite a quote?

North German Realm wrote:Except that's not what happened. You compared the legible fear that Sephardic Jews in general have of non-Jews (which has a historical basis that is literally older than Rome as a polity) (and by proxy, Fahran in particular) to the Klansmen's "fear" of blacks. Neither Fahran (nor, I think, anyone else) brought up the so-called oppression Palestinians face. You just brought it up as an after-thought afterwards in a petty attempt for your justification of some of the hottest antisemitic takes I've heard on NS this last few weeks.

Yeah... The dog whistles are getting pretty bad around here honestly. I sort of expect it in the RWDT since we have to chase out the local Anti-Semites every couple of months, but it's been a growing problem among progressives of late as well. I would think that people used to acknowledging the context behind why the DEA's policies and stop-and-frisk constitute de facto forms of racial discrimination would be able to understand why you probably shouldn't accuse Jewish people of hypnotizing the world and having dual loyalty in the process of criticizing Israel in an otherwise legitimate way.

Again, literally no one is saying you can't criticize Israel. I have criticized Israel multiple times on NSG. I have criticized America's tendency to prioritize Israel's interests when that is counter-intuitive to America's interests. I have not, however, talked about Zionists being a fifth column, something that we can easily apply to a wide array of other groups in a way that will make your knee jerk right out of its socket, or mentioned hypnotism. Because racism is bad.

Otira wrote:

Scomagia wrote:Are you seriously asking that after what Vass implied about their "bias"?

Are you seriously asking me that?

Let's not spam.

I'm trying to be as civil as I can be, but I'm a bit tired of being kicked in the shin and then misrepresented. I've literally laid out why what Omar said was Antisemitism. Nobody has responded to the actual language. It doesn't become okay to use Antisemitic language just because you're talking about Israel and not all Jewish people. That's the issue. The language is inexorably tied to Antisemitism, and it literally mirrors what Neo-Nazis say.

I never once implied that we can't criticize Israel or lobbying or anything else. I just told you not to be Antisemitic or tolerant of Antisemitism in doing so. And, just because you're Jewish, doesn't mean you can't further Antisemitism. If you let people in your political circle normalize language like that, you're contributing to a growing issue.

Fahran wrote:

Otira wrote:Are you seriously asking me that?

Let's not spam.

I assumed they were and joined in with the same spirit. Plus I wouldn't accusing anyone of spamming for repeat a phrase once when you've repeated some buzzword phrases a half dozen times in this thread alone.

I'm trying to be as civil as I can be, but I'm a bit tired of being kicked in the shin and then misrepresented. I've literally laid out why what Omar said was Antisemitism. Nobody has responded to the actual language. It doesn't become okay to use Antisemitic language just because you're talking about Israel and not all Jewish people. That's the issue. The language is inexorably tied to Antisemitism, and it literally mirrors what Neo-Nazis say.

I responded and you haven't responded to my post yet.

Cappuccina wrote:Not to be facetious, but Israel in particular makes themselves an easy target for those arguments, whether they're true or not is besides the point.

I mean... I could make the same argument about a good many groups. It'd still be a bad and probably bigoted argument, especially if phrased in the way people here are presently defending.

Otira wrote:Has anybody said the former quote here unironically? I recall it as being one Omar said years ago and apologized for.
And who are you quoting for the latter quote?

Vass hasn't said any of this stuff in criticizing Israel. You're just dragging in nonsense to prop up your failing argument.

Vass has defended the remarks by Omar and claimed they weren't Antisemitic. That's literally the entire reason this debate is happening. My basic argument was as follows.

1. Omar has made multiple Antisemitic remarks.
2. Omar has supported BDS.
3. Omar has every appearance of being an Anti-Semite and Anti-Zionist.
4. Ergo Israel was well within its rights to ban her.

She disagreed with 1 and 3, and that disagreement had no real merit in the case of 1. 3 could at least be debated.

Fahran wrote:

Cappuccina wrote:Not to be facetious, but Israel in particular makes themselves an easy target for those arguments, whether they're true or not is besides the point.

I mean... I could make the same argument about a good many groups. It'd still be a bad and probably bigoted argument, especially if phrased in the way people here are presently defending.

Out of curiosity, if a member of the US government called themselves the "Protector of Russia" would you suspect their loyalties? Points if you can respond with a "yes" or "no".

Otira wrote:I assumed they were and joined in with the same spirit. Plus I wouldn't accusing anyone of spamming for repeat a phrase once when you've repeated some buzzword phrases a half dozen times in this thread alone.

My phrases were relevant to the argument at hand, namely the one about whether or not Omar's remarks constituted Antisemitism.

Otira wrote:I responded and you haven't responded to my post yet.

My apologies.

Otira wrote:Out of curiosity, if a member of the US government called themselves the "Protector of Russia" would you suspect their loyalties? Points if you can respond with a "yes" or "no".

Yes. Russia isn't a geopolitical ally at the moment. Israel is.

If you had mentioned South Korea or Poland, my answer would be no. But would you like to pursue the example I offered earlier? We can use Salafis if you like and then follow the logical conclusions of the argument.

Israeli Empiratic Commonwealth wrote:

Cappuccina wrote:It's called pandering guy, the right, the left, everyone does it when it benefits them.

Not me, neither do my closest friends. I have all my political beliefs in a book. I would say the same thing if France denied President Trump's entry. Israel is a completely independent country, I dont even know how this is up for debate.

.....

That literally has nothing to do with your earlier post, referring to how left does the switcheroo in regards to Jews. You and I aren't even debating anything.

I do not support either representatives. I was not even aware of their existence. Banning them has only proven another example of the Streisand effect.

Fahran wrote:

Otira wrote:Has anybody said the former quote here unironically? I recall it as being one Omar said years ago and apologized for.
And who are you quoting for the latter quote?

Vass hasn't said any of this stuff in criticizing Israel. You're just dragging in nonsense to prop up your failing argument.

Vass has defended the remarks by Omar and claimed they weren't Antisemitic. That's literally the entire reason this debate is happening. My basic argument was as follows.

1. Omar has made multiple Antisemitic remarks.
2. Omar has supported BDS.
3. Omar has every appearance of being an Anti-Semite and Anti-Zionist.
4. Ergo Israel was well within its rights to ban her.

She disagreed with 1 and 3, and that disagreement had no real merit in the case of 1. 3 could at least be debated.

You're being extremely disingenuous. You didn't even respond to some of Vass's original replies to you. I can go right back and look at the conversation, and so can you.

Takso wrote:I do not support either representatives. I was not even aware of their existence. Banning them has only proven another example of the Streisand effect.

To be quite honest if you weren't aware of the existence of Omar and Tlaib (possibly two of the most controversially public congressmen since this winter election) you were probably living under a rock. It's not even remotely close to the Streisand effect, given the nature of Omar and Tlaib's political platforms.

Fahran wrote:

Otira wrote:Out of curiosity, if a member of the US government called themselves the "Protector of Russia" would you suspect their loyalties? Points if you can respond with a "yes" or "no".

Yes.

Thank you, says everything that needs be said.

Cappuccina wrote:That literally has nothing to do with your earlier post, referring to how left does the switcheroo in regards to Jews. You and I aren't even debating anything.

I wouldn't say it's pandering exclusively, but that is one element of it. Muslims have become more central to left-wing coalition-building in recent years, largely due to right-wing Islamophobia, and Palestine is an issue where votes can be drawn up. The same thing happens with right-wing coalition-building and evangelicals.

Otira wrote:Thank you, says everything that needs be said.

Um... The entire response matters.

Why are we all pretending like suddenly cultural, historical, and geopolitical context don't matter?

Otira wrote:You're being extremely disingenuous. You didn't even respond to some of Vass's original replies to you. I can go right back and look at the conversation, and so can you.

No offense, but Vass began this discussion by being disingenuous and you have furthered that trend. I have seen multiple people spouting off about how I'm equating all criticism of Israel to Antisemitism - something that has never happened. I have seen multiple people responding with "she was talking about Israel", which isn't a rebuttal of what I said. The issue is that the language Omar used was Antisemitic and pretty nakedly so. Y'all are pretending like it wasn't because y'all like her and dislike Israel.

"Radical Islam is hypnotizing the world and radical Muslims aren't loyal citizens." How do you think this remark would impact the Muslim community in the United States? Would it potentially lead to Islamophobia despite Salafism not representing all of Islam?

Fahran wrote:

Otira wrote:You're being extremely disingenuous. You didn't even respond to some of Vass's original replies to you. I can go right back and look at the conversation, and so can you.

No offense

Y'all are pretending like it wasn't because y'all like her and dislike Israel.

No worries, I don't take offense from arguments made out of ignorance. Anyone who equates criticism of Israel to meaning I dislike it is someone with such a great strawman they must be filming a new Wizard of Oz.

North German Realm wrote:

Rojava Free State wrote:
yeah I did. Anyone who thinks people don't deserve to live because of their race is equal in my eyes. Being a Jew isn't an excuse for being a racist

Except that's not what happened. You compared the legible fear that Sephardic Jews in general have of non-Jews (which has a historical basis in the persecution of Jews that is literally older than Rome as a polity and that has consistently happened in history up to 2019 AD) (and by proxy, Fahran in particular) to the Klansmen's "fear" of blacks. Neither Fahran (nor, I think, anyone else) brought up the so-called oppression Palestinians face. You just brought it up as an after-thought afterwards in a petty attempt for your justification of some of the hottest antisemitic takes I've heard on NS this last few weeks.

Can you stop calling every one who doesn't agree with you antisemitic? It's rich that someone who considers distrust of all non jews to be justified is calling me a racist. Last time I checked im not the guy who judges most of humanity based on the actions of a few. These aren't the hottest anti-Semitic takes at all. I have said like 50 times that my issue is with Israeli policy and not with jews but you just had to pull the oppression card again. Yes both things are comparable. If you judge all non jews based on actions in the past committed by non jews then you are a racist piece of trash. No ifs ands or buts.

Otira wrote:No worries, I don't take offense from arguments made out of ignorance. Anyone who equates criticism of Israel to meaning I dislike it is someone with such a great strawman they must be filming a new Wizard of Oz.

Oh, so you're a Zionist too?

What strawman has been erected here exactly? I'm literally just not going to buy that y'all don't see the Antisemitism there.

Fahran wrote:

Otira wrote:Thank you, says everything that needs be said.

Um... The entire response matters.

Why are we all pretending like suddenly cultural, historical, and geopolitical context don't matter?

Principle is what matters, and you showed me the quality of your own.

Rojava Free State wrote:

North German Realm wrote:Except that's not what happened. You compared the legible fear that Sephardic Jews in general have of non-Jews (which has a historical basis in the persecution of Jews that is literally older than Rome as a polity and that has consistently happened in history up to 2019 AD) (and by proxy, Fahran in particular) to the Klansmen's "fear" of blacks. Neither Fahran (nor, I think, anyone else) brought up the so-called oppression Palestinians face. You just brought it up as an after-thought afterwards in a petty attempt for your justification of some of the hottest antisemitic takes I've heard on NS this last few weeks.

Can you stop calling every one who doesn't agree with you antisemitic? It's rich that someone who considers distrust of all non jews to be justified is calling me a racist. Last time I checked im not the guy who judges most of humanity based on the actions of a few. These aren't the hottest anti-Semitic takes at all. I have said like 50 times that my issue is with Israeli policy and not with jews but you just had to pull the oppression card again. Yes both things are comparable. If you judge all non jews based on actions in the past committed by non jews then you are a racist piece of trash. No ifs ands or buts.

I don't call "Everyone who disagrees with me" antisemitic. I specifically call you antisemitic because of your trend of posts in this thread which spans from suggesting all Jews are a Fifth Column to suggesting Sephardic Jews to Klansmen.

Otira wrote:Principle is what matters, and you showed me the quality of your own.

Yeah, because you're ignoring context yet again.

Russia is not an American ally. Israel is. Poland is. South Korea is. Jordan is. There's a categorical difference between protecting an ally and protecting an enemy.

I'm not a fan of israel, but I will give credit where credit is due. They did the right thing even when they knew they would suffer from a fair amount of backlash. You should never allow someone who is opposition to your existence the opportunity to speak their mind, let alone within your own country.