Israel denies entry to Reps. Omar and Tlaib

[Nakena]

Let us know when you come out of your K-hole or whatever

Sounds like an interesting place though.

[North German Realm]

Can you seriously ask that in a world where the venn diagram of countries with the death penalty for apostasy and majority Muslim countries is one circle inside another?

Tbh, a democratic index tailored to western concepts is pretty irrelevant to judging an Islamic state.

By that logic, democracy in and itself is a western concept. No, there's no such thing as "Democracy tailored to western concepts"

[The Alma Mater]

No, it does not. They responded by listening to the president, who is currently the official spokesman for the country, and who said they should deny these people entry.
It is the only politically correct way to act.

...I don't know what textbook you had in high school, but I was taught that Congress is a co-equal branch of government.

That is internal politics. To other nations, the president is the spokesman.

[Vassenor]

What does that have to do with whether a country is democratic or not? Or are we just venting the stock "Islam bad" spiels?

Low personal freedom translates into low political freedom. I will continue to go on my “Islam bad” spiels as long as Islam continues to be bad.

So yes you're just resorting to stock arguments in lieu of anything real.

[Cappuccina]

Tbh, a democratic index tailored to western concepts is pretty irrelevant to judging an Islamic state.

By that logic, democracy in and itself is a western concept. No, there's no such thing as "Democracy tailored to western concepts"

Democracy in the sense of what I'd call "soft state atheism" is a western concept. A majority Muslim nation should be theocratic in some manner, or they should simply declare themselves apostates.

[Vassenor]

Also I guess by this logic, Algeria, Bangladesh, Egypt, Indonesia, Jordan, Malaysia and Qatar aren't true Majority Muslim nations because they don't practice the death penalty for Apostasy.

[Impaled Nazarene]

Don't see why they'd ban them. I'm surprised Israel didn't invite them and then arrest them. Trump, Pelosi, McConnell would probably applaud Israel for doing so. Typically this is an act of war but its not like the establishment would lift more than the bare minimum to help them especially considering how pathetic the US Government is.

[Jean-Paul Sartre]

Also I guess by this logic, Algeria, Bangladesh, Egypt, Indonesia, Jordan, Malaysia and Qatar aren't true Majority Muslim nations because they don't practice the death penalty for Apostasy.

If you look at my quote again, you’ll see that’s not what I said. Nice try, though.

[North German Realm]

By that logic, democracy in and itself is a western concept. No, there's no such thing as "Democracy tailored to western concepts"

Democracy in the sense of what I'd call "soft state atheism" is a western concept. A majority Muslim nation should be theocratic in some manner, or they should simply declare themselves apostates.

Then expecting an index to just twist the definition of the concept of Democracy into its opposite just to tailor it to a bunch of countries that are not non-democratic but explicitly anti-democratic is a bit in bad faith. The concept of democracy is universal. Some countries and ideologies just aren't democratic.

[Neko-koku]

OK I need to be more specific. Personal freedom and political freedom aren't the same. China for example is OK on the former but extremely awful on the latter. Pakistan is the other way around.

Healthy democracy requires political freedom but not personal freedom. A highly religious or strongly nationalist state often lacks personal freedom for personal freedom includes freedom to break prevalent norms. However it can still be democratic.

China has millions of people in concentration camps based on ethnicity and religion and is basically publicly mulling massacring people in Hong Kong, while Pakistan is run by a hideously corrupt deep state of military and intelligence apparatchiks who routinely consort with terrorists.

Let us know when you come out of your K-hole or whatever

See? About everything there is a matter of degree.

In terms of personal freedom at least folks in China have the freedom to not be killed by their parents while folks in the Muslim world mostly don't. Even in India parents do have more power compared to China.

In terms of political freedom in Pakistan you can vote and people from different political parties can be in power. So it is at least better than Singapore and other dominant party countries, let alone China and NK. Despite being horribly authoritarian by Western standards Pakistan IS more democratic than many countries.

[Jean-Paul Sartre]

Low personal freedom translates into low political freedom. I will continue to go on my “Islam bad” spiels as long as Islam continues to be bad.

So yes you're just resorting to stock arguments in lieu of anything real.

It is “real” (however you use that) that Islam is an oppressive religion and deserves to be stomped out.

[Vassenor]

Also I guess by this logic, Algeria, Bangladesh, Egypt, Indonesia, Jordan, Malaysia and Qatar aren't true Majority Muslim nations because they don't practice the death penalty for Apostasy.

If you look at my quote again, you’ll see that’s not what I said. Nice try, though.

So you're saying that because a few of the majority muslim nations practice death for blasphemy that all majority muslim nations are inherently undemocratic?

[Jean-Paul Sartre]

If you look at my quote again, you’ll see that’s not what I said. Nice try, though.

So you're saying that because a few of the majority muslim nations practice death for blasphemy that all majority muslim nations are inherently undemocratic?

Find me one that you think is comparable to most Western democracies, and I’ll give you a cookie.

[North German Realm]

If you look at my quote again, you’ll see that’s not what I said. Nice try, though.

So you're saying that because a few of the majority muslim nations practice death for blasphemy that all majority muslim nations are inherently undemocratic?

It's less about countries being non-democratic and more about Islam as a political ideology being anti-democratic.

[North German Realm]

So you're saying that because a few of the majority muslim nations practice death for blasphemy that all majority muslim nations are inherently undemocratic?

Find me one that you think is comparable to most Western democracies, and I’ll give you a cookie.

Malaysia is Muslim majority but it's a flawed democracy (which is like, most Western Countries).

[Vassenor]

So you're saying that because a few of the majority muslim nations practice death for blasphemy that all majority muslim nations are inherently undemocratic?

Find me one that you think is comparable to most Western democracies, and I’ll give you a cookie.

Using the GDI as a reference, Indonesia currently scores a 6.39. Comparable to Romania or Croatia.

[Neko-koku]

By that logic, democracy in and itself is a western concept. No, there's no such thing as "Democracy tailored to western concepts"

Democracy in the sense of what I'd call "soft state atheism" is a western concept. A majority Muslim nation should be theocratic in some manner, or they should simply declare themselves apostates.

I won't say that "not having a state religion" is "soft state atheism". However crucially in any state that protects individual rights pretty much no organized religion with a criminal law can function.

[Cappuccina]

Also I guess by this logic, Algeria, Bangladesh, Egypt, Indonesia, Jordan, Malaysia and Qatar aren't true Majority Muslim nations because they don't practice the death penalty for Apostasy.

Apostasy isn't necessarily punishable by death, that's a popular opinion in Islam, but is by no means absolute.

Democracy in the sense of what I'd call "soft state atheism" is a western concept. A majority Muslim nation should be theocratic in some manner, or they should simply declare themselves apostates.

Then expecting an index to just twist the definition of the concept of Democracy into its opposite just to tailor it to a bunch of countries that are not non-democratic but explicitly anti-democratic is a bit in bad faith. The concept of democracy is universal. Some countries and ideologies just aren't democratic.

The unbelievers can keep their Index for their own countries, how about that? No one cares if you twist you definitions or not we aren't concerned with your measurements, a Muslim nation should only be concerned with it's ablity to adhere to Islam and how best to achieve that end.

[Jean-Paul Sartre]

Find me one that you think is comparable to most Western democracies, and I’ll give you a cookie.

Using the GDI as a reference, Indonesia currently scores a 6.39. Comparable to Romania or Croatia.

Ah yes, because when I think “democracy”, I think “Romania”. As in, the place that was ruled by commies until 30 years ago and is still recovering.

[Vassenor]

Also I guess by this logic, Algeria, Bangladesh, Egypt, Indonesia, Jordan, Malaysia and Qatar aren't true Majority Muslim nations because they don't practice the death penalty for Apostasy.

Apostasy isn't necessarily punishable by death, that's a popular opinion in Islam, but is by no means absolute.

Can you seriously ask that in a world where the venn diagram of countries with the death penalty for apostasy and majority Muslim countries is one circle inside another?

The logic in question. Implying that all majority Muslim countries fit into the "death penalty for Apostasy" category.

[North German Realm]

Also I guess by this logic, Algeria, Bangladesh, Egypt, Indonesia, Jordan, Malaysia and Qatar aren't true Majority Muslim nations because they don't practice the death penalty for Apostasy.

Apostasy isn't necessarily punishable by death, that's a popular opinion in Islam, but is by no means absolute.

Then expecting an index to just twist the definition of the concept of Democracy into its opposite just to tailor it to a bunch of countries that are not non-democratic but explicitly anti-democratic is a bit in bad faith. The concept of democracy is universal. Some countries and ideologies just aren't democratic.

The unbelievers can keep their Index for their own countries, how about that? No one cares if you twist you definitions or not we aren't concerned with your measurements, a Muslim nation should only be concerned with it's ablity to adhere to Islam and how best to achieve that end.

Sure, that works. It's basically shoving your own head into snow and pretending everything's fine, but it works. But when you say "that index doesn't work on our countries because it doesn't twist itself into something it isn't just so we don't score low", you're the one who's concerning yourself with "our" measurements.

[Jean-Paul Sartre]

Apostasy isn't necessarily punishable by death, that's a popular opinion in Islam, but is by no means absolute.

Can you seriously ask that in a world where the venn diagram of countries with the death penalty for apostasy and majority Muslim countries is one circle inside another?

The logic in question. Implying that all majority Muslim countries fit into the "death penalty for Apostasy" category.

Cite where I said that

[Neko-koku]

The West isn't actually fully protecting women's rights and children's rights now. Otherwise most forms of Islam won't be able to function at all since they are collectivistic.

[Vassenor]

The logic in question. Implying that all majority Muslim countries fit into the "death penalty for Apostasy" category.

Cite where I said that

>Quotes a post with a link to where you said it

>claims you never said it

[Jean-Paul Sartre]

Cite where I said that

>Quotes a post with a link to where you said it

>claims you never said it

I did not imply that. I said it’s one circle inside another. I did not specify which was in which, sure, but that’s besides the point.