Israel denies entry to Reps. Omar and Tlaib

[Neko-koku]

The islamic Republic is a mutli-layered hybrid system and a pretty smart one at that. They're more advanced than lets say the USSR or the PRC, by introducing a democratic element to which they outsource various politics while all the hard matters of state security and the likes remain in the hand of the Supreme Leader and his apparatus.

So the civilian government acts as a buffer.

Yes, it is already way better than PRC and North Korea.

[North German Realm]

Not really. All three have a higher score on most democracy indexes than Iran does. For one, Kuwait and Jordan and Qatar are all Authoritarian regimes but still score about 1 point higher than Iran in the Democracy Index. In fact, of the 17 countries that are actually worse than Iran in that index, only 5 are Islamic; one is an absolute monarchy, three are in a state of civil war, and one just had a revolution.

Does any index measuring democracy that DOESN'T place PRC and North Korea in the bottom 5 make sense?

Ironically enough, China scores higher than Iran. DPRK is literally the least democratic country (1.08) tho so Idk.

[Jean-Paul Sartre]

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Who gives a shit? The monarch doesn't have any real power these days. Comparing a democracy where you're allowed to call for the removal of the monarch to any Muslim nation is hilarious.

What does Islam specifically have to do with whether a state is democratic or not?

Can you seriously ask that in a world where the venn diagram of countries with the death penalty for apostasy and majority Muslim countries is one circle inside another?

[Nakena]

The islamic Republic is a mutli-layered hybrid system and a pretty smart one at that. They're more advanced than lets say the USSR or the PRC, by introducing a democratic element to which they outsource various politics while all the hard matters of state security and the likes remain in the hand of the Supreme Leader and his apparatus.

So the civilian government acts as a buffer.

That's how it's supposed to happen in theory. In action, all this does is the civil government not being able to do anything while both the Leader and the President blame each other (i.e. Rohani says "'The Shadow Government' didn't allow us to do this" while Khamenei goes "I told them this wouldn't happen, but did they listen? noooooooooo. I just allowed them to do it because I'm a gudboi that doesn't abuse his authority.")

Thats actually quite amusing to think of it.

[Neko-koku]

Does any index measuring democracy that DOESN'T place PRC and North Korea in the bottom 5 make sense?

Ironically enough, China scores higher than Iran. DPRK is literally the least democratic country (1.08) tho so Idk.

Yeah. So the index doesn't measure democracy well. How can people who can choose between multiple presidential candidates and don't have concentration camps have LESS democracy than those who can't and do have them?

It is true that as a society China is a lot less restrictive than Iran because China is secular. However that has nothing to do with whether Iran is less democratic than China.

[The Alma Mater]

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What does Islam specifically have to do with whether a state is democratic or not?

Can you seriously ask that in a world where the venn diagram of countries with the death penalty for apostasy and majority Muslim countries is one circle inside another?

Which has nothing to do with democracy.

[Jean-Paul Sartre]

Can you seriously ask that in a world where the venn diagram of countries with the death penalty for apostasy and majority Muslim countries is one circle inside another?

Which has nothing to do with democracy.

"Free expression has nothing to do with democracy"

Nice take there

[Neko-koku]

Which has nothing to do with democracy.

"Free expression has nothing to do with democracy"

Nice take there

It actually doesn't. Do the people decide politics or not? If the majority vote a Hitler or a Chavez in that process isn't undemocratic.

Freedom and democracy aren't the same.

[Jean-Paul Sartre]

"Free expression has nothing to do with democracy"

Nice take there

It actually doesn't. Do the people decide politics or not? If the majority vote a Hitler or a Chavez in that process isn't undemocratic.

Freedom and democracy aren't the same.

That is incorrect. Democracy is freedom to vote. A vote cannot be considered free, I would argue, if there are things like voter intimidation, confounding factors like corruption, bad systems, etc.

[Senkaku]

the israelis need to watch out lol, presidents come and go but congress members can stick around for a while... the way bibi and trump have managed to inject the israel-palestine issue into US domestic politics is frankly a big security risk for Israel

[The Alma Mater]

Which has nothing to do with democracy.

"Free expression has nothing to do with democracy"

Nice take there

Yes ? It hasn't. Democracy is not nice if the majority is not.

[The Alma Mater]

the israelis need to watch out lol, presidents come and go but congress members can stick around for a while...

True; but Israel should not concern itself with internal US politics. Only with what its official spokeman says.

[North German Realm]

the israelis need to watch out lol, presidents come and go but congress members can stick around for a while... the way bibi and trump have managed to inject the israel-palestine issue into US domestic politics is frankly a big security risk for Israel

Honestly this. I don't disagree with the act of denied entry to actual and evident threats like Omar and Tlaib; but Bibi's policy, since Trump's come to office, has basically forgotten that the US doesn't function as a parliamentary democracy where the political power can remain in one hand for entire decades before they're removed. If the next US government and congress aren't Republican majority, it's going to end terribly for both Bibi and Israel.

[Jean-Paul Sartre]

"Free expression has nothing to do with democracy"

Nice take there

Yes ? It hasn't. Democracy is not nice if the majority is not.

I would argue that we're conflating two separate terms for democracy here: freedom to vote in good faith, with good information, without hindrance and a simple majority process. I'm using the former. Of course the simple majority process has nothing to do, technically, with freedom, but who is even allowed to vote is a question of the first definition.

[Neko-koku]

It actually doesn't. Do the people decide politics or not? If the majority vote a Hitler or a Chavez in that process isn't undemocratic.

Freedom and democracy aren't the same.

That is incorrect. Democracy is freedom to vote. A vote cannot be considered free, I would argue, if there are things like voter intimidation, confounding factors like corruption, bad systems, etc.

OK I need to be more specific. Personal freedom and political freedom aren't the same. China for example is OK on the former but extremely awful on the latter. Pakistan is the other way around.

Healthy democracy requires political freedom but not personal freedom. A highly religious or strongly nationalist state often lacks personal freedom for personal freedom includes freedom to break prevalent norms. However it can still be democratic.

[Jean-Paul Sartre]

That is incorrect. Democracy is freedom to vote. A vote cannot be considered free, I would argue, if there are things like voter intimidation, confounding factors like corruption, bad systems, etc.

OK I need to be more specific. Personal freedom and political freedom aren't the same. China for example is OK on the former but extremely awful on the latter. Pakistan is the other way around.

Healthy democracy requires political freedom but not personal freedom.

If you want to characterize Pakistan as a healthy democracy, I've got a bridge to sell you.

[Nakena]

the israelis need to watch out lol, presidents come and go but congress members can stick around for a while... the way bibi and trump have managed to inject the israel-palestine issue into US domestic politics is frankly a big security risk for Israel

Honestly this. I don't disagree with the act of denied entry to actual and evident threats like Omar and Tlaib; but Bibi's policy, since Trump's come to office, has basically forgotten that the US doesn't function as a parliamentary democracy where the political power can remain in one hand for entire decades before they're removed. If the next US government and congress aren't Republican majority, it's going to end terribly for both Bibi and Israel.

No they will not so quickly turn on Greatest Ally ™

Not as long as even Nancy Pelosi calls them "the great State of Israel". What the fuck even.

[Kowani]

That is incorrect. Democracy is freedom to vote. A vote cannot be considered free, I would argue, if there are things like voter intimidation, confounding factors like corruption, bad systems, etc.

OK I need to be more specific. Personal freedom and political freedom aren't the same. China for example is OK on the former but extremely awful on the latter. Pakistan is the other way around.

Healthy democracy requires political freedom but not personal freedom.

A healthy democracy without personal freedom just has a cancer that hasn’t metastasized yet.

[Senkaku]

the israelis need to watch out lol, presidents come and go but congress members can stick around for a while...

True; but Israel should not concern itself with internal US politics. Only with what its official spokeman says.

I know they shouldn't. But this action demonstrates that they are concerning themselves-- Bibi and Trump have tied themselves to each other for domestic political purposes and neither gives a shit about the interests of his country in the long run, just their personal gain.

the israelis need to watch out lol, presidents come and go but congress members can stick around for a while... the way bibi and trump have managed to inject the israel-palestine issue into US domestic politics is frankly a big security risk for Israel

Honestly this. I don't disagree with the act of denied entry to actual and evident threats like Omar and Tlaib;

tag yourself I'm Olenna Tyrell asking cersei "are you going to kill them all by yourself?" but cersei is Omar and Tlaib as apparently seen by you lol

They support boycotts/sanctions because they're critical of Israeli policy towards Palestine, let's not find every synonym there is for "clear and present danger" lol

"actual and evident threat"
"real and current hazard"
"physical and contemporary risk"

but Bibi's policy, since Trump's come to office, has basically forgotten that the US doesn't function as a parliamentary democracy where the political power can remain in one hand for entire decades before they're removed. If the next US government and congress aren't Republican majority, it's going to end terribly for both Bibi and Israel.

I don't think the Dems are idiots or so one-note pro-Palestine that they'd just throw Israel overboard, but hopefully they actually pressure the Israelis to rein their shit in. We let them run roughshod over us and everyone else far too often.

[The Alma Mater]

True; but Israel should not concern itself with internal US politics. Only with what its official spokeman says.

I know they shouldn't. But this action demonstrates that they are concerning themselves

No, it does not. They responded by listening to the president, who is currently the official spokesman for the country, and who said they should deny these people entry.
It is the only politically correct way to act.

[Senkaku]

That is incorrect. Democracy is freedom to vote. A vote cannot be considered free, I would argue, if there are things like voter intimidation, confounding factors like corruption, bad systems, etc.

OK I need to be more specific. Personal freedom and political freedom aren't the same. China for example is OK on the former but extremely awful on the latter. Pakistan is the other way around.

Healthy democracy requires political freedom but not personal freedom. A highly religious or strongly nationalist state often lacks personal freedom for personal freedom includes freedom to break prevalent norms. However it can still be democratic.

China has millions of people in concentration camps based on ethnicity and religion and is basically publicly mulling massacring people in Hong Kong, while Pakistan is run by a hideously corrupt deep state of military and intelligence apparatchiks who routinely consort with terrorists.

Let us know when you come out of your K-hole or whatever

[Vassenor]

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What does Islam specifically have to do with whether a state is democratic or not?

Can you seriously ask that in a world where the venn diagram of countries with the death penalty for apostasy and majority Muslim countries is one circle inside another?

What does that have to do with whether a country is democratic or not? Or are we just venting the stock "Islam bad" spiels?

[Senkaku]

I know they shouldn't. But this action demonstrates that they are concerning themselves

No, it does not. They responded by listening to the president, who is currently the official spokesman for the country, and who said they should deny these people entry.
It is the only politically correct way to act.

...I don't know what textbook you had in high school, but I was taught that Congress is a co-equal branch of government.

[Jean-Paul Sartre]

Can you seriously ask that in a world where the venn diagram of countries with the death penalty for apostasy and majority Muslim countries is one circle inside another?

What does that have to do with whether a country is democratic or not? Or are we just venting the stock "Islam bad" spiels?

Low personal freedom translates into low political freedom. I will continue to go on my “Islam bad” spiels as long as Islam continues to be bad.

[Cappuccina]

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What does Islam specifically have to do with whether a state is democratic or not?

Can you seriously ask that in a world where the venn diagram of countries with the death penalty for apostasy and majority Muslim countries is one circle inside another?

Tbh, a democratic index tailored to western concepts is pretty irrelevant to judging an Islamic state.