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Are Police for the most part good or bad?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Are Police good or bad?

For the most part good
98
82%
For the most part bad
22
18%
 
Total votes : 120

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Xmara
Minister
 
Posts: 3082
Founded: Mar 31, 2014
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Xmara » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:16 pm

I’ll join back in this argument later. I’m on mobile and my internet connection is crap.
/ˈzmaːrʌ/
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Emulation White
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 189
Founded: May 05, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Emulation White » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:18 pm

Ethel mermania wrote:
Emulation White wrote:
Law enforcement is inherently biased, it is a moral precedent applied universally, that is bias against those it punishes. Societies are capable of creating order without a third party, this is demonstrable by pre-law enforcement communities. We don't need to stop people from harming others on a systematic macro scale. There is no benefit to punishing as many "criminals" as we can; that is a waste of time, resources and genetic material. Societies can stabilize themselves, generally speaking.


In the absence of a justice system, that criminal is not going to get rehabbed, he is going to get killed.


I assume this an ethical point, I typically am not one to debate ethics and morals, but I appreciate the engagement so I will make an effort, bear with me. Hmm, but for those who are sent to prison, it further alienates them from society and I can confidently tell you prison hardens some types, helps them with networking and learning new skills applicable to their lifestyle. It also very difficult on the loved ones of the person. Ethically, I see the cycle as oscillating suffering between all parties involved, not to mention the tax payer who is financing the whole theatre of it.

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LiberNovusAmericae
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6945
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:18 pm

Emulation White wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:We need police, but we need police reform, and to end civil asset forfeiture abuse.


I keep seeing this "we NEED police". Why do we need police? There is no demonstrable benefit to slightly lower rates of violence. The police only damage natural gene pools by eliminating individuals with different traits and destroying people's self-responsibility and autonomy. Law enforcement is possibly the most unnecessary apparatus ever created.

Well, people deserve a basic form of protection against violent scumbags. If the gene pool suffers (and it probably won't), so be it.
China Lied, People Died.
Anti-imperialism is really code for anti-west.
Not to be confused with Novus America! We are NOT the same player.

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Emulation White
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 189
Founded: May 05, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Emulation White » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:21 pm

Xmara wrote:
Emulation White wrote:
It is absolutely not, please look this over if you feel inclined and we will go from there.

https://thealternativehypothesis.org/in ... evolution/

Oh joy, a “race realist” site.


I implore you to not be an idealogical soldier and instead be as detached and objective whilst analyzing the information as possible, please.

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Kernen
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6388
Founded: Mar 02, 2011
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Kernen » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:25 pm

The eugenics rant has really put a damper on what would otherwise be a fascinating conversation about individual guarantees of liberty and policing.
From the throne of Khan Juk i'Behemoti, Juk Who-Is-The-Strength-of-the-Behemoth, Supreme Khan of the Ogres of Kernen. May the Khan ever drink the blood of his enemies!

Lawful Evil

Get abortions, do drugs, own guns, but never misstate legal procedure.

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Emulation White
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 189
Founded: May 05, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Emulation White » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:28 pm

Kowani wrote:
Emulation White wrote:
Yes, I am. It is a detriment. All that money could be put into education, economic development, etc. "Crime" also solves itself, the most anti-social types would most likely keep decreasing their presence in the gene pool because of their behavior. Whereas the rest would be diluted by being able to mix freely with "non-criminal" type people, thus benefiting society by giving birth to a population with a wider and more dynamic cognitive and genetic spectrum. Something biology loves is natural diversity, which is why evolution always seeks to have as much genetic variety in given populations as possible.

You know, in Sicily after WWII, the Mafia had a self propagating effect.


I'm not against that. My position isn't that my theory would eliminate "crime". If anything I just want to blur the lines, so we can have more diversity of physical bodies (criminals have more testosterone and less inclined to sexual disfunction as a result) and more cognitive diversity (more dynamic people who have the ability to see the world through a wider spectrum)

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Jack Thomas Lang
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1856
Founded: Apr 18, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Jack Thomas Lang » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:30 pm

Police are good, yes. If you don't have the political capital to change poverty or other reasons leading to crime, the more police, the better.

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Kowani
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24284
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:31 pm

Emulation White wrote:
Kowani wrote:You know, in Sicily after WWII, the Mafia had a self propagating effect.


I'm not against that. My position isn't that my theory would eliminate "crime". If anything I just want to blur the lines, so we can have more diversity of physical bodies (criminals have more testosterone and less inclined to sexual disfunction as a result) and more cognitive diversity (more dynamic people who have the ability to see the world through a wider spectrum)

Ignoring the point that neither cognitive diversity nor physical diversity are inherently good for a moment, that’s a terrible position for a society.
Spanish-American Atheist.
“The time has come to call evil out as evil, and we shall not apologize for naming brutality.”
NSG's resident data enthusiast.
Ni dios, ni rey, ni patria, ni amo


Telconi wrote:Every once in a while Kowani does have a decent point.

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Emulation White
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 189
Founded: May 05, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Emulation White » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:33 pm

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Emulation White wrote:
I keep seeing this "we NEED police". Why do we need police? There is no demonstrable benefit to slightly lower rates of violence. The police only damage natural gene pools by eliminating individuals with different traits and destroying people's self-responsibility and autonomy. Law enforcement is possibly the most unnecessary apparatus ever created.

Well, people deserve a basic form of protection against violent scumbags. If the gene pool suffers (and it probably won't), so be it.


A scientifically erroneous conclusion from an arbitrary moral perspective. So my counter is why do need a government financed apparatus for that? You could just find like minded individuals like yourself to enforce your morality if you are so committed to virulent hatred of naturally occuring types of humans.

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Emulation White
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 189
Founded: May 05, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Emulation White » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:34 pm

Kernen wrote:The eugenics rant has really put a damper on what would otherwise be a fascinating conversation about individual guarantees of liberty and policing.


Nobody is inhibiting that discussion, do not blame me or anyone else for that.

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Scomagia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18703
Founded: Apr 14, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Scomagia » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:36 pm

Kernen wrote:The eugenics rant has really put a damper on what would otherwise be a fascinating conversation about individual guarantees of liberty and policing.

Yup. It's very sad.

Incidentally, for anyone who is curious, here's a Reddit post with a good takedown of the man behind that garbage site: https://www.reddit.com/r/badscience/com ... =post_body

Can we get back to police, now?
Insert trite farewell here

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Emulation White
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 189
Founded: May 05, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Emulation White » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:37 pm

Kowani wrote:
Emulation White wrote:
I'm not against that. My position isn't that my theory would eliminate "crime". If anything I just want to blur the lines, so we can have more diversity of physical bodies (criminals have more testosterone and less inclined to sexual disfunction as a result) and more cognitive diversity (more dynamic people who have the ability to see the world through a wider spectrum)

Ignoring the point that neither cognitive diversity nor physical diversity are inherently good for a moment, that’s a terrible position for a society.


That is objectively incorrect, please watch this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOfRN0KihOU

It is not terrible, it is only terrible to you.

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Kernen
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6388
Founded: Mar 02, 2011
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Kernen » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:38 pm

Emulation White wrote:
Kernen wrote:The eugenics rant has really put a damper on what would otherwise be a fascinating conversation about individual guarantees of liberty and policing.


Nobody is inhibiting that discussion, do not blame me or anyone else for that.


People go after the low hanging fruit. Your arguments are scraping the leaf litter. You are to blame.
From the throne of Khan Juk i'Behemoti, Juk Who-Is-The-Strength-of-the-Behemoth, Supreme Khan of the Ogres of Kernen. May the Khan ever drink the blood of his enemies!

Lawful Evil

Get abortions, do drugs, own guns, but never misstate legal procedure.

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Andsed
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10043
Founded: Aug 24, 2017
New York Times Democracy

Postby Andsed » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:39 pm

Emulation White wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Well, people deserve a basic form of protection against violent scumbags. If the gene pool suffers (and it probably won't), so be it.


A scientifically erroneous conclusion from an arbitrary moral perspective. So my counter is why do need a government financed apparatus for that? You could just find like minded individuals like yourself to enforce your morality if you are so committed to virulent hatred of naturally occuring types of humans.

1, Vigilante justice is not a good idea despite what comics say.

2. Are you trying to suggest that it is okay for people to murder and steal and generally harm others? Because it seems like you are.
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Kowani
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24284
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:41 pm

Emulation White wrote:
Kowani wrote:Ignoring the point that neither cognitive diversity nor physical diversity are inherently good for a moment, that’s a terrible position for a society.


That is objectively incorrect, please watch this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOfRN0KihOU

It is not terrible, it is only terrible to you.

What I’m getting is you committing the naturalistic fallacy.
Spanish-American Atheist.
“The time has come to call evil out as evil, and we shall not apologize for naming brutality.”
NSG's resident data enthusiast.
Ni dios, ni rey, ni patria, ni amo


Telconi wrote:Every once in a while Kowani does have a decent point.

User avatar
Emulation White
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 189
Founded: May 05, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Emulation White » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:41 pm

Scomagia wrote:
Kernen wrote:The eugenics rant has really put a damper on what would otherwise be a fascinating conversation about individual guarantees of liberty and policing.

Yup. It's very sad.

Incidentally, for anyone who is curious, here's a Reddit post with a good takedown of the man behind that garbage site: https://www.reddit.com/r/badscience/com ... =post_body

Can we get back to police, now?


Not a takedown at all. Anthropologists are not geneticists, along with other glaring errors in this smear. Too much idealogy and intellectual cowardice from you.

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Geneviev
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14244
Founded: Mar 03, 2018
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Geneviev » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:42 pm

Emulation White wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Well, people deserve a basic form of protection against violent scumbags. If the gene pool suffers (and it probably won't), so be it.


A scientifically erroneous conclusion from an arbitrary moral perspective. So my counter is why do need a government financed apparatus for that? You could just find like minded individuals like yourself to enforce your morality if you are so committed to virulent hatred of naturally occuring types of humans.

1. It's not "natural," as you claim.
2. Preventing crime protects people, which is the moral thing to do. If it is done by the government, there will be actual order to the enforcement.
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LiberNovusAmericae
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6945
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:43 pm

Emulation White wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Well, people deserve a basic form of protection against violent scumbags. If the gene pool suffers (and it probably won't), so be it.


A scientifically erroneous conclusion from an arbitrary moral perspective. So my counter is why do need a government financed apparatus for that? You could just find like minded individuals like yourself to enforce your morality if you are so committed to virulent hatred of naturally occuring types of humans.

My group would have insufficient funding to investigate crimes and punish criminals. What would I even do with captured criminals? Not every crime is worthy of a death sentence.
China Lied, People Died.
Anti-imperialism is really code for anti-west.
Not to be confused with Novus America! We are NOT the same player.

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Emulation White
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 189
Founded: May 05, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Emulation White » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:44 pm

Kernen wrote:
Emulation White wrote:
Nobody is inhibiting that discussion, do not blame me or anyone else for that.


People go after the low hanging fruit. Your arguments are scraping the leaf litter. You are to blame.


Honestly, scientific ramifications of societal initives is not low hanging fruit. Take responsibility for not being able to havd the discussion you want, that is on you and you alone.

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Greater vakolicci haven
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18660
Founded: May 09, 2014
Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:45 pm

I suspect I'm the inspiration for this thread, so you already know what I think: bad. Police are around to deprive you of your rights and to enforce the states view on the public. You don't join the police force because you have a love of protecting people, you join it because you like the power and authority it gives you over the average citizen.
Join the rejected realms and never fear rejection again
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“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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LiberNovusAmericae
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6945
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:47 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:I suspect I'm the inspiration for this thread, so you already know what I think: bad. Police are around to deprive you of your rights and to enforce the states view on the public. You don't join the police force because you have a love of protecting people, you join it because you like the power and authority it gives you over the average citizen.

I'm very libertarian, but some type of force must exist to capture and bring criminals to justice.
China Lied, People Died.
Anti-imperialism is really code for anti-west.
Not to be confused with Novus America! We are NOT the same player.

User avatar
Kernen
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6388
Founded: Mar 02, 2011
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Kernen » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:47 pm

Emulation White wrote:
Kernen wrote:
People go after the low hanging fruit. Your arguments are scraping the leaf litter. You are to blame.


Honestly, scientific ramifications of societal initives is not low hanging fruit. Take responsibility for not being able to havd the discussion you want, that is on you and you alone.


Your arguments are debunked supremacist dog whistling. That is low hanging fruit.
From the throne of Khan Juk i'Behemoti, Juk Who-Is-The-Strength-of-the-Behemoth, Supreme Khan of the Ogres of Kernen. May the Khan ever drink the blood of his enemies!

Lawful Evil

Get abortions, do drugs, own guns, but never misstate legal procedure.

User avatar
Greater vakolicci haven
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18660
Founded: May 09, 2014
Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:48 pm

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:I suspect I'm the inspiration for this thread, so you already know what I think: bad. Police are around to deprive you of your rights and to enforce the states view on the public. You don't join the police force because you have a love of protecting people, you join it because you like the power and authority it gives you over the average citizen.

I'm very libertarian, but some type of force must exist to capture and bring criminals to justice.

Why?
Join the rejected realms and never fear rejection again
NSG virtual happy hour this Saturday: join us on zoom, what could possibly go wrong?
“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

User avatar
Scomagia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18703
Founded: Apr 14, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Scomagia » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:49 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:I suspect I'm the inspiration for this thread, so you already know what I think: bad. Police are around to deprive you of your rights and to enforce the states view on the public. You don't join the police force because you have a love of protecting people, you join it because you like the power and authority it gives you over the average citizen.

You there! Stop! I need to see your sources! :p

But seriously, I would like to see some sources. That's an awfully strong assertion to give without evidence.
Last edited by Scomagia on Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Insert trite farewell here

User avatar
Emulation White
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 189
Founded: May 05, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Emulation White » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:49 pm

Kowani wrote:
Emulation White wrote:
That is objectively incorrect, please watch this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOfRN0KihOU

It is not terrible, it is only terrible to you.

What I’m getting is you committing the naturalistic fallacy.


No, my intention is not to revere any sort of abstract "natural order", it is to analyze the lessons evolution gives divorced from human arrogance, bias and hubris and weigh the cost and benefit of them.

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