Right-Wing Discussion Thread XVII: The Snark Enlightenment

[Purgatio]

What constitutes legitimacy?

A legitimate monarch is one who acquires the throne legally according to the established law and customs of their society. In the UK, and most European monarchies, bloodline is what determines a person's eligibility for the throne, and their right is ultimately derived from God.

With the exception of Vatican City of course

[Jean-Paul Sartre]

A legitimate monarch is one who acquires the throne legally according to the established law and customs of their society. In the UK, and most European monarchies, bloodline is what determines a person's eligibility for the throne, and their right is ultimately derived from God.

With the exception of Vatican City of course

If God ordained the pope, why is his kingdom so small? Sounds like a lame god.

[Purgatio]

With the exception of Vatican City of course

If God ordained the pope, why is his kingdom so small? Sounds like a lame god.

Because Mussolini and accidents of history, I guess

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

What constitutes legitimacy?

A legitimate monarch is one who acquires the throne legally according to the established law and customs of their society. In the UK, and most European monarchies, bloodline is what determines a person's eligibility for the throne, and their right is ultimately derived from God.

I don't think legality alone should determine legitimacy.

[Jean-Paul Sartre]

If God ordained the pope, why is his kingdom so small? Sounds like a lame god.

Because Mussolini and accidents of history, I guess

Would’ve thought God’s voice on Earth would have foreseen that

[Jack Thomas Lang]

John Paul II might not have been a paedophile himself, but he was responsible for a massive international conspiracy aimed at concealing and protecting those that were. That seems something worth drawing attention to. And this is a man the Roman Catholic Church has recognised as a saint and often describes as "the Great."

Spare me the "love and respect for fellow Christians" bullshit. I've dealt with enough of your kind to know that it's all just a lie, and I've seen the hatred and corruption hiding beneath all that pious talk. The only things your church care about are power and control.

Do you have evidence of this? I can't claim to be an expert on Pope John Paul II, but his wiki page doesn't suggest anything of the sort beyond discontinuing an investigation into one pedophile Marcial Maciel and the accusation of being slow to respond (even though respond he did, and it describes how in detail).

I think you're viciously projecting on Catholics and the Church. If you've had bad experiences with Catholics, I can only quote Mathew 6:14-15, unless you consider that bullshit too.

[Duvniask]

By subscribing to moral nihilism you paint yourself into a corner. You cannot derive any normative values from anywhere, because you deny their existence. It denies that there is any worth to anything you will say. It means there's no reason to listen to you and that you have no right to complain about anything. Ever.

I’m tempted to be pedantic, but this is, well. Wrong.

Be pedantic.

[Purgatio]

Because Mussolini and accidents of history, I guess

Would’ve thought God’s voice on Earth would have foreseen that

You'd think, right? You'd also think God's Vicar wouldn't see the Papal States rolled back and taken over during the Risorgimento in the first place

[Nakena]

Because Mussolini and accidents of history, I guess

Would’ve thought God’s voice on Earth would have foreseen that

Papal States were generally regarded backwards and miserable by all metrics in the 19th century and almost nobody missed them when italian troops dismantled them.

[Kowani]

I’m tempted to be pedantic, but this is, well. Wrong.

Be pedantic.

I would, but I’m exhausted and would do an even shittier job of defending my views than the monumental clusterfuck that was earlier. So, I’m doing this tomorrow. Sorry.

[Hanafuridake]

A small fine for actively disseminating or possessing religious literature, public apologetics of religion, and the giving of church services or celebration of religious holidays. Said fines increase depending on the number of offenses.

You think that the vast majority of people would ever agree to enforce something this petty and pointless? You don't see the extreme corruption this would cause as police officers started taking bribes, or the civil unrest which would lead to giant protests even if it were able to be passed into law? This totalitarian state would be even worse than Stalin or Lenin's because at least those two offered a semi-positive program (a better world where there was no famine and dialectical materialism replaced religion as the civic cult).

[Nea Byzantia]

I'm not disputing the name, but it seems less like a revolution, and more like an election that the theocrats lost. I'm not supportive of social democratic economic policies, but the secularization of government is a good thing.

Also, the Quebec Liberal Party does not even seem close to being communist. It's a social democratic party at most, and it is considered center-right in Canadian politics.

It might not have been a "revolution" in the most literal sense, but their was a dramatic shift in the province's political landscape.

It not only wrecked the political landscape; it messed up the social and cultural landscape too. The Quebecois Nation used to pride itself on being a bastion of Francophonie and Roman Catholicism in North America; they used to take great joy in telling the Anglos (and Americans for that matter) to go where the sun don't shine. They used to be rich, hard-working, conservative, family-minded folk. Back in the Duplessis Era (1944 - 1959; which the Liberals call "La Grande Noirceur" - the Great Darkness) this was how things were, and there was a lot of energy and high-hopes among the Quebecois (and genuine fears in Ottawa that the Quebecois might decide to go their own way). All of that began to change after Duplessis' untimely death in 1959. The Provincial Government fell to secularist liberals who booted the Roman Catholic Church out of public life. Previously to this, the Church had a stranglehold on Education, Healthcare, and Social Services in general; the Government seized all of this and centralized it under its own authority. It was not long before these political changes bore fruit: contraceptives (and later abortions) became popular among women, divorce skyrocketed, and the Quebecois population began to decline. Many of the old Christian virtues such as self-control vanished; and it was not long before the Province fell into debt and hedonism (much like the rest of North America in those times); and it is still stuck in that rut to this day.

But as bad a shape as Quebec is in; at least they still have some sense of national and cultural identity (this is especially visible outside of Montreal; especially Quebec City). Believe it or not, Anglo Canada is even worse. They have absolutely no sense of who they are. I suspect this is because Anglo Canada's identity has always been bound up with the British Empire and the British Crown - the trappings of the Loyalists who founded Anglo Canada - and as that becomes less and less relevant; Anglo Canadian identity begins to fade. At this point, "Canadianness" has been reduced to beer, hockey, and saying "sorry" all the time. What kind of a Nation is this? Oh, right, its not. Its a Multi-National State. In that sense, Justin Trudeau is right when he claims "there is no Canadian Nation" - he's just right for the wrong reasons.

I'm living in Quebec and I grew up here, so maybe I see things a little differently. How do the Anglo Canucks of RWDT see things? Am I far off in my analysis?

[Nea Byzantia]

Reminder to always hate Neoliberalism:

Although both Reagan and Carter took steps to protect domestic steel producers from foreign competition, they ruled out much more interventionist and costly schemes that would have transformed the industry. The Carter administration, for example, refused to provide financial support to a group of community leaders in Youngstown, Ohio who were attempting to buy mills that America’s largest steel corporations had abandoned. Convinced that plant shutdowns were inevitable and that the nation’s largest steel corporations needed to tackle their own problems Carter also dismissed a US$10 billion publicly funded modernisation plan that was suggested by a government taskforce.

Adopting a similar hands-off approach, the Reagan administration also refused to bail out the steel industry, allowed two of America’s largest steel makers to declare bankruptcy and rejected calls for further protection from imports.

Unable to count on the government for direct financial support America’s largest steel producers were left with no choice but to resolve their economic woes and competitive problems on their own. Setting about saving the companies that they led, steel executives closed factories that they regarded as uncompetitive or too expensive to modernise, slashed their workforces, and demanded that their remaining workers take wage and benefits cuts.

The massive restructuring campaigns that America’s largest steel producers undertook in the 1980s proved successful, at least from the perspective of the business community. Companies that had spent most of the 1980s struggling survived the deep industrial depression of the late 1970s and early 1980s. Indeed, in 1987 the largest steel producers even reported profits and business analysts started to study the industry’s remarkable rebirth.

Yet, the steel industry’s rejuvenation was not a straightforward story of success. The reality of the US steel industry’s reinvention was that employment and production were slashed dramatically. In total, nearly 300,000 steelworkers lost their jobs between 1976 and 1986. In places like Youngstown, and Gary, Indiana, whole communities were left devastated by plant closures. As such, while the US steel industry did survive the crises of the 1970s and 1980s it did not do so unscathed.

Yet another example of the Imperial Elites in New England and the Mid-Atlantic devouring the Wealth and Productivity of Flyover Country.

[Totally Not OEP]

Reminder to always hate Neoliberalism:

Yet another example of the Imperial Elites in New England and the Mid-Atlantic devouring the Wealth and Productivity of Flyover Country.

They bailed out the banks during the Savings and Loan Crisis in '82 but they couldn't do the same for Steel.....

[Nea Byzantia]

Yet another example of the Imperial Elites in New England and the Mid-Atlantic devouring the Wealth and Productivity of Flyover Country.

They bailed out the banks during the Savings and Loan Crisis in '82 but they couldn't do the same for Steel.....

They wouldn't, not couldn't. They could've totally done it had they wanted to. But that just tells you where their bread is buttered.

[Totally Not OEP]

They bailed out the banks during the Savings and Loan Crisis in '82 but they couldn't do the same for Steel.....

They wouldn't, not couldn't. They could've totally done it had they wanted to.

Such is my point. Carter later did a bailout of his own in '79 for Chrysler.....with one of the wonderful stipulations being that Chrysler should cut wages for its workforce.

[Nea Byzantia]

They wouldn't, not couldn't. They could've totally done it had they wanted to.

Such is my point. Carter later did a bailout of his own in '79 for Chrysler.....with one of the wonderful stipulations being that Chrysler should cut wages for its workforce.

[Salus Maior]

If God ordained the pope, why is his kingdom so small? Sounds like a lame god.

Honestly, I believe that the Pope should have no state to himself.

Would’ve thought God’s voice on Earth would have foreseen that

The Pope isn't an oracle. While he holds an important position as head of the Church, he's still ultimately a human being.

Are you actually trying to achieve something with these weak-ass snipes, or are you just being petulant?

[Salus Maior]

Would’ve thought God’s voice on Earth would have foreseen that

You'd think, right? You'd also think God's Vicar wouldn't see the Papal States rolled back and taken over during the Risorgimento in the first place

Unless it was the Will of God that the Papal States end. Which I do.

Frankly I think it's a good thing that the Pope's role as a political leader diminish.

[Salus Maior]

I'm not sure that one case can be described as "rampant sex abuse," but it is true that we have dealt with these issues in the Church of England as well. The CoE hierarchy have been much more proactive in tackling the issue and making amends, however, than the Roman Catholic Church.

Part of the problem in the RCC is that it's a massive institution, trying to make any kind of change is going to take a lot of time.

But in the parishes I've been to here in America, they have really highlighted the issue and taken a lot of measures to ensure laypeople are safe.

[Novus America]

Yet another example of the Imperial Elites in New England and the Mid-Atlantic devouring the Wealth and Productivity of Flyover Country.

They bailed out the banks during the Savings and Loan Crisis in '82 but they couldn't do the same for Steel.....

Sure but had we not done the Tarriff reductions and military and infrastructure spending cuts of the 70s, there would have been no need for either bailout.

[Salus Maior]

You'd rather have commies ruling you instead of catholics?

JFK was a Catholic, and for the time he was President, he was doing a good job.

I'm not Vietnamese and ultimately the choice should've been up to them, but considering what happened, I'm not particularly keen to see a Catholic on the throne and I don't think most of them would've been either.

A Monarch ruling in the Vietnamese tradition as a Catholic is a bit different from a CIA supported bloodthirsty dictator.

[Novus America]

Reminder to always hate Neoliberalism:

Although both Reagan and Carter took steps to protect domestic steel producers from foreign competition, they ruled out much more interventionist and costly schemes that would have transformed the industry. The Carter administration, for example, refused to provide financial support to a group of community leaders in Youngstown, Ohio who were attempting to buy mills that America’s largest steel corporations had abandoned. Convinced that plant shutdowns were inevitable and that the nation’s largest steel corporations needed to tackle their own problems Carter also dismissed a US$10 billion publicly funded modernisation plan that was suggested by a government taskforce.

Adopting a similar hands-off approach, the Reagan administration also refused to bail out the steel industry, allowed two of America’s largest steel makers to declare bankruptcy and rejected calls for further protection from imports.

Unable to count on the government for direct financial support America’s largest steel producers were left with no choice but to resolve their economic woes and competitive problems on their own. Setting about saving the companies that they led, steel executives closed factories that they regarded as uncompetitive or too expensive to modernise, slashed their workforces, and demanded that their remaining workers take wage and benefits cuts.

The massive restructuring campaigns that America’s largest steel producers undertook in the 1980s proved successful, at least from the perspective of the business community. Companies that had spent most of the 1980s struggling survived the deep industrial depression of the late 1970s and early 1980s. Indeed, in 1987 the largest steel producers even reported profits and business analysts started to study the industry’s remarkable rebirth.

Yet, the steel industry’s rejuvenation was not a straightforward story of success. The reality of the US steel industry’s reinvention was that employment and production were slashed dramatically. In total, nearly 300,000 steelworkers lost their jobs between 1976 and 1986. In places like Youngstown, and Gary, Indiana, whole communities were left devastated by plant closures. As such, while the US steel industry did survive the crises of the 1970s and 1980s it did not do so unscathed.

Just go to any Rust Belt City if you want to hate Neoliberalism. It is not too late though what is 10 billion adjusted for inflation?
A massive system of publicly funded grants to rebuild and modernize are steel industry is still needed.

[Novus America]

Duly noted.

"B-but muh free trade..."

It becomes especially rich, given that in 1982 Reagan bailed out the banks during the Savings and Loan Crisis.

Reagan was clearly wrong for stopping the steel modernization fund, although in all fairness he was less neoliberal than Carter. His defense build up and restrictions on Japanese imports helped.

Really the full collapse of American Industry in general did not begin into until 2000 though it had stagnated by the early 70s.
I think you would love this article:
https://www.epi.org/publication/manufac ... e-culprit/

[Novus America]

With the exception of Vatican City of course

If God ordained the pope, why is his kingdom so small? Sounds like a lame god.

The whole “my Kingdom is not of this Earth thing”. I am no theologian and more deistic/agnostic anyways but the existence of a separate political power and religious leader exists in Christianity.
A lot is a misunderstanding of of the roll of the Pope, who has always been separate from the major worldly leader.
The Pope was never supposed to be Emperor.

The Papal States were only formed after Italy collapsed into anarchy, with the end of that anarchy they really lost their reason to exist.

Of course many Popes got greedy for more worldly power, but many I am sure would say they should not have done so into the first place.