Right-Wing Discussion Thread XVII: The Snark Enlightenment

[Bear Stearns]

Also, 19th Century American nativist were just cooler than 21st Century ones, even if the immigration they were fighting against seems rather trivial when compared to today's numbers.

I must say that I disagree, in part due to the fact that 19th century (or rather, very early 20th century) nativists considered my ancestors to be borderline sub-human (due to the fact that they originally came from Eastern Europe, the Baltics specifically). Now, I don’t wish to seem “triggered”, but by expressing seeming admiration for said views, one could argue that you’re indirectly calling me sub-human. And if I may of course, that’s not cool, mate. Not cool at all.

Nearly all American patriots before 1940 or so thought that way. Not much one can do about it, and I'm not going to let it stop me from loving my country.

[Jack Thomas Lang]

Nearly all American patriots before 1940 or so thought that way. Not much one can do about it, and I'm not going to let it stop me from loving my country.

It's the same here tbqh. Most Australian patriots were rabid nativists well up into the 50s. White Australia was popular near-unanimously, by conservatives and especially the labour movement. My love for this country isn't decreased by that in any way.

[Bear Stearns]

Nearly all American patriots before 1940 or so thought that way. Not much one can do about it, and I'm not going to let it stop me from loving my country.

It's the same here tbqh. Most Australian patriots were rabid nativists well up into the 50s. White Australia was popular near-unanimously, by conservatives and especially the labour movement. My love for this country isn't decreased by that in any way.

If we interpreted things through a modern liberal lense, then basically any Western country before 1960 or so was evil.

[Bear Stearns]

Nearly all American patriots before 1940 or so thought that way. Not much one can do about it, and I'm not going to let it stop me from loving my country.

It's the same here tbqh. Most Australian patriots were rabid nativists well up into the 50s. White Australia was popular near-unanimously, by conservatives and especially the labour movement. My love for this country isn't decreased by that in any way.

It's crazy how some things that were so taken for granted a generation ago are now taboo.

[The Supreme Magnificent High Swaglord]

I must say that I disagree, in part due to the fact that 19th century (or rather, very early 20th century) nativists considered my ancestors to be borderline sub-human (due to the fact that they originally came from Eastern Europe, the Baltics specifically). Now, I don’t wish to seem “triggered”, but by expressing seeming admiration for said views, one could argue that you’re indirectly calling me sub-human. And if I may of course, that’s not cool, mate. Not cool at all.

Nearly all American patriots before 1940 or so thought that way. Not much one can do about it, and I'm not going to let it stop me from loving my country.

No offense intended, but are you accusing me of being unpatriotic, now?

[Kowani]

It's the same here tbqh. Most Australian patriots were rabid nativists well up into the 50s. White Australia was popular near-unanimously, by conservatives and especially the labour movement. My love for this country isn't decreased by that in any way.

It's crazy how some things that were so taken for granted a generation ago are now taboo.

Gee, I wonder why...

[Bear Stearns]

Nearly all American patriots before 1940 or so thought that way. Not much one can do about it, and I'm not going to let it stop me from loving my country.

No offense intended, but are you accusing me of being unpatriotic, now?

No...?

I'm just saying I'm not going to stop holding patriots of yesteryear in high esteem because someone today is offended by them. By that logic, we can't endorse the Founding Fathers either, seeing as they were white supremacists and many owned slaves.

[Jack Thomas Lang]

It's crazy how some things that were so taken for granted a generation ago are now taboo.

Societal engineering that's what. You only need a generation of school children to turn things on their head.

[The Supreme Magnificent High Swaglord]

No offense intended, but are you accusing me of being unpatriotic, now?

No...?

I'm just saying I'm not going to stop holding patriots of yesteryear in high esteem because someone today is offended by them. By that logic, we can't endorse the Founding Fathers either, seeing as they were white supremacists and many owned slaves.

I admit, I was under the impression that you were not only calling me unpatriotic, but also implying me to be borderline sub-human. Please pardon my internal mischaracterization of you. I believe I might have misunderstood you. Hopefully, sufficient amends can be made.

[Bear Stearns]

No...?

I'm just saying I'm not going to stop holding patriots of yesteryear in high esteem because someone today is offended by them. By that logic, we can't endorse the Founding Fathers either, seeing as they were white supremacists and many owned slaves.

I admit, I was under the impression that you were not only calling me unpatriotic, but also implying me to be borderline sub-human. Please pardon my internal mischaracterization of you. I believe I might have misunderstood you. Hopefully, sufficient amends can be made.

It's an anonymous internet forum. If you actually did misunderstand me, who cares?

[The Liberated Territories]

fuck it

byzantium delenda est

Long live Venice, true inheritor of Aquileia, the real Roman Empire!

The Sacking of Constantinople was one of the most unfortunate events in history. As were the attacks on Byzantium.

W R O N G
R
O
N
G

The sacking of Constantinople is the logical conclusion to the rotting bloated corpse that was Byzantium. Well, actually the Ottomans were, but the point is that Byzantium was in steady decline since the fall of the Western empire, aka the only relevant part of the Roman Empire.

[United Muscovite Nations]

The Sacking of Constantinople was one of the most unfortunate events in history. As were the attacks on Byzantium.

W R O N G
R
O
N
G

The sacking of Constantinople is the logical conclusion to the rotting bloated corpse that was Byzantium. Well, actually the Ottomans were, but the point is that Byzantium was in steady decline since the fall of the Western empire, aka the only relevant part of the Roman Empire.

By the 5th century, the Eastern Empire was the only relevant part of the Empire.

[Jack Thomas Lang]

If we interpreted things through a modern liberal lense, then basically any Western country before 1960 or so was evil.

Imagine disavowing your nation's history unilaterally. How can anyone who does that call themselves a patriot? Assuming a modern liberal would, anyway.

[The Liberated Territories]

W R O N G
R
O
N
G

The sacking of Constantinople is the logical conclusion to the rotting bloated corpse that was Byzantium. Well, actually the Ottomans were, but the point is that Byzantium was in steady decline since the fall of the Western empire, aka the only relevant part of the Roman Empire.

By the 5th century, the Eastern Empire was the only relevant part of the Empire.

In any other century, it was irrelevant compared to Rome. You know, where the empire gets its name?

[The Supreme Magnificent High Swaglord]

It's crazy how some things that were so taken for granted a generation ago are now taboo.

Societal engineering that's what. You only need a generation of school children to turn things on their head.

I know, right? Think of how wonderfully collectivist and/or communitarian (take your pick) things can be made! We can reorganize our decadent contemporary society into something better!

Wait, is this “mind of metal and wheels” style thought, again? My bad if it is, of course.

I admit, I was under the impression that you were not only calling me unpatriotic, but also implying me to be borderline sub-human. Please pardon my internal mischaracterization of you. I believe I might have misunderstood you. Hopefully, sufficient amends can be made.

It's an anonymous internet forum. If you actually did misunderstand me, who cares?

I care. Civility is important, and when one does wrong it is (generally) their duty to amend it.

That makes at least some sense, right?

[United Muscovite Nations]

By the 5th century, the Eastern Empire was the only relevant part of the Empire.

In any other century, it was irrelevant compared to Rome. You know, where the empire gets its name?

All the Romans worth anything moved East because the West was where the poor lived.

[Napkizemlja]

By the 5th century, the Eastern Empire was the only relevant part of the Empire.

In any other century, it was irrelevant compared to Rome. You know, where the empire gets its name?

It was the most prosperous part of the empire for almost its entire existence.

[Kowani]

If we interpreted things through a modern liberal lense, then basically any Western country before 1960 or so was evil.

Imagine disavowing your nation's history unilaterally. How can anyone who does that call themselves a patriot? Assuming a modern liberal would, anyway.

Most liberals see the bad parts and good parts of their own history. They also tend to realize that the bad parts have been long neglected.

[FelrikTheDeleted]

The Sacking of Constantinople was one of the most unfortunate events in history. As were the attacks on Byzantium.

W R O N G
R
O
N
G

The sacking of Constantinople is the logical conclusion to the rotting bloated corpse that was Byzantium. Well, actually the Ottomans were, but the point is that Byzantium was in steady decline since the fall of the Western empire, aka the only relevant part of the Roman Empire.

The Sacking of Constantinople worked to hasten a dying man to his grave, when that dying man could have lived for longer. Besides the atrocities that occurred during the sacking as well as after, along with Ottoman dominance, could have been avoided altogether or at least slowed.

[Napkizemlja]

W R O N G
R
O
N
G

The sacking of Constantinople is the logical conclusion to the rotting bloated corpse that was Byzantium. Well, actually the Ottomans were, but the point is that Byzantium was in steady decline since the fall of the Western empire, aka the only relevant part of the Roman Empire.

The Sacking of Constantinople worked to hasten a dying man to his grave, when that dying man could have lived for longer. Besides the atrocities that occurred during the sacking as well as after, along with Ottoman dominance, could have been avoided altogether or at least slowed.

Chances are the Angelos dynasty wouldn't have lasted long and perhaps another renaissance of sorts could have occurred as it had previously. The Byzantines had a knack for coming back after being on the brink. Well, most of the time.

[Bear Stearns]

A Byzantine Empire that has successfully kept the Muslims at bay and isn't constantly fighting for survival is probably one that starts to feel the effects of the Protestant Reformation.

Unlikely that Reformists in the Byzantine Empire would call themselves Protestants or be similar to them, but there would probably still serious attempts at reform and schism.

[Benuty]

Also, 19th Century American nativist were just cooler than 21st Century ones, even if the immigration they were fighting against seems rather trivial when compared to today's numbers.

I must say that I disagree, in part due to the fact that 19th century (or rather, very early 20th century) nativists considered my ancestors to be borderline sub-human (due to the fact that they originally came from Eastern Europe, the Baltics specifically). Now, I don’t wish to seem “triggered”, but by expressing seeming admiration for said views, one could argue that you’re indirectly calling me sub-human. And if I may of course, that’s not cool, mate. Not cool at all.

I highly doubt the Anglo-Saxon ruling class gave any damns about anyone from the Baltics outside of any potential German immigrants. You weren't just viewed as subhuman, but you weren't thought of at all. People cared more for the surviving natives who abandoned their ways to fit the mold of the culture supressing them.

[Benuty]

If I am going, to be honest, if I were a nativist in the 19th century (presumably antebellum) I would be more upset at the presidential abuse of power in regards to the "five civilized tribes". By all extents, Jackson was booting off Christianized Americans from their lands who ironically integrated into the slaveholding society of their states.

To clarify this is me placing myself in the shoes of a nativist within my home state of South Carolina. I don't actually agree with the olden days of nativist to the point of viewing Catholics as robotic spies for the papacy.

[Cappuccina]

It's the same here tbqh. Most Australian patriots were rabid nativists well up into the 50s. White Australia was popular near-unanimously, by conservatives and especially the labour movement. My love for this country isn't decreased by that in any way.

If we interpreted things through a modern liberal lense, then basically any Western country before 1960 or so was evil.

They were though, that doesn't mean we can't see things in context.

[Bear Stearns]

I must say that I disagree, in part due to the fact that 19th century (or rather, very early 20th century) nativists considered my ancestors to be borderline sub-human (due to the fact that they originally came from Eastern Europe, the Baltics specifically). Now, I don’t wish to seem “triggered”, but by expressing seeming admiration for said views, one could argue that you’re indirectly calling me sub-human. And if I may of course, that’s not cool, mate. Not cool at all.

I highly doubt the Anglo-Saxon ruling class gave any damns about anyone from the Baltics outside of any potential German immigrants. You weren't just viewed as subhuman, but you weren't thought of at all. People cared more for the surviving natives who abandoned their ways to fit the mold of the culture supressing them.

This is something I read about quit ea lot, so perhaps I can provide some color. First, the Protestant-dominated nativist movement was very much a working class, populist phenomenon. The upper classes, mainly industrial magnates were in favor of immigration because they wanted cheap labor. However, there was a small, upper middle class component to it as well, largely coming out of New England, and these people made up the more intellectual/respectable wing of the nativist movement, and were more motivated by opposition to Catholicism (which they viewed as authoritarian) and the shitload of crime being committed by Irish immigrants (to be expected, given how poverty-stricken they were). These upper class nativists were not the wealthy Titans of Industry, but were often professionals such as doctors, lawyers, and preachers. Besides nativism, they were also very much involved in temperance, feminism, and abolitionism (an interesting ideological mix, if you ask me),

German immigrants were never really seen as much of a problem. If they were Protestant, then they weren't different than anyone else. If they were Catholic, they were seen as weird, but mostly alright.

As far as Balts go, Protestant Lutheran ones were often just considered to be Germans. As for Catholic Balts, most Americans had such infrequent interaction with them that they were not distinguished from the masses of Slavic Catholics such as Poles and Czechs. "Paupers from some despotic eastern shithole", if you will. Stereotypes of them and Eastern Europeans in general weren't that were sub-human, but more that they were stupid and had a lot of weird customs.

The real anger towards them didn't start kicking off until in the early 20th Century, when a shitload of communists and anarchists started coming out of Eastern Europe and causing trouble in the US, leading many Americans to associate them with terrorism.

The closing of the borders in 1924 and the assimilationist affects of the Great Depression and World War II ended most of those feelings (i.e. these people dropped their weird foreign customs that Americans didn't like), and by the time the Cold War started, these people were viewed as useful allies against the Soviets.

And by the 1970s, socio-economic differences between the Catholic white ethnics and the Protestant old stock Americans had mostly vanished.

A Protestant redneck from West Virginia has more in common with an Irish or Polish Catholic roughneck from Cleveland than he would a wealthy Episocopalian banker from New York.