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Right-Wing Discussion Thread XVII: The Snark Enlightenment

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Has Shinzo Abe's leadership been good for Japan?

Yes
37
31%
No
31
26%
Unsure
53
44%
 
Total votes : 121

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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:20 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:

Cool, a 6 year old study not related to what I was talking about at all.


Better than your unsourced claim.
Wages in the PRC are quite low compared to US wages. Which is one reason why so many want to come here in the first place.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. I support what is good for the country, which means I cannot support either party.

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United Muscovite Nations
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:26 pm

Novus America wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:Cool, a 6 year old study not related to what I was talking about at all.


Better than your unsourced claim.
Wages in the PRC are quite low compared to US wages. Which is one reason why so many want to come here in the first place.

It depends on your social class. Skilled intellectuals make comparable amounts of money.

Also, there's the thing that the PRC's wages grow substantially every single year while ours do not.
Last edited by United Muscovite Nations on Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:29 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Neither are US skilled STEM workers getting paid average either.
I do not have the exact data for the PRC but for Russia the US pays aerospace engineers more than ten times more.
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2014/11/ ... rce-a41832

Obviously we are more competitive, far more people there want to come here than our people want to go there.

There are millions applying for US green cards every year.

China is wealthier than Russia. I don't have data but I can tell you from personal experience that skilled intellectuals in China have a comparable lifestyle and income to American skilled intellectuals.


Well the Russian ones are fine to steal. Preferable in some cases as Russia is more advanced in some areas of technology.

And if you have no data, you have nothing.

While Chinese are paying ten of thousands of dollars to try to get US citizenship to their kids.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.market ... th-us/amp/
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. I support what is good for the country, which means I cannot support either party.

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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:31 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Better than your unsourced claim.
Wages in the PRC are quite low compared to US wages. Which is one reason why so many want to come here in the first place.

It depends on your social class. Skilled intellectuals make comparable amounts of money.

Also, there's the thing that the PRC's wages grow substantially every single year while ours do not.


You need to provide some data supporting your claim.
Why do so many want to come to the US?

And if you want anecdotes every Chinese college student I met wanted a green card.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. I support what is good for the country, which means I cannot support either party.

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United Muscovite Nations
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:34 pm

Novus America wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:It depends on your social class. Skilled intellectuals make comparable amounts of money.

Also, there's the thing that the PRC's wages grow substantially every single year while ours do not.


You need to provide some data supporting your claim.
Why do so many want to come to the US?

And if you want anecdotes every Chinese college student I met wanted a green card.

Most of the skilled intellectuals go back, but most of the people who come here and stay do so because they fear their children won't make it in the rigid Chinese system, and thus won't be as successful, not because of lack of money. I can't give data with a link, but I can tell you from experience with Chinese STEM grad students and Chinese professors and engineers that I've met that they have a pretty high lifestyle.
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:39 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Novus America wrote:
You need to provide some data supporting your claim.
Why do so many want to come to the US?

And if you want anecdotes every Chinese college student I met wanted a green card.

Most of the skilled intellectuals go back, but most of the people who come here and stay do so because they fear their children won't make it in the rigid Chinese system, and thus won't be as successful, not because of lack of money. I can't give data with a link, but I can tell you from experience with Chinese STEM grad students and Chinese professors and engineers that I've met that they have a pretty high lifestyle.


The skilled intellectuals usually go back only because they have no choice. We do no give many students green cards. Which is stupid. We should keep the best ones.

Pretty high is not necessarily as high. And regardless of why they want to come here, they still want to come here. True it is not just wages driving it.

Which is fine. The rich investors visa has a massive backlog of Chinese applicants. So true it is not just wages that make us more competitive.

And certainly Russia is ripe for picking given its atrocious wages for skilled aerospace engineers.
Last edited by Novus America on Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. I support what is good for the country, which means I cannot support either party.

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Napkizemlja
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Postby Napkizemlja » Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:44 pm

Novus America wrote:
Napkizemlja wrote:You do realize that the average private sector worker is not the same as their intellectual elite, right?


Neither are US skilled STEM workers getting paid average either.
I do not have the exact data for the PRC but for Russia the US pays aerospace engineers more than ten times more.
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2014/11/ ... rce-a41832

Obviously we are more competitive, far more people there want to come here than our people want to go there.

There are millions applying for US green cards every year.
Millions primarily from places that are not Russia.
Don't cry because it's coming to an end, smile because it happened.

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United Muscovite Nations
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:45 pm

Novus America wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:Most of the skilled intellectuals go back, but most of the people who come here and stay do so because they fear their children won't make it in the rigid Chinese system, and thus won't be as successful, not because of lack of money. I can't give data with a link, but I can tell you from experience with Chinese STEM grad students and Chinese professors and engineers that I've met that they have a pretty high lifestyle.


The skilled intellectuals usually go back only because they have no choice. We do no give many students green cards. Which is stupid. We should keep the best ones.

Pretty high is not necessarily as high. And regardless of why they want to come here, they still want to come here. True it is not just wages driving it.

Which is fine. The rich investors visa has a massive backlog of Chinese applicants. So true it is not just wages that make us more competitive.

And certainly Russia is ripe for picking given its atrocious wages for skilled aerospace engineers.

It depends on how respected you are in the field but people in my family have gotten job offers from China that pay better than what they have here.
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:48 pm

Napkizemlja wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Neither are US skilled STEM workers getting paid average either.
I do not have the exact data for the PRC but for Russia the US pays aerospace engineers more than ten times more.
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2014/11/ ... rce-a41832

Obviously we are more competitive, far more people there want to come here than our people want to go there.

There are millions applying for US green cards every year.
Millions primarily from places that are not Russia.


Russia has a fairly small population, especially compared to India and the PRC.

But
https://news.gallup.com/poll/248249/rec ... ussia.aspx

Twenty percent of Russians want out, and the US is the second most popular place they want to go.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. I support what is good for the country, which means I cannot support either party.

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Napkizemlja
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Postby Napkizemlja » Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:49 pm

Also, China has attracted a lot of scientists and engineers. In circles I used to run in, it was commonly accepted that if you had a looser ethics code in things like genetic research, AI development, and IT China was the place to go. You'd be paid really well by Western standards and living in a generally cheaper place.
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:50 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Novus America wrote:
The skilled intellectuals usually go back only because they have no choice. We do no give many students green cards. Which is stupid. We should keep the best ones.

Pretty high is not necessarily as high. And regardless of why they want to come here, they still want to come here. True it is not just wages driving it.

Which is fine. The rich investors visa has a massive backlog of Chinese applicants. So true it is not just wages that make us more competitive.

And certainly Russia is ripe for picking given its atrocious wages for skilled aerospace engineers.

It depends on how respected you are in the field but people in my family have gotten job offers from China that pay better than what they have here.


Some jobs might, but also they usually pay foreigners much better than locals.

But sure wages alone are not the only thing causing the emigration.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. I support what is good for the country, which means I cannot support either party.

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Napkizemlja
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Postby Napkizemlja » Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:50 pm

Novus America wrote:
Napkizemlja wrote:Millions primarily from places that are not Russia.


Russia has a fairly small population, especially compared to India and the PRC.

But
https://news.gallup.com/poll/248249/rec ... ussia.aspx

Twenty percent of Russians want out, and the US is the second most popular place they want to go.

And how many of those are part of Russia's military R&D elite?
Don't cry because it's coming to an end, smile because it happened.

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Napkizemlja
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Postby Napkizemlja » Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:51 pm

Novus America wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:It depends on how respected you are in the field but people in my family have gotten job offers from China that pay better than what they have here.


Some jobs might, but also they usually pay foreigners much better than locals.

But sure wages alone are not the only thing causing the emigration.
Odd that now you drop wages being the driving factor.
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:52 pm

Napkizemlja wrote:Also, China has attracted a lot of scientists and engineers. In circles I used to run in, it was commonly accepted that if you had a looser ethics code in things like genetic research, AI development, and IT China was the place to go. You'd be paid really well by Western standards and living in a generally cheaper place.


They have not attracted as many as they have lost.

And they pay foreigners better than locals. And some living costs are lower, but not housing.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. I support what is good for the country, which means I cannot support either party.

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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:53 pm

Napkizemlja wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Some jobs might, but also they usually pay foreigners much better than locals.

But sure wages alone are not the only thing causing the emigration.
Odd that now you drop wages being the driving factor.


It is a factor, but not the only one sure.
Regardless we are still more competitive in pulling in immigrants.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. I support what is good for the country, which means I cannot support either party.

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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:54 pm

Napkizemlja wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Russia has a fairly small population, especially compared to India and the PRC.

But
https://news.gallup.com/poll/248249/rec ... ussia.aspx

Twenty percent of Russians want out, and the US is the second most popular place they want to go.

And how many of those are part of Russia's military R&D elite?


It does not say, but their wages for aerospace engineers are horrible and a lot of those wanting to leave are highly educated.

And we do not necessarily need the most elite, just those with usable knowledge and skills.
Last edited by Novus America on Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. I support what is good for the country, which means I cannot support either party.

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The Xenopolis Confederation
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Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:44 pm

Napkizemlja wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Severe crackdowns on a substance does not magically make it go away.
Nobody seriously thinks that it does, it's meant to make it harder for it to get on the street and more costly for the criminals who sell it. Crackdowns also don't really make OCG's more powerful, its the lack of enforcement that does that. There is a reason the Mafia hasn't recaptured its hold on society that it once held and that's because the Feds finally decided to seriously tackle organized crime in the 70's and 80's.
That ain't a difficult thing to understand, as we tried it before with alcohol.
Prohibition wasn't even enforced consistently or intensely, that's what allowed a lot of criminal organizations to operate relatively easily. Consistent and intense crackdowns on criminal organizations actually do quite a bit to control them to more acceptable levels.

The problem with the "Prohibitions on x aren't ineffective inherently, they're only ineffective because they're not rigorously enforced. If we rigorously enforced it, it would be effective," argument is that, often rigorously enforcing it creates its own set of ethical issues which I think would outweigh the benefits of creating an effective deterrent.
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Dumb Ideologies
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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:13 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Napkizemlja wrote:Nobody seriously thinks that it does, it's meant to make it harder for it to get on the street and more costly for the criminals who sell it. Crackdowns also don't really make OCG's more powerful, its the lack of enforcement that does that. There is a reason the Mafia hasn't recaptured its hold on society that it once held and that's because the Feds finally decided to seriously tackle organized crime in the 70's and 80's. Prohibition wasn't even enforced consistently or intensely, that's what allowed a lot of criminal organizations to operate relatively easily. Consistent and intense crackdowns on criminal organizations actually do quite a bit to control them to more acceptable levels.

The problem with the "Prohibitions on x aren't ineffective inherently, they're only ineffective because they're not rigorously enforced. If we rigorously enforced it, it would be effective," argument is that, often rigorously enforcing it creates its own set of ethical issues which I think would outweigh the benefits of creating an effective deterrent.


sounds like its time to prohibit your ethics :^)
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Napkizemlja
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Postby Napkizemlja » Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:16 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Napkizemlja wrote:Nobody seriously thinks that it does, it's meant to make it harder for it to get on the street and more costly for the criminals who sell it. Crackdowns also don't really make OCG's more powerful, its the lack of enforcement that does that. There is a reason the Mafia hasn't recaptured its hold on society that it once held and that's because the Feds finally decided to seriously tackle organized crime in the 70's and 80's. Prohibition wasn't even enforced consistently or intensely, that's what allowed a lot of criminal organizations to operate relatively easily. Consistent and intense crackdowns on criminal organizations actually do quite a bit to control them to more acceptable levels.

The problem with the "Prohibitions on x aren't ineffective inherently, they're only ineffective because they're not rigorously enforced. If we rigorously enforced it, it would be effective," argument is that, often rigorously enforcing it creates its own set of ethical issues which I think would outweigh the benefits of creating an effective deterrent.

Perhaps your ethics, not necessarily mine.
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The Xenopolis Confederation
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Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:18 pm

Dumb Ideologies wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:The problem with the "Prohibitions on x aren't ineffective inherently, they're only ineffective because they're not rigorously enforced. If we rigorously enforced it, it would be effective," argument is that, often rigorously enforcing it creates its own set of ethical issues which I think would outweigh the benefits of creating an effective deterrent.


sounds like its time to prohibit your ethics :^)

My ethics say you can't prohibit my ethics tho. 8)
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Nea Byzantia
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Postby Nea Byzantia » Tue Sep 24, 2019 5:28 am

Napkizemlja wrote:
Novus America wrote:
They already do it, it changes nothing. Where we can beat them is wages.
Given they chance their defense workers would gladly come here, and tell us everything we need to know.

We have the advantage in terms of higher wages. We should use it.

If that were true then their defense workers would already be sending messages to American embassies and consulates en mass already if they were so giddy to move to America. China is an even worse country to try it over, considering that it's very unlikely that the US will be able to get family members over in time and the Chinese have used threats against family to coerce overseas Chinese residents to do their bidding.

Besides, there's also the possibility that some of these skilled labourers are actually patriotic...Sorry, America, its not always just as simple as buying somebody. Some people don't have a price.
Last edited by Nea Byzantia on Tue Sep 24, 2019 5:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Ghost in the Shell » Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:10 am

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Napkizemlja wrote:Wat.

Severe crackdowns on a substance does not magically make it go away. That ain't a difficult thing to understand, as we tried it before with alcohol.

Actually, Prohibition was a success
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The Xenopolis Confederation
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Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:17 am

Ghost in the Shell wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Severe crackdowns on a substance does not magically make it go away. That ain't a difficult thing to understand, as we tried it before with alcohol.

Actually, Prohibition was a success

If prohibition was a success, then that makes it even worse.
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Progressive Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
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Economic: 0.5
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Antityranicals
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Postby Antityranicals » Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:22 am

Ghost in the Shell wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Severe crackdowns on a substance does not magically make it go away. That ain't a difficult thing to understand, as we tried it before with alcohol.

Actually, Prohibition was a success

Why'd they repeal it, then? I don't like the idea of alcohol, and personally won't drink the stuff, but what gives the government the right to ban it?
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Antityranicals
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Postby Antityranicals » Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:30 am

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Dumb Ideologies wrote:
sounds like its time to prohibit your ethics :^)

My ethics say you can't prohibit my ethics tho. 8)

There are no "my ethics" and "your ethics", only "ethics", and saying otherwise is dangerous and debasing. What if "my ethics" are that I should be allowed to murder people without punishment? Should I be allowed to do this so that you respect "my ethics"? No, because "my ethics" would be wrong! There is one set of objective ethics, and it is our duty to find out what those are, but not to simply make up our own.
Compass: Right: 9.94, Libertarian: -5.84
Catholic Libertarian. Gov't has no authority, all authority is from God. God grants us free will, gov't should not infringe upon it. Legislating morality is wrong. Only exception is protecting rights to life, liberty, and property. Abortion is killing an infant, one of the few things gov't should prevent. Pro-Trump, he's been an effective weapon against real enemies of freedom: The Left, but I wish he were more for free trade, more against deficits. Unrestrained capitalism is a great thing; it does wonders for standards of living of everyone, especially the poor.
HS student in the USA. Male. XC runner, 17:30 5k, 4:59 mile. I enjoy singing, sushi, eating large quantities of food, and eating large quantities of sushi.

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