Right-Wing Discussion Thread XVII: The Snark Enlightenment

[United Muscovite Nations]

The 1960''s is not the distant past.

But it is still the past. And if scandals in the 60s discredits an institution forever, how many would we have left?

My point is, the Catholic Church is incredibly hypocritical and has been undermining public safety and political autonomy for centuries, well into the modern day. It's completely understandable why OT feels justified in calling out the Catholic Church, or even why say the Chinese government doesn't want to let it in specifically. It's an organization that has spent most of its history doing these bad things.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Yes to the first two. The last was covered up by the hierarchy.

Also, sometimes from orphanages, sometimes from living parents, depending on the time period.

Well, I figured the church probably ran the last ghettos. I think everyone's good with that being gone.

And ok, so "kidnapping" children from orphanages to give them to good Catholic families doesn't strike me as being evil (maybe Chaotic Good, as it were)? They're orphans, they need families. Living families obviously isn't good.

Ah, figures.

They also kidnapped them from living families mostly. And they were kidnapping them from orphanages that were run by other religious groups (e.g. Jewish children were taken by force from Jewish orphanages and raised Catholic).

[Novus America]

Oh, and I am aware Henry VIII was an educated man. Not stupid either if his mental stability was at times questionable.

But Stalin also was very knowledgeable of theology.

Understanding the theological implications of an action and actually caring are different things.

[Nea Byzantia]

Well, I figured the church probably ran the last ghettos. I think everyone's good with that being gone.

And ok, so "kidnapping" children from orphanages to give them to good Catholic families doesn't strike me as being evil (maybe Chaotic Good, as it were)? They're orphans, they need families. Living families obviously isn't good.

Ah, figures.

They also kidnapped them from living families mostly. And they were kidnapping them from orphanages that were run by other religious groups (e.g. Jewish children were taken by force from Jewish orphanages and raised Catholic).

Wow. I didn't even know they stooped that low. Did they do that with Orthodox children?

[Nea Byzantia]

Oh, and I am aware Henry VIII was an educated man. Not stupid either if his mental stability was at times questionable.

But Stalin also was very knowledgeable of theology.

Understanding the theological implications of an action and actually caring are different things.

Stalin was actually a failed Orthodox Seminarian...

[Old Tyrannia]

Well, I figured the church probably ran the last ghettos. I think everyone's good with that being gone.

And ok, so "kidnapping" children from orphanages to give them to good Catholic families doesn't strike me as being evil (maybe Chaotic Good, as it were)? They're orphans, they need families. Living families obviously isn't good.

Ah, figures.

They also kidnapped them from living families mostly. And they were kidnapping them from orphanages that were run by other religious groups (e.g. Jewish children were taken by force from Jewish orphanages and raised Catholic).

I was familiar with the Mortara case, but I'm not sure I'd heard that the same thing (or something similar) had happened on an organised scale. That's quite disturbing.

[United Muscovite Nations]

And of course in Spain, priests would take children from dissidents of the Franco regime and give them to loyal subjects, telling the parents that their child had died.

[Napkizemlja]

What is it we're talking about?

The Catholic Church ran the last ghettoes in Western Europe, The pope and bishops kidnapped children in orphanages to give to good Catholic (one of the kidnappers was even the Pope himself), and Catholic orphanages in Ireland outright killed children and their mothers and hid the bodies well into the 1960's.

Something not foreign to the Protestants either.

[Nea Byzantia]

The Catholic Church ran the last ghettoes in Western Europe, The pope and bishops kidnapped children in orphanages to give to good Catholic (one of the kidnappers was even the Pope himself), and Catholic orphanages in Ireland outright killed children and their mothers and hid the bodies well into the 1960's.

Something not foreign to the Protestants either.

I thought those were run by the Jesuits...

[Napkizemlja]

But it is still the past. And if scandals in the 60s discredits an institution forever, how many would we have left?

My point is, the Catholic Church is incredibly hypocritical and has been undermining public safety and political autonomy for centuries, well into the modern day. It's completely understandable why OT feels justified in calling out the Catholic Church, or even why say the Chinese government doesn't want to let it in specifically. It's an organization that has spent most of its history doing these bad things.

The Chinese government doesn't want to let them in because of its independence. No Christian should ever try to excuse how the Chinese government treats our fellow Christians, especially given what they are doing to their own people.

[Napkizemlja]

Something not foreign to the Protestants either.

I thought those were run by the Jesuits...

The schools were run by various churches, not just the Catholic Church.

[Old Tyrannia]

Oh, and I am aware Henry VIII was an educated man. Not stupid either if his mental stability was at times questionable.

But Stalin also was very knowledgeable of theology.

Understanding the theological implications of an action and actually caring are different things.

From everything I've read about Henry VIII, he seems to have been a genuinely devout man, though he was clearly good at rationalising his self-interest as being in accordance with "God's will." I don't think there's any reason to doubt his faith other than because it's convenient to a certain narrative.

Oh, and I am aware Henry VIII was an educated man. Not stupid either if his mental stability was at times questionable.

But Stalin also was very knowledgeable of theology.

Understanding the theological implications of an action and actually caring are different things.

Stalin was actually a failed Orthodox Seminarian...

Failed in the sense that he dropped out, never having been genuinely religious; academically he always performed well if I recall correctly.

Something not foreign to the Protestants either.

I thought those were run by the Jesuits...

Unfortunately both the Catholic and various Protestant churches in Canada at the time were involved in efforts to deprive First Nations children of their cultural heritage.

[Nakena]

Be honest, you're mostly hostile to me because I keep pointing out that you are factually wrong about things and you don't like being corrected.

See, there's that smugness again.

OT nomimated for Top ten anime smug faces.

Sure, I'm antagonistic (admittedly, I can and should be nicer), but I'm not hostile - at least not intentionally. My temper just gets the better of me. If I have been overly hostile, I apologize.

Wot. I assumed you'd be Orthodox Christian or something like that.

[Novus America]

But it is still the past. And if scandals in the 60s discredits an institution forever, how many would we have left?

My point is, the Catholic Church is incredibly hypocritical and has been undermining public safety and political autonomy for centuries, well into the modern day. It's completely understandable why OT feels justified in calling out the Catholic Church, or even why say the Chinese government doesn't want to let it in specifically. It's an organization that has spent most of its history doing these bad things.

And? Now you are a state atheist?
These are the same arguments used to crush all religions.

Is the Catholic Church a flawed and hypocritical institution? Absolutely.
But again if that was the grounds for wanting to destroy an institution what institutions would we have left?

[United Muscovite Nations]

My point is, the Catholic Church is incredibly hypocritical and has been undermining public safety and political autonomy for centuries, well into the modern day. It's completely understandable why OT feels justified in calling out the Catholic Church, or even why say the Chinese government doesn't want to let it in specifically. It's an organization that has spent most of its history doing these bad things.

The Chinese government doesn't want to let them in because of its independence. No Christian should ever try to excuse how the Chinese government treats our fellow Christians, especially given what they are doing to their own people.

That's fair, I apologize, but some other governments historically were justified in their skepticism of the Catholic Church.

[Nea Byzantia]

Oh, and I am aware Henry VIII was an educated man. Not stupid either if his mental stability was at times questionable.

But Stalin also was very knowledgeable of theology.

Understanding the theological implications of an action and actually caring are different things.

From everything I've read about Henry VIII, he seems to have been a genuinely devout man, though he was clearly good at rationalising his self-interest as being in accordance with "God's will." I don't think there's any reason to doubt his faith other than because it's convenient to a certain narrative.

Stalin was actually a failed Orthodox Seminarian...

Failed in the sense that he dropped out, never having been genuinely religious; academically he always performed well if I recall correctly.

That's right.

[Uiiop]

My point is, the Catholic Church is incredibly hypocritical and has been undermining public safety and political autonomy for centuries, well into the modern day. It's completely understandable why OT feels justified in calling out the Catholic Church, or even why say the Chinese government doesn't want to let it in specifically. It's an organization that has spent most of its history doing these bad things.

And? Now you are a state atheist?
These are the same arguments used to crush all religions.

Is the Catholic Church a flawed and hypocritical institution? Absolutely.
But again if that was the grounds for wanting to destroy an institution what institutions would we have left?

Look into his sig and you should know the answer to that last question.

[Novus America]

And of course in Spain, priests would take children from dissidents of the Franco regime and give them to loyal subjects, telling the parents that their child had died.

Again just reading off a list of Catholic scandals (and indeed there were many) does nothing to demonstrate the Catholic Church is uniquely worthy of hostility.

[Hanafuridake]

or the "Mandate of Heaven",

[Old Tyrannia]

The Chinese government doesn't want to let them in because of its independence. No Christian should ever try to excuse how the Chinese government treats our fellow Christians, especially given what they are doing to their own people.

That's fair, I apologize, but some other governments historically were justified in their skepticism of the Catholic Church.

I hate to bring it up again, but...

Regnans in Excelsis. I don't believe the papacy has ever actually revoked that bull, let alone apologised for it.

[Salus Maior]

Unfortunately both the Catholic and various Protestant churches in Canada at the time were involved in efforts to deprive First Nations children of their cultural heritage.

Americans did the same.

[Novus America]

The Chinese government doesn't want to let them in because of its independence. No Christian should ever try to excuse how the Chinese government treats our fellow Christians, especially given what they are doing to their own people.

That's fair, I apologize, but some other governments historically were justified in their skepticism of the Catholic Church.

Oh, we should be skeptical of the Catholic Church. But we should be skeptical of all churches, and not just churches. We should be skeptical of all organizations made up of humans.

That does not mean we should seek to oppress and destroy all human organizations.

[United Muscovite Nations]

That's fair, I apologize, but some other governments historically were justified in their skepticism of the Catholic Church.

Oh, we should be skeptical of the Catholic Church. But we should be skeptical of all churches, and not just churches. We should be skeptical of all organizations made up of humans.

That does not mean we should seek to oppress and destroy all human organizations.

I've not said we should.

[Novus America]

From everything I've read about Henry VIII, he seems to have been a genuinely devout man, though he was clearly good at rationalising his self-interest as being in accordance with "God's will." I don't think there's any reason to doubt his faith other than because it's convenient to a certain narrative.

Failed in the sense that he dropped out, never having been genuinely religious; academically he always performed well if I recall correctly.

That's right.

Maybe Henry VIII really thought what he was doing was theologically sound but at best he was rationalizing. Rationalizing our actions into deluding ourselves we what we are doing out of personal greed is for the greater good its common, but not a good thing.

[Novus America]

Oh, we should be skeptical of the Catholic Church. But we should be skeptical of all churches, and not just churches. We should be skeptical of all organizations made up of humans.

That does not mean we should seek to oppress and destroy all human organizations.

I've not said we should.

You shilled for PRC oppression.

Why do not you extend the same hostility to other human institutions?
When you only single out one, it becomes an issue.