Right-Wing Discussion Thread XVII: The Snark Enlightenment

[United Muscovite Nations]

Am I late to the flag party?

[Salus Maior]

No Church has given up whatever power it had willingly.

The Church of England did, the Lutheran churches did, parts of the Orthodox Church did. The Catholic Church was committing horrible abuses right up until the present. The last 200 years of Catholic Church history have been ridden with scandal and embarrassment that has nearly destroyed the Church, all of it because the Church has desperately tried to cling to medieval power.

Yes, and look how well that's gone for them.

[United Muscovite Nations]

The Church of England did, the Lutheran churches did, parts of the Orthodox Church did. The Catholic Church was committing horrible abuses right up until the present. The last 200 years of Catholic Church history have been ridden with scandal and embarrassment that has nearly destroyed the Church, all of it because the Church has desperately tried to cling to medieval power.

Yes, and look how well that's gone for them.

Would it have gone better for the Catholic Church to have continued running ghettoes and killing and kidnapping children?

[Nea Byzantia]

POST DELETED

[Novus America]

I think it's reasonable to be fairly hostile to the Catholic Church. For most of its history it was a political leviathan that oppressed people of other faiths and tried to quash dissent, and it gave up none of that power willingly.

And yet you jump to the defense of Russia when people criticize on similar grounds.
Sure the Catholic Church has a dark history. But if we are hostile towards every institution just because it has a dark history, we would be hostile to all institutions.

The Catholic Church is not unique in that regard. It is much different now than it was in the 1600s.
I would be hostile to the 1600s Catholic Church AND hostile to the 1600s Protestants. Both were vile as institutions (not all members as individuals people of course, even if many were). But times change.

You and OT sometimes seem to live in the past, not the present.

[Napkizemlja]

I think it's reasonable to be fairly hostile to the Catholic Church. For most of its history it was a political leviathan that oppressed people of other faiths and tried to quash dissent, and it gave up none of that power willingly.

Most churches have done so and in the United Kingdom there is still a ban on Roman Catholics from inheriting the throne and up until recently it would disinherit those who married Roman Catholics - laws that up until recently were supported by the Church of England. Our own Orthodox brothers have likewise oppressed many.

[Salus Maior]

Yes, and look how well that's gone for them.

Would it have gone better for the Catholic Church to have continued running ghettoes and killing and kidnapping children?

What is it we're talking about?

[Old Tyrannia]

Be honest, you're mostly hostile to me because I keep pointing out that you are factually wrong about things and you don't like being corrected.

See, there's that smugness again.

Sure, I'm antagonistic (admittedly, I can and should be nicer), but I'm not hostile - at least not intentionally. My temper just gets the better of me. If I have been overly hostile, I apologize.

I'm guilty of that too, so of course I forgive you, and I ask that you forgive me in turn. Even if the chances are we'll be back to exchanging snide remarks in a few days.

I agree, OT seems to go beyond ribbing into genuine hostility at times.

We've all done that.

True. I apologise for making a personal attack on you, that was uncalled for no matter how strongly I feel about the matter.

[Nea Byzantia]

See, there's that smugness again.

Sure, I'm antagonistic (admittedly, I can and should be nicer), but I'm not hostile - at least not intentionally. My temper just gets the better of me. If I have been overly hostile, I apologize.

I'm guilty of that too, so of course I forgive you, and I ask that you forgive me in turn. Even if the chances are we'll be back to exchanging snide remarks in a few days.

I forgive you too; and I relish our rivalry. Makes things interesting and entertaining.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Would it have gone better for the Catholic Church to have continued running ghettoes and killing and kidnapping children?

What is it we're talking about?

The Catholic Church ran the last ghettoes in Western Europe, The pope and bishops kidnapped children in orphanages to give to good Catholic (one of the kidnappers was even the Pope himself), and Catholic orphanages in Ireland outright killed children and their mothers and hid the bodies well into the 1960's.

[United Muscovite Nations]

I think it's reasonable to be fairly hostile to the Catholic Church. For most of its history it was a political leviathan that oppressed people of other faiths and tried to quash dissent, and it gave up none of that power willingly.

Most churches have done so and in the United Kingdom there is still a ban on Roman Catholics from inheriting the throne and up until recently it would disinherit those who married Roman Catholics - laws that up until recently were supported by the Church of England. Our own Orthodox brothers have likewise oppressed many.

Yes, but most of the time the others stopped without having to be arrested by foreign armies.

[Novus America]

Oh well nobody claimed the Popes of that era were always the most upstanding of Christians...
Many were power hungry and corrupt.

Although one can make an argument that given the anarchy in Italy at the time, establishing state for defensive purposes was a matter of practical necessity regardless of theological merits.

Although I am not so naive to believe all Popes had purely benign intentions.

By the 1800's, however, the Papal States were a terrible relic that abused human rights and tried to dominate other states through its moral authority. It was a good thing that the Napoleons dispossessed the Popes of their land.

Well sure by the 1800s they were an anachronism.
And disappeared as such. Has anyone called for their return?

[Nea Byzantia]

What is it we're talking about?

The Catholic Church ran the last ghettoes in Western Europe, The pope and bishops kidnapped children in orphanages to give to good Catholic (one of the kidnappers was even the Pope himself), and Catholic orphanages in Ireland outright killed children and their mothers and hid the bodies well into the 1960's.

Dark.

[Salus Maior]

True. I apologise for making a personal attack on you, that was uncalled for no matter how strongly I feel about the matter.

You're forgiven. And I want to apologize for the same.

Like I said, we all get heated about things we're passionate about.

[United Muscovite Nations]

I think it's reasonable to be fairly hostile to the Catholic Church. For most of its history it was a political leviathan that oppressed people of other faiths and tried to quash dissent, and it gave up none of that power willingly.

And yet you jump to the defense of Russia when people criticize on similar grounds.
Sure the Catholic Church has a dark history. But if we are hostile towards every institution just because it has a dark history, we would be hostile to all institutions.

The Catholic Church is not unique in that regard. It is much different now than it was in the 1600s.
I would be hostile to the 1600s Catholic Church AND hostile to the 1600s Protestants. Both were vile as institutions (not all members as individuals people of course, even if many were). But times change.

You and OT sometimes seem to live in the past, not the present.

The 1960''s is not the distant past.

[Salus Maior]

What is it we're talking about?

The Catholic Church ran the last ghettoes in Western Europe, The pope and bishops kidnapped children in orphanages to give to good Catholic (one of the kidnappers was even the Pope himself), and Catholic orphanages in Ireland outright killed children and their mothers and hid the bodies well into the 1960's.

Jewish ghettos I'm guessing you mean? And the Pope and bishops kidnapped children, from orphanages, to give them to good Catholic families? Is that a bad thing?

And the Irish orphanage thing I understand wasn't known by the higher ups.

[Nea Byzantia]

The Catholic Church ran the last ghettoes in Western Europe, The pope and bishops kidnapped children in orphanages to give to good Catholic (one of the kidnappers was even the Pope himself), and Catholic orphanages in Ireland outright killed children and their mothers and hid the bodies well into the 1960's.

And the Irish orphanage thing I understand wasn't known by the higher ups.

How do you know they didn't know?

[United Muscovite Nations]

The Catholic Church ran the last ghettoes in Western Europe, The pope and bishops kidnapped children in orphanages to give to good Catholic (one of the kidnappers was even the Pope himself), and Catholic orphanages in Ireland outright killed children and their mothers and hid the bodies well into the 1960's.

Jewish ghettos I'm guessing you mean? And the Pope and bishops kidnapped children, from orphanages, to give them to good Catholic families?

And the Irish orphanage thing I understand wasn't known by the higher ups.

Yes to the first two. The last was covered up by the hierarchy.

Also, sometimes from orphanages, sometimes from living parents, depending on the time period.

[Novus America]

No Church has given up whatever power it had willingly.

The Church of England did, the Lutheran churches did, parts of the Orthodox Church did. The Catholic Church was committing horrible abuses right up until the present. The last 200 years of Catholic Church history have been ridden with scandal and embarrassment that has nearly destroyed the Church, all of it because the Church has desperately tried to cling to medieval power.

No, they just became too weak to hold on to their power.
The Catholic Church remained stringer for longer yes. But the Church if England abs Lutheran Churches did not fall into decline and increasing irrelevance our of some moral choice.

[Napkizemlja]

Most churches have done so and in the United Kingdom there is still a ban on Roman Catholics from inheriting the throne and up until recently it would disinherit those who married Roman Catholics - laws that up until recently were supported by the Church of England. Our own Orthodox brothers have likewise oppressed many.

Yes, but most of the time the others stopped without having to be arrested by foreign armies.

In the case of Protestantism, it's often because the head of state was also the head of the church. For example, the secularization of Germany was really only allowed as a result of the German revolution that stripped away the aristocracy with the Weimar Constitution. In England, growing popular resentment among Catholics and even riots, fanned by a general growing unrest among the lower classes, are what eventually loosened some of the most restrictive laws against them. The power of the various Orthodox Churches lost a lot of their power through foreign rule or a result of communist rule. It may not have been foreign armies, but the threat of violence or actual violence and oppression was usually a factor in their loss of power.

[Novus America]

And yet you jump to the defense of Russia when people criticize on similar grounds.
Sure the Catholic Church has a dark history. But if we are hostile towards every institution just because it has a dark history, we would be hostile to all institutions.

The Catholic Church is not unique in that regard. It is much different now than it was in the 1600s.
I would be hostile to the 1600s Catholic Church AND hostile to the 1600s Protestants. Both were vile as institutions (not all members as individuals people of course, even if many were). But times change.

You and OT sometimes seem to live in the past, not the present.

The 1960''s is not the distant past.

But it is still the past. And if scandals in the 60s discredits an institution forever, how many would we have left?

[Nazariles]

Me visiting the Café RWDT

[United Muscovite Nations]

Yes, but most of the time the others stopped without having to be arrested by foreign armies.

In the case of Protestantism, it's often because the head of state was also the head of the church. For example, the secularization of Germany was really only allowed as a result of the German revolution that stripped away the aristocracy with the Weimar Constitution. In England, growing popular resentment among Catholics and even riots, fanned by a general growing unrest among the lower classes, are what eventually loosened some of the most restrictive laws against them. The power of the various Orthodox Churches lost a lot of their power through foreign rule or a result of communist rule. It may not have been foreign armies, but the threat of violence or actual violence and oppression was usually a factor in their loss of power.

Fair.

[Salus Maior]

Jewish ghettos I'm guessing you mean? And the Pope and bishops kidnapped children, from orphanages, to give them to good Catholic families?

And the Irish orphanage thing I understand wasn't known by the higher ups.

Yes to the first two. The last was covered up by the hierarchy.

Also, sometimes from orphanages, sometimes from living parents, depending on the time period.

Well, I figured the church probably ran the last ghettos. I think everyone's good with that being gone.

And ok, so "kidnapping" children from orphanages to give them to good Catholic families doesn't strike me as being evil (maybe Chaotic Good, as it were)? They're orphans, they need families. Living families obviously isn't good.

Ah, figures.

[Nea Byzantia]

Jewish ghettos I'm guessing you mean? And the Pope and bishops kidnapped children, from orphanages, to give them to good Catholic families?

And the Irish orphanage thing I understand wasn't known by the higher ups.

Yes to the first two. The last was covered up by the hierarchy.

Also, sometimes from orphanages, sometimes from living parents, depending on the time period.

The ethnically German Queen of Greece, Frederika is alleged to have done the same with Orthodox Greek children during the years of the Greek Civil War (1944, 1946 - 1949); except instead of them being kidnapped and sent to "good Catholic families", its "good American families" instead. She denied it, of course.

But even if that's just Communist Propaganda, as she claimed, we do know Queen Frederika had an affair with the late Head of the CIA, Alan Dulles.