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Right-Wing Discussion Thread XVII: The Snark Enlightenment

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Has Shinzo Abe's leadership been good for Japan?

Yes
37
31%
No
31
26%
Unsure
53
44%
 
Total votes : 121

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Novus America
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Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:32 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Grand Britannia wrote:Theyre also behind on everything barring missile technology so what's your point?

And it doesn't cost "billions" to build a tank or plane outside a few exceptions, mainly the B-2.


Sometimes quantity is better than quality.


Sometimes. Sometimes it is not.
The best is quantity and quality. But that is not cheap.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Nea Byzantia
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Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Nea Byzantia » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:32 pm

Nova Cyberia wrote:
Grand Britannia wrote:Theyre also behind on everything barring missile technology so what's your point?

And it doesn't cost "billions" to build a tank or plane outside a few exceptions, mainly the B-2.

Well, you can blame communism and the collapse of the Soviet Union for that.

But besides, quality is not everything. Sometimes ROFLspamming your enemy with cheaper and simpler tanks is better.

Exactly. Nazi Germany had quality; better quality than anything the Allies could plate up, that's for sure. But they lacked quantity.

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Nea Byzantia
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Founded: Jun 03, 2016
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Nea Byzantia » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:33 pm

Novus America wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Sometimes quantity is better than quality.


Sometimes. Sometimes it is not.
The best is quantity and quality. But that is not cheap.

You can't always have both. Usually its one or the other.

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Grand Britannia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14559
Founded: Apr 15, 2012
Capitalizt

Postby Grand Britannia » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:36 pm

Nea Byzantia wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:Well, you can blame communism and the collapse of the Soviet Union for that.

But besides, quality is not everything. Sometimes ROFLspamming your enemy with cheaper and simpler tanks is better.

Exactly. Nazi Germany had quality; better quality than anything the Allies could plate up, that's for sure. But they lacked quantity.


The uh

No, they didnt. Have you heard of the Panther tank? How tank operators preferred not to traverse the hull of the Tiger I fearing it would break the threads? The mess that was German industrial practices?

On the other hand the U.S had the Sherman tank; a reliable tank from a streamlined production line that performed well in both anti tank and anti infantry roles, on top of being able to fulfill other roles with modifications. The whole "the sherman was crap" came from the poor performance of the Sherman's 75mm gun against Tiger Is, a heavy tank. Something the gun wasn't made to engage. This change once the 76mm was introduced and they could reliably engage them.
Last edited by Grand Britannia on Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Genivaria
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Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Genivaria » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:37 pm

Nea Byzantia wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:Well, you can blame communism and the collapse of the Soviet Union for that.

But besides, quality is not everything. Sometimes ROFLspamming your enemy with cheaper and simpler tanks is better.

Exactly. Nazi Germany had quality; better quality than anything the Allies could plate up, that's for sure. But they lacked quantity.

The Nazis also had over-engineered messes.
General Sherman did nothing wrong, fact.
Liberal Social Democrat.

Proud denouncer of the Taliban.

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Nea Byzantia
Senator
 
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Founded: Jun 03, 2016
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Nea Byzantia » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:37 pm

Grand Britannia wrote:
Nea Byzantia wrote:Exactly. Nazi Germany had quality; better quality than anything the Allies could plate up, that's for sure. But they lacked quantity.


The uh

No, they didnt. Have you heard of the Panther tank? How tank operators preferred not to traverse the hull of the Tiger I fearing it would break the threads? The mess that was German industrial practices?

Yes, yes, and Churchill won the War too all by his lonesome - it wasn't like America and Soviet Russia saved his ass.

Sarcasm aside, my point is, the Allies beat the Germans with quantity, not quality. That and Hitler was fighting a two front war.
Last edited by Nea Byzantia on Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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LiberNovusAmericae
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5732
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:39 pm

Novus America wrote:
North German Realm wrote:Wouldn't be much of a free market if you ban the market from doing something though, is it?


Completely free markets do not exist. Only ancaps believe in them. Liber might be more free market than you or me but they are not an ancap.

Economic freedom is relative.
And in fact most Post Soviet States have poor economic freedom. The government rigging the market in favor of government officials, transferring government property to them via corrupt deals and the like is not a very free market.

This ^^
Nova Cyberia wrote:Thank you. I appreciate your respect for my low opinion of you.
Call me Liber for short.
Not to be confused with Novus America. We are different people with very different political opinions.

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Novus America
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
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Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:39 pm

Nea Byzantia wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Sometimes. Sometimes it is not.
The best is quantity and quality. But that is not cheap.

You can't always have both. Usually its one or the other.


True, but it really depends on how much you can afford.

We really need to raise defense spending to 5% of GDP.

Also the US cannot compete with Russia and the PRC on cheap labor, not with the PRC on total men, our much higher wages require we focus more on higher end products, and better equipped forces. Labor costs keep us from spamming mass numbers of men and cheap crap.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

User avatar
Novus America
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Posts: 26585
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:41 pm

Nea Byzantia wrote:
Grand Britannia wrote:
The uh

No, they didnt. Have you heard of the Panther tank? How tank operators preferred not to traverse the hull of the Tiger I fearing it would break the threads? The mess that was German industrial practices?

Yes, yes, and Churchill won the War too all by his lonesome - it wasn't like America and Soviet Russia saved his ass.

Sarcasm aside, my point is, the Allies beat the Germans with quantity, not quality. That and Hitler was fighting a two front war.


Although the US hit the right combination of quantity AND quality.
With Japan the Hellcat was better in quality than anything they had, we trained our pilots better and we still built a crap ton of them.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

User avatar
Grand Britannia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14559
Founded: Apr 15, 2012
Capitalizt

Postby Grand Britannia » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:42 pm

Nea Byzantia wrote:
Grand Britannia wrote:
The uh

No, they didnt. Have you heard of the Panther tank? How tank operators preferred not to traverse the hull of the Tiger I fearing it would break the threads? The mess that was German industrial practices?

Yes, yes, and Churchill won the War too all by his lonesome - it wasn't like America and Soviet Russia saved his ass.

Sarcasm aside, my point is, the Allies beat the Germans with quantity, not quality. That and Hitler was fighting a two front war.


The allies beat them on quality and quantity, lol. Germans started using huge guns just so they could deal with Soviet armor, and the Sherman outperformed the Pz IV, which was the workhorse tank of the Wehrmacht.
Member of laissez-fair right-wing worker-mistreatment brigade
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Grand Britannia
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Founded: Apr 15, 2012
Capitalizt

Postby Grand Britannia » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:43 pm

Novus America wrote:
Nea Byzantia wrote:Yes, yes, and Churchill won the War too all by his lonesome - it wasn't like America and Soviet Russia saved his ass.

Sarcasm aside, my point is, the Allies beat the Germans with quantity, not quality. That and Hitler was fighting a two front war.


Although the US hit the right combination of quantity AND quality.
With Japan the Hellcat was better in quality than anything they had, we trained our pilots better and we still built a crap ton of them.


Not to mention US naval aircraft were tougher, better armed, and had superior engines to Japanese aircraft. On top of that we built them by the hundreds.
Member of laissez-fair right-wing worker-mistreatment brigade
Why Britannians are always late
Me as a good capitalist.
Mainland Map | "Weebs must secure the existence of anime and a future for cute aryan waifus"| IIwiki
I Identify as a Graf Zeppelin class aircraft carrier, please refer to me as she.
Economic Left/Right: 2.25 | Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 6.72

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Nea Byzantia
Senator
 
Posts: 4726
Founded: Jun 03, 2016
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Nea Byzantia » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:44 pm

Novus America wrote:
Nea Byzantia wrote:You can't always have both. Usually its one or the other.


True, but it really depends on how much you can afford.

We really need to raise defense spending to 5% of GDP.

You're ignoring the looming Sword of Damocles swinging over Washington's head: the National Debt. By 2025, the Federal Government will be spending a quarter of its budget servicing the national debt (making the interest payments). Long term, America may be able to continue picking on small little countries like Afghanistan, Iraq, or Iran; but it won't be able to keep up with Russia and China; whilst balancing its other internal expenses; not with the retired population rising and the working population shrinking. Of course, these problems won't really begin to fully manifest for another 10-15 years. But eventually, it'll catch up to Uncle Sam. America may have all the watches, but Her Enemies have all the Time.

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Nea Byzantia
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Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Nea Byzantia » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:45 pm

Grand Britannia wrote:
Nea Byzantia wrote:Yes, yes, and Churchill won the War too all by his lonesome - it wasn't like America and Soviet Russia saved his ass.

Sarcasm aside, my point is, the Allies beat the Germans with quantity, not quality. That and Hitler was fighting a two front war.


The allies beat them on quality and quantity, lol. Germans started using huge guns just so they could deal with Soviet armor, and the Sherman outperformed the Pz IV, which was the workhorse tank of the Wehrmacht.

When? In 1944-45? I'm talking about before Nazi Germany was getting curb-stomped at the end of the War.

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New haven america
Post Czar
 
Posts: 32547
Founded: Oct 08, 2012
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby New haven america » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:47 pm

I love how you said I was wrong about the US having a war based economy and are now arguing about the economic and strategic benefits of military contract work, with a lot of you supporting contract work. Gee, it's almost as if I had a point or something.

Now I'll just sit back and enjoy the delicious irony.
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Char/Axis 2020

That's all folks~

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Washington Resistance Army
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Father Knows Best State

Postby Washington Resistance Army » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:49 pm

New haven america wrote:I love how you said I was wrong about the US having a war based economy and are now arguing about the economic and strategic benefits of military contract work, with a lot of you supporting contract work. Gee, it's almost as if I had a point or something.

Now I'll just sit back and enjoy the delicious irony.


I don't think you understand the discussion at hand if you think it relates to your point.

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Grand Britannia
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Founded: Apr 15, 2012
Capitalizt

Postby Grand Britannia » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:49 pm

Nea Byzantia wrote:
Grand Britannia wrote:
The allies beat them on quality and quantity, lol. Germans started using huge guns just so they could deal with Soviet armor, and the Sherman outperformed the Pz IV, which was the workhorse tank of the Wehrmacht.

When? In 1944-45? I'm talking about before Nazi Germany was getting curb-stomped at the end of the War.


As early as when the war started. The workhorse tank of Germany were panzers I and II, which were outclassed by literally everything the Soviets, British and French had and only getting away with it by allied incompetence (im looking at you France). The Matilda in north Africa was unkillable to German forces to the point they considered falling back from being unable to figure out how to deal with it. The Panzer III in the eastern front could barely cope with Soviet tanks as it was considered infantry support.

Again, Germany was winning at the start due to allied incompetence and the Soviets just not being ready for a major war.
Member of laissez-fair right-wing worker-mistreatment brigade
Why Britannians are always late
Me as a good capitalist.
Mainland Map | "Weebs must secure the existence of anime and a future for cute aryan waifus"| IIwiki
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Nova Cyberia
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Founded: May 06, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Nova Cyberia » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:50 pm

Novus America wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:It's too essential of an industry to be left in the hands of private contractors who themselves as you said have different competing interests - interests which do not always align with national interests.

The Russians are able to get their military equipment far more cheaply than we do. Why? Because they have a large, domestic arms industry controlled by the state. It costs of us millions (sometimes even billions) just to get a single tank or fighter.


The Russian defense industry is a mess.
Transferring it to state owned monopolies has not improved its performance.
And leaves them with no alternatives.
The main reason the have lower costs is they pay their workers very little.

Our wages are much higher.
Sure the defense industry should not be ENTIRELY in private hands. Nor entirely in government hands either.
Compare NASA to Space X for example.

If we relied just on NASA we would be screwed.

Some of it might be because of lower wages and it might also be because its relatively easy for the government to charge itself cheap prices.

And of course it's going to be a mess. Russia's a corrupt oligarchy. We can do it better than them.
Last edited by Nova Cyberia on Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Yes, yes, I get it. I'm racist and fascist because I disagree with you. Can we skip that part? I've heard it a million times before and I guarantee it won't be any different when you do it
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Nova Cyberia
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Founded: May 06, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Nova Cyberia » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:51 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
New haven america wrote:I love how you said I was wrong about the US having a war based economy and are now arguing about the economic and strategic benefits of military contract work, with a lot of you supporting contract work. Gee, it's almost as if I had a point or something.

Now I'll just sit back and enjoy the delicious irony.


I don't think you understand the discussion at hand if you think it relates to your point.

How shocking. /s
Yes, yes, I get it. I'm racist and fascist because I disagree with you. Can we skip that part? I've heard it a million times before and I guarantee it won't be any different when you do it
##############
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New haven america
Post Czar
 
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Founded: Oct 08, 2012
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby New haven america » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:56 pm

Nova Cyberia wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
I don't think you understand the discussion at hand if you think it relates to your point.

How shocking. /s

If that's the excuse that you want to use, then that's cool, as I have neither the power nor care to actually stop you from thinking so. :)
Human of the male variety
Will accept TGs
Char/Axis 2020

That's all folks~

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Nova Cyberia
Senator
 
Posts: 4456
Founded: May 06, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Nova Cyberia » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:58 pm

New haven america wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:How shocking. /s

If that's the excuse that you want to use, then that's cool, as I have neither the power nor care to actually stop you from thinking so. :)

Thank you. I appreciate your respect for my low opinion of you. :)
Yes, yes, I get it. I'm racist and fascist because I disagree with you. Can we skip that part? I've heard it a million times before and I guarantee it won't be any different when you do it
##############
American Nationalist
Third Positionist Gang

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LiberNovusAmericae
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5732
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:59 pm

Nova Cyberia wrote:
New haven america wrote:If that's the excuse that you want to use, then that's cool, as I have neither the power nor care to actually stop you from thinking so. :)

Thank you. I appreciate your respect for my low opinion of you. :)

That is sig worthy.
Nova Cyberia wrote:Thank you. I appreciate your respect for my low opinion of you.
Call me Liber for short.
Not to be confused with Novus America. We are different people with very different political opinions.

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Novus America
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26585
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:00 pm

Nea Byzantia wrote:
Novus America wrote:
True, but it really depends on how much you can afford.

We really need to raise defense spending to 5% of GDP.

You're ignoring the looming Sword of Damocles swinging over Washington's head: the National Debt. By 2025, the Federal Government will be spending a quarter of its budget servicing the national debt (making the interest payments). Long term, America may be able to continue picking on small little countries like Afghanistan, Iraq, or Iran; but it won't be able to keep up with Russia and China; whilst balancing its other internal expenses; not with the retired population rising and the working population shrinking. Of course, these problems won't really begin to fully manifest for another 10-15 years. But eventually, it'll catch up to Uncle Sam. America may have all the watches, but Her Enemies have all the Time.


The PRC and Russia have worse demographics than we do.
So there time is on our side. The PRC has a much worse aging crisis than we do.

Also the US debt is denominated in USD.
We can play lots of games with it as a result.

Sure we need to raise revenue, and cut waste.
It is something we can and should address. Cutting the military would do little though, high healthcare costs are the biggest problem that can be fixed.

Also we can expand our working population at will via immigration.

We can and should give PRC and Russian electronic, steel, aluminum, shipbuilding, defense and aerospace workers green cards if they want to defect. We can steal their laborers.

They cannot compete with our wages.
That alone can give us victory.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

User avatar
Nova Cyberia
Senator
 
Posts: 4456
Founded: May 06, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Nova Cyberia » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:00 pm

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:Thank you. I appreciate your respect for my low opinion of you. :)

That is sig worthy.

I aim to please.
Yes, yes, I get it. I'm racist and fascist because I disagree with you. Can we skip that part? I've heard it a million times before and I guarantee it won't be any different when you do it
##############
American Nationalist
Third Positionist Gang

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Grand Britannia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14559
Founded: Apr 15, 2012
Capitalizt

Postby Grand Britannia » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:02 pm

China is set to lose about half its population due to aging before 2050.

Our problems are mild by comparison.
Member of laissez-fair right-wing worker-mistreatment brigade
Why Britannians are always late
Me as a good capitalist.
Mainland Map | "Weebs must secure the existence of anime and a future for cute aryan waifus"| IIwiki
I Identify as a Graf Zeppelin class aircraft carrier, please refer to me as she.
Economic Left/Right: 2.25 | Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 6.72

User avatar
Novus America
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26585
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:02 pm

Nova Cyberia wrote:
Novus America wrote:
The Russian defense industry is a mess.
Transferring it to state owned monopolies has not improved its performance.
And leaves them with no alternatives.
The main reason the have lower costs is they pay their workers very little.

Our wages are much higher.
Sure the defense industry should not be ENTIRELY in private hands. Nor entirely in government hands either.
Compare NASA to Space X for example.

If we relied just on NASA we would be screwed.

Some of it might be because of lower wages and it might also be because its relatively easy for the government to charge itself cheap prices.

And of course it's going to be a mess. Russia's a corrupt oligarchy. We can do it better than them.


NASA’s failures do not leave me optimistic. The private space industry is the only thing keeping us up in space for example. Public private partnerships with the right balance are the best option, for research and manufacturing at least (actual operations should stay in military hands, PMC mercenary types have a bad record).
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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