Right-Wing Discussion Thread XVII: The Snark Enlightenment

[United Muscovite Nations]

“Britain assassinated Franz Ferdinand.”

That’s one I haven’t heard before.

They wree by far the biggest beneficiaries. They had the means and they had the motive.

Everyone has the means and motive to do a lot of things, that doesn't mean they're guilty of the crime.

[Nea Byzantia]

They wree by far the biggest beneficiaries. They had the means and they had the motive.

Everyone has the means and motive to do a lot of things, that doesn't mean they're guilty of the crime.

I can't prove that they are, per se. I'm just saying its very much something Britain would do; and that the conventional narrative doesn't quite add up. There's a lot of fog surrounding those events.

[Fahran]

Is this something that's only turned up after the war?

Because from what I've read, Austro-Hungarian investigations into the connection between the assassination and the Serbian government didn't turn up anything.

I suspect much of this information came out later after review by historians, but I'm willing to bet that the Austria-Hungarians had a reasonable suspicion that someone was pulling the strings from Belgrade, especially given the course of action they chose throughout the war. They conceded early on, for example, that their objective wouldn't be an annexation of Serbia but rather a simple halt in Belgrade. Sadly, that communique never reached the Russians, who believed Austria-Hungary intended to annex Serbia. The one demand in the ultimatum that was declined, if memory serves, is the demand that Austria-Hungary be able to investigate within Serbia.

[Kowani]

“Britain assassinated Franz Ferdinand.”

That’s one I haven’t heard before.

They were by far the biggest beneficiaries. They had the means and they had the motive.

Except they had absolutely no way of knowing that would work out in their favor.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Everyone has the means and motive to do a lot of things, that doesn't mean they're guilty of the crime.

I can't prove that they are, per se. I'm just saying its very much something Britain would do; and that the conventional narrative doesn't quite add up. There's a lot of fog surrounding those events.

"I can't prove Britain murdered a foreign leader, but I'm going to use it as the lynch-pin of my argument."

[Nea Byzantia]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragutin_Dimitrijević

It's literally the reason history remembers the man.

"It was a false flag" is a baseless conspiracy theory, especially when we have an organization dominated by Bosnian Serbs with ties to Serbian military brass. As for motivations, Franz Ferdinand's conciliatory attitude towards his future Slavic subjects likely would have diminished the appeal of separatist and nationalist movements, thus undermining the Pan-Slavic objective of creating what would become the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. The objective was to encourage a crackdown by Vienna and, as a result, an uprising by Bosnian Serbs and other Slavs. It was also an example of propaganda of the deed, lashing out against the some vestige of the hated Austria-Hungarian oppressor.

Is this something that's only turned up after the war?

Because from what I've read, Austro-Hungarian investigations into the connection between the assassination and the Serbian government didn't turn up anything.

This is my point. Something very fishy happened there. Clearly it wasn't the Serbs; but it was meant to set them up. So clearly, it was the actions of some outside Party that would've served to benefit from drawing Germany and Russia into war with each other; and the country which would most benefit from that - and indeed did benefit - was Britain.

[Nea Byzantia]

I can't prove that they are, per se. I'm just saying its very much something Britain would do; and that the conventional narrative doesn't quite add up. There's a lot of fog surrounding those events.

"I can't prove Britain murdered a foreign leader, but I'm going to use it as the lynch-pin of my argument."

Well there's no evidence the Serbs did it.

[Salus Maior]

Is this something that's only turned up after the war?

Because from what I've read, Austro-Hungarian investigations into the connection between the assassination and the Serbian government didn't turn up anything.

I suspect much of this information came out later after review by historians, but I'm willing to bet that the Austria-Hungarians had a reasonable suspicion that someone was pulling the strings from Belgrade, especially given the course of action they chose throughout the war. They conceded early on, for example, that their objective wouldn't be an annexation of Serbia but rather a simple halt in Belgrade. Sadly, that communique never reached the Russians, who believed Austria-Hungary intended to annex Serbia. The one demand in the ultimatum that was declined, if memory serves, is the demand that Austria-Hungary be able to investigate within Serbia.

While I am something of an Austria-boo I believe the demand entailed something of a military occupation, or some kind of stationing of Imperial troops in Serbia itself. Which of course would be unacceptable to Serbia or any sovereign country.

[United Muscovite Nations]

They were by far the biggest beneficiaries. They had the means and they had the motive.

Except they had absolutely no way of knowing that would work out in their favor.

[Fahran]

Britain literally didn't do anything wrong.

What about assassinating Franz Ferdinand, pinning it on the Serbs to get a war going between the Russians and Germans? Sure they got their hands dirty themselves, but so what, the point of the War was to weaken and destabilize Russia and Germany. Britain was certainly the biggest beneficiary of the War.

Frankly, the Serbs benefited quite extensively from the assassination since the Serbian nationalists got essentially everything they wanted in the aftermath of the Versailles Treaty. Austria-Hungary was dissolved and Yugoslavia was finally established.

[United Muscovite Nations]

"I can't prove Britain murdered a foreign leader, but I'm going to use it as the lynch-pin of my argument."

Well there's no evidence the Serbs did it.

There's plenty of evidence, however, that a Bosniak-Serb dissident group killed him, with possible influence from elements within the Serbian government.

[Nea Byzantia]

They were by far the biggest beneficiaries. They had the means and they had the motive.

Except they had absolutely no way of knowing that would work out in their favor.

What did they have to lose?

[Salus Maior]

This is my point. Something very fishy happened there. Clearly it wasn't the Serbs; but it was meant to set them up. So clearly, it was the actions of some outside Party that would've served to benefit from drawing Germany and Russia into war with each other; and the country which would most benefit from that - and indeed did benefit - was Britain.

Well, it was the Serbs, but the Serbs within Austria. The Black Hand was a Serbian terrorist group within Austria, and they had cause regardless to commit the crime.

[Fahran]

"I can't prove Britain murdered a foreign leader, but I'm going to use it as the lynch-pin of my argument."

Well there's no evidence the Serbs did it.

Except that Black Hand was filled with Bosnian Serbs and acted as a proxy for Pan-Slavic nationalists within the Serbian military.

[Nea Byzantia]

What about assassinating Franz Ferdinand, pinning it on the Serbs to get a war going between the Russians and Germans? Sure they got their hands dirty themselves, but so what, the point of the War was to weaken and destabilize Russia and Germany. Britain was certainly the biggest beneficiary of the War.

Frankly, the Serbs benefited quite extensively from the assassination.

Only after the war; and that outcome was by no means guaranteed.

[Nea Byzantia]

Well there's no evidence the Serbs did it.

Except that Black Hand was filled with Bosnian Serbs and acted as a proxy for Pan-Slavic nationalists within the Serbian military.

Bosnian Serbs in the Austrian Empire; not the Serbian Government.

[Kowani]

Except they had absolutely no way of knowing that would work out in their favor.

Somehow, that’s less hideous than the actual Tzeench.

Except they had absolutely no way of knowing that would work out in their favor.

What did they have to lose?

This is a joke, right?

[Salus Maior]

Except that Black Hand was filled with Bosnian Serbs and acted as a proxy for Pan-Slavic nationalists within the Serbian military.

Bosnian Serbs in the Austrian Empire; not the Serbian Government.

Well, given Fahran's information I now think it's quite likely that Serbia was behind it. Even if no connection turned up for A-H investigators at the time.

[Nea Byzantia]

Somehow, that’s less hideous than the actual Tzeench.

What did they have to lose?

This is a joke, right?

We're looking back in hindsight. Do you think they knew the Germans would invade Belgium and rope them into the War?

[North German Realm]

What about assassinating Franz Ferdinand, pinning it on the Serbs to get a war going between the Russians and Germans? Sure they got their hands dirty themselves, but so what, the point of the War was to weaken and destabilize Russia and Germany. Britain was certainly the biggest beneficiary of the War.

Frankly, the Serbs benefited quite extensively from the assassination since the Serbian nationalists got essentially everything they wanted in the aftermath of the Versailles Treaty. Austria-Hungary was dissolved and Yugoslavia was finally established.

Honestly this.

Frankly, the Serbs benefited quite extensively from the assassination.

Only after the war; and that outcome was by no means guaranteed.

That's really because nobody even expected the murder of the Austrian Archduke (who wasn't even popular enough, if you go by the recorded "aftermath" of his death in Wien before shit started hitting the fan) to start the largest conflict humans had ever seen. That said, the war wasn't even their goal. The elimination of the most viable threat against separatism in Bosnia (and possibly even more) was.

[Fahran]

While I am something of an Austria-boo I believe the demand entailed something of a military occupation, or some kind of stationing of Imperial troops in Serbia itself. Which of course would be unacceptable to Serbia or any sovereign country.

I'd have to reread the document. I do believe it was worded in such a way that it would undermine Serbian sovereignty, but I think the demand was also one that made sense in the context of it potentially preventing a cover-up to protect Serbian military officers who might have been dragged into the investigation. Wasn't Europe somewhat pro-Austrian initially due to the assassination, even supporting the ultimatum?

[United Muscovite Nations]

Except they had absolutely no way of knowing that would work out in their favor.

What did they have to lose?

The war?

[Nea Byzantia]

What did they have to lose?

The war?

But they didn't know it was going to reach them.

[Kowani]

Somehow, that’s less hideous than the actual Tzeench.



This is a joke, right?

We're looking back in hindsight. Do you think they knew the Germans would invade Belgium and rope them into the War?

No.
But. (Read in obnoxious fake British accent) “Hello, my Lords. I have cooked up an ingenious scheme to inhibit those dreadful Austrians.” “We assassinate their heir-and pin it on the Serbs!”

You’d get kicked out of London for something that stupid.

[Fahran]

Bosnian Serbs in the Austrian Empire; not the Serbian Government.

Well, given Fahran's information I now think it's quite likely that Serbia was behind it. Even if no connection turned up for A-H investigators at the time.

I do want to point out that there are no direct links to the King Peter I of Serbia or to many of his ministers. My suspicion is that a cabal of important military officers cloaked by some sympathetic ministers and maybe even a sympathetic member of the royal family might have been involved. That said, the evidence ends pretty abruptly with the military officers, though we can say that they interacted, sometimes positively, sometimes negatively, with the Serbian government. And it would have caused a major scandal.