Right-Wing Discussion Thread XVII: The Snark Enlightenment

[Fahran]

I'd take claims of wanting to ethnically cleanse Jews more seriously if Israel weren't ethnically cleansing the occupied territories.

The truth of such claims can can more or less be demonstrated by a short walk through the history of the local Arab political movements. Israel ethnically cleansing them because they won the fight doesn't really dispel the truth inherent in the claims. For example, just because the Serbians wanted to ethnically cleanse the Bosniaks doesn't mean that the Bosniaks aren't now ethnically cleansing the Serbians. Israel has a vested interesting in maintaining its security and the rights of its citizens - that extends to banning people who would compromise either of those.

[Cappuccina]

Wtf did y'all drink last night?

[Fahran]

Almost like Israel's actions caused the ascendancy of Hamas.

Ethnically cleansing the Jews has been a Palestinian policy position since well before Hamas became an organized and distinct political faction. It even precedes Israel's existence if we're being frank. The group Tlaib was going to meet is based in the West Bank, and thus isn't Hamas.

[United Muscovite Nations]

I'd take claims of wanting to ethnically cleanse Jews more seriously if Israel weren't ethnically cleansing the occupied territories.

The truth of such claims can can more or less be demonstrated by a short walk through the history of the local Arab political movements. Israel ethnically cleansing them because they won the fight doesn't really dispel the truth inherent in the claims. For example, just because the Serbians wanted to ethnically cleanse the Bosniaks doesn't mean that the Bosniaks aren't now ethnically cleansing the Serbians. Israel has a vested interesting in maintaining its security and the rights of its citizens - that extends to banning people who would compromise either of those.

Israel can maintain its security and the rights of its citizens within its own country, but Israel views all of Palestine, from the Mediterranean to the Jordan, as its religious birthright.

[Benuty]

I would say it has a bit to do with it. The Palestinians are essentially upjumps who can’t figure out how their pathetic excuse of a nation will die faster. Whether it’s by the water running out or becoming too polluted to drink or by angry Israelis bombing the hell of them for launching attacks that end up killing people. The Arabs play the Palestinian sympathy card, but at the end of the day treat them no better than a syphilitic prostitute begging a mob boss for money to get treatment when it’s too late.

I don't think you're giving the Palestinians enough credit here. I view them about as sympathetically as I view the Kurds, the Catalans, or any other secessionist/nationalist group. I believe they have a right to their own nation-state and to basic human dignity, and I believe that, providing they can come to an accord with the Israelis, they'll produce a state that's par for the course when it comes to stability in the Arab world. The issue is that the Israelis and Palestinians can't really agree on where they want the border to be.

Considering the whole UN involvement to establish borders was a farce that helped legitimize an an involvement by other nations to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. I think the only solid chance Israel, and Palestine had was for the conflict to remain between them. The state of Israel was going to be founded regardless of the UN involvement. They were already fighting on several fronts with the Palestinians. Eventually following a period of bloodletting the two may have come to terms of bitter peace.

Once the conflict became existential the Palestinians were destined to lose, and as such they quite well did. Otherwise the Jordanians wouldn’t have annexed the West Bank like they did, and would have allowed the continuation of a Palestinian state.

[Fahran]

Israel has been violating the Oslo Accords and not giving credence to the peace process for decades before Hamas gained power.

Because Israelis have given up on the peace process in the absence of a viable partner in peace.

[Salus Maior]

That is true.
The sad thing is the Crusades could have been good, but alas greed turned them into mass murdering mercenaries.

It was about Money and Power from the beginning, how was it supposed to end well?

By establishing a Christian kingdom in the Holy Land and giving support to the declining Byzzies.

[Novus America]

It was not about money and power for most people at the beginning though.

^ I'm not even sure we should say it was about that for the powerful at the beginning. I've said before I really don't like ascribing cynical motives to people.

Well for the Venetians I think it was evil from the beginning.
But not for the Popes or the Frankish German kings and lords initially.
Though many became corrupted as they went along.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Israel has been violating the Oslo Accords and not giving credence to the peace process for decades before Hamas gained power.

Because Israelis have given up on the peace process in the absence of a viable partner in peace.

Israel was violating the peace process during the negotiations. Israel is the non-viable peace partner.

[Nea Byzantia]

It was about Money and Power from the beginning, how was it supposed to end well?

By establishing a Christian kingdom in the Holy Land and giving support to the declining Byzzies.

Did you miss my previous post?

[Nea Byzantia]

^ I'm not even sure we should say it was about that for the powerful at the beginning. I've said before I really don't like ascribing cynical motives to people.

Well for the Venetians I think it was evil from the beginning.
But not for the Popes or the Frankish German kings and lords initially.
Though many became corrupted as they went along.

Money talks.

[North German Realm]

^ I'm not even sure we should say it was about that for the powerful at the beginning. I've said before I really don't like ascribing cynical motives to people.

Well for the Venetians I think it was evil from the beginning.
But not for the Popes or the Frankish German kings and lords initially.
Though many became corrupted as they went along.

The Pope literally started the shitflinging because he wanted to either unite the Christendom under his banner or -provided that wouldn't happen- ensure the weakening of the Orthodoxy. It was never about the Muslims for the Pope, it was about defeating the largest viable threat to the Papacy in Christendom.

[Old Tyrannia]

^ I'm not even sure we should say it was about that for the powerful at the beginning. I've said before I really don't like ascribing cynical motives to people.

Well for the Venetians I think it was evil from the beginning.
But not for the Popes or the Frankish German kings and lords initially.
Though many became corrupted as they went along.

I don't believe that Venice had much of a role in launching the crusades in the first place.

[Nea Byzantia]

Well for the Venetians I think it was evil from the beginning.
But not for the Popes or the Frankish German kings and lords initially.
Though many became corrupted as they went along.

The Pope literally started the shitflinging because he wanted to either unite the Christendom under his banner or -provided that wouldn't happen- ensure the weakening of the Orthodoxy. It was never about the Muslims for the Pope, it was about defeating the largest viable threat to the Papacy in Christendom.

And when we didn't come quietly, they tried to beat us into submission. We have many martyrs from the Latinokratia.

[Nea Byzantia]

Well for the Venetians I think it was evil from the beginning.
But not for the Popes or the Frankish German kings and lords initially.
Though many became corrupted as they went along.

I don't believe that Venice had much of a role in launching the crusades in the first place.

Financially and logistically they did. Which Monarch in Europe could afford such a vast, financial undertaking on their own?

[Fahran]

Israel can maintain its security and the rights of its citizens within its own country, but Israel views all of Palestine, from the Mediterranean to the Jordan, as its religious birthright.

That's not quite accurate. Some Israelis obviously do, but those Israelis usually vote for one of the more radical political parties. The principal reason for present Israeli actions has more to do with abysmal failure of the peace process. The Palestinians want a return to the pre-1967 borders and probably a bit of land beyond that, something that would take away the certainty of access to religious sites for Jews, as occurred when East Jerusalem was occupied by Jordan, would necessitate the ethnic cleansing of Jews from the terrorizes ceded to Palestine, and that would leave Israel geographically indefensible in the event that another war flared up. Short of a peace where Palestine accepts present realities and takes a reasonably generous offer, Israel is best served in pressing to the Jordan so that it has a definite geographic barrier for military purposes.

[Cappuccina]

Because Israelis have given up on the peace process in the absence of a viable partner in peace.

Israel was violating the peace process during the negotiations. Israel is the non-viable peace partner.

Israel has no interest in peace. They're pretty uppity for a fake nation.

[Salus Maior]

It was not about money and power for most people at the beginning though.

^ I'm not even sure we should say it was about that for the powerful at the beginning. I've said before I really don't like ascribing cynical motives to people.

Pretty much any political action one way or another becomes about money and power. Because that's what politics is: money and power.

[Novus America]

Because Israelis have given up on the peace process in the absence of a viable partner in peace.

Israel was violating the peace process during the negotiations. Israel is the non-viable peace partner.

It is not fair to place it purely on Israel, though Israel did not always play nice to day the least.
Israel actually offered many deals.
Did completely leave Gaza. Only put the blockade in place after Hamas took over and started a war.

Obviously Hamas wants Israel completely destroyed.
If you vote for the destruction of Israel, you do not want peace.

[Fahran]

And when we didn't come quietly, they tried to beat us into submission. We have many martyrs from the Latinokratia.

The Pope actually excommunicated those who participated in the ill-fated 5th Crusade if I recall correctly.

[Nea Byzantia]

Israel was violating the peace process during the negotiations. Israel is the non-viable peace partner.

It is not fair to place it purely on Israel, though Israel did not always play nice to day the least.
Israel actually offered many deals.
Did completely leave Gaza. Only put the blockade in place after Hamas took over and started a war.

Obviously Hamas wants Israel completely destroyed.
If you vote for the destruction of Israel, you do not want peace.

If Israel had actually sought to negotiate with the Palestinians in good faith, Hamas would've never risen. No sane person goes to total war without being in a desperate situation with no other choice.

[Benuty]

Israel was violating the peace process during the negotiations. Israel is the non-viable peace partner.

Israel has no interest in peace. They're pretty uppity for a fake nation.

Fake nations typically don’t have the military industrial apparatus to screw other nations over so severely though. Even in the Yom Kippur war the Egyptians had an entire army cut off, and lost access to the Suez.

[Salus Maior]

And when we didn't come quietly, they tried to beat us into submission. We have many martyrs from the Latinokratia.

The Pope actually excommunicated those who participated in the ill-fated 5th Crusade if I recall correctly.

4th Crusade. And they were actually excommunicated before that because they murdered Christians in Ragusa iirc (also at the behest of the Venetians).

[Novus America]

Israel was violating the peace process during the negotiations. Israel is the non-viable peace partner.

Israel has no interest in peace. They're pretty uppity for a fake nation.

“Fake nation”?
Not starting off well then. This is partially why Israel is so “uppity”.
You cannot claim it is Paranoia when you start out like that.

Some Israeli’s do not have an interest in peace true.
But that is not all Israeli’s.

Unfortunately Israel’s unstable political system does not help.

[Nea Byzantia]

And when we didn't come quietly, they tried to beat us into submission. We have many martyrs from the Latinokratia.

The Pope actually excommunicated those who participated in the ill-fated 5th Crusade if I recall correctly.

You're thinking of the Fourth Crusade, and the excommunication of the sackers of Constantinople was just some political kabuki to keep the critics at home quiet. The Pontifex Maximus had no problem profiting off of the cheap shot to Eastern Rome.