"Und Doch" Trend

[Arcturus Novus]

Put an orange wig on the skull and call it "Und Don".

I can't believe original Trump jokes exist somehow.

[Nakena]

Put an orange wig on the skull and call it "Und Don".

Be careful what you wish for:

[Great Algerstonia]

Put an orange wig on the skull and call it "Und Don".

Be careful what you wish for:

That, my friend, is glorious.

[Nea Byzantia]

I hate Antifa.

Although that's mainly because they're chaotic, disorganized violence with no coherent ideology other than "Nazis bad", and tend to be popular with the college Anarchist crowd, rather than any real, organized, centralized group.

You want it strict and disciplined? Maybe you should join our gang then. ;^)

Which gang is this?

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

Ha! If you can't beat 'em, join 'em

[Nouveau Quebecois]

Ha! If you can't beat 'em, join 'em

"Und Don" was better...

[Scomagia]

Ha! If you can't beat 'em, join 'em

Well done.

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

Ha! If you can't beat 'em, join 'em

"Und Don" was better...

Nah

[Nakena]

Be careful what you wish for:

(Image)

That, my friend, is glorious.

Thanks, feel free to use it.

You want it strict and disciplined? Maybe you should join our gang then. ;^)

Which gang is this?

Anti-Bolshevik Brigade.

[Cekoviu]

I hate Antifa.

Although that's mainly because they're chaotic, disorganized violence with no coherent ideology other than "Nazis bad", and tend to be popular with the college Anarchist crowd, rather than any real, organized, centralized group.

You want it strict and disciplined? Maybe you should join our gang then. ;^)

Is it a BDSM gang?

[Kowani]

That, my friend, is glorious.

Thanks, feel free to use it.

Which gang is this?

Anti-Bolshevik Brigade.

Weren’t you 3rd positionist?

[Nakena]

You want it strict and disciplined? Maybe you should join our gang then. ;^)

Is it a BDSM gang?

Thats very kinky.

Thanks, feel free to use it.



Anti-Bolshevik Brigade.

Weren’t you 3rd positionist?

The gang? its smoller.

[Rostavykhan]

Which gang is this?

Anti-Bolshevik Brigade.

But muh Stalin.

You want it strict and disciplined? Maybe you should join our gang then. ;^)

Is it a BDSM gang?

I can dig it.

:dab:

[Nuclear Wastelands]

I'm ok with the meme.

If you make fun of something, you give it less credibility, hence why I make fun of all sorts of Ideologies

[Mutz]

Just a heads-up: Since I'm a historian in a German language enviroment, most of the sources are gonna be in German. But considering that this is pretty fundamental "Roots of the Third Reich" stuff, it should be quite easy to check the veracity of my claims for yourself in reputable English sources.

Lately, I've been seeing nations pop up with the infamous Iron Division of the Freikorps motto, "Und Doch". The Iron Division, otherwise known as the Iron Brigade, was a Latvian Freikorps Unit formed by Major Josef Bischoff. The unit comprised of ethnic-German and Baltic volunteers to resist the Bolshevik's Eastward advance to reclaim lost territories. The official mission assigned to this force was to prevent any Red Army advance into East Prussia, but its real mission was to help the Baltic Germans re-establish their own state or dominance in Latvia. Eventually tensions within the ranks blew, and the Iron Brigade ended up fighting Bolsheviks, Estonians, and Latvians on scatter occasions. On several occasions the Allies pressured Germany to recall the Iron Division, but no retreat was made until a decisive Latvian victory in battle (supported by the Allies), forced the Iron Division into a scatter retreat. While retreating from the Baltic, discipline amongst the Iron Division broke down and many fighters 'ran wild through the country side marauding in complete disorder'. 'They drove the Latvians 'like rabbits across the fields'. They burned houses, destroyed bridges and telephone poles. They threw bodies into wells, followed by hand grenades. Eventually, the unit disintegrated, and many stayed in Latvia and ended up in the Latvian Army.

Axis History Forums says it's difficult to translate, as literally it just means 'And Yet', or 'Nevertheless', and is meant to convey is that, despite all hardships, the Iron Division will stand the test of time. Technically it doesn't carry National Socialist ideology, and the moderators seem to be letting it slide.
[...]

Uhhh....that's quite some work that the term "technically" has to carry out there. Pretty much stretched beyond all recognition really. The Freikorps movement after WWI in general and the Iron Division in specific were, at the very least, proto-Nazi and literally tried to overthrow the democratically elected Weimar goverment in 1920 in the Kapp-Lüttwitz-Putsch. Article from the Deutsches historisches Museum:https://www.dhm.de/lemo/kapitel/weimarer-republik/innenpolitik/kapp/

Their influence weren't exactly subtle, here's part of a song by the Brigade Erhardt:""Hakenkreuz am Stahlhelm, schwarz-weiß-rotes Band, die Brigade Erhardt werden wir genannt"" -> Translates to "Swastika on the steel helmet, red-white-black armband, the Brigade Erhardt we are called"

Helmet that the Brigade Eberhardt wore during the Kapp-Putsch.


Pic from the Bundesarchiv. The banner carried by these charmers reads "Stop! Anyone who walks further will be shot"

As for how their actions matched the rationale of the Nazis beyond symbols and language: It was organised by the Freikorps commander Waldemar Pabst, who had also ordered the murder of Rosa Luxemburg and others by right-wing paramilitaries. So it probably shouldn't come as a great surprise that the Freikorpsler merrily murdered striking workers, socialists, republicans and unarmed civilians who they suspected to be part of one of the aforementioned not-völkisch enough gropus. Something that the Nazis in turn thought was grand and led them to demolish monuments that had been erected to honour the victims of this right-extremist coups. -> http://www.weimar-im-ns.de/ort35-2.php After the failure of the putsch the Freikorps in Germany dissolved and their members either established new völkische "Wehrverbände", i.e. "defense groups", or joined the SA. You know, that Nazi thing.

So far so Nazi regarding the Freikorps in Germany. So what's the exact connection to the so-called Iron Division?
Well, for one thing, they were part of the same Freikorps movement and the Baltic Germans were motivated by the ideological frame work of the "Drang nach Osten", i.e. "the compulsion/need to go east", which later got rebranded by Hitler as the idea of "Lebensraum in the east". Additionally, both Bischoff, the leader of the Iron Division and Alfred Fletcher, the leader of the Baltische Landeswehr (of which the Iron Division was more or less a part of), were member of the DNVP. The DeutschNationale VolksPartei in turn was the political party of the Freikorps movement, responsible for the Kapp-Putsch and after the failure of the same something along the lines of the little sibling of the NSDAP, before being officially integrated into the Hitler government in 1933. All while its various members, both during the time of the Iron Division and afterwards, merrily joined or founded other fascistic anti-democratic groups and terrorising the Weimar Republic by wantonly killing civilians and politicans as part of the so-called Femenmorde. ->Article about the Freikorps movement in the Baltics: http://www.bernhard-sauer-historiker.de ... entums.pdf

So yeah, one could argue in face of these facts, that the Iron Divison wasn't "technically" ideologically Nazi, since it was part of a movement, that preceded the establishement of the NSDAP, what with it being its direct ideological forerunner if not outright double. One could. But why?

I myself have in the last semester probably annoyed more than my fair share of new history students for constantly harping on about precise language, but this would be for me an example of missing the forest for the trees.
Yeah, they weren't Nazis in 1919, since the party hadn't been founded yet, but they still were part of an rabidly anti-socialist, völkische, anti-democratic, anti-semitic, Lebensraum-horny, swastika-fancying movement of the same breed as the Nazis.

[Scomagia]

I'm ok with the meme.

If you make fun of something, you give it less credibility, hence why I make fun of all sorts of Ideologies

Indeed. When I'm not feeling lazy, my next flag will be mocking Commies.

[Nea Byzantia]

That, my friend, is glorious.

Thanks, feel free to use it.

Which gang is this?

Anti-Bolshevik Brigade.

I'm down...

[Thermodolia]

I'm ok with the meme.

If you make fun of something, you give it less credibility, hence why I make fun of all sorts of Ideologies

Which is why I went with Und Tito

[Nakena]

So far so Nazi regarding the Freikorps in Germany. So what's the exact connection to the so-called Iron Division?
Well, for one thing, they were part of the same Freikorps movement and the Baltic Germans were motivated by the ideological frame work of the "Drang nach Osten", i.e. "the compulsion/need to go east", which later got rebranded by Hitler as the idea of "Lebensraum in the east". Additionally, both Bischoff, the leader of the Iron Division and Alfred Fletcher, the leader of the Baltische Landeswehr (of which the Iron Division was more or less a part of), were member of the DNVP. The DeutschNationale VolksPartei in turn was the political party of the Freikorps movement, responsible for the Kapp-Putsch and after the failure of the same something along the lines of the little sibling of the NSDAP, before being officially integrated into the Hitler government in 1933. All while its various members, both during the time of the Iron Division and afterwards, merrily joined or founded other fascistic anti-democratic groups and terrorising the Weimar Republic by wantonly killing civilians and politicans as part of the so-called Femenmorde. ->Article about the Freikorps movement in the Baltics: http://www.bernhard-sauer-historiker.de ... entums.pdf

Thanks I will look this stuff up I am very interested myself in history.

Also I wondered until someone would come up with the Kapp Putsch. Took way longer than expected. (and yes I am looking at you here The New California Republic for not finding this on your own when I almost had to show you it ^^)

So yeah, one could argue in face of these facts, that the Iron Divison wasn't "technically" ideologically Nazi, since it was part of a movement, that preceded the establishement of the NSDAP, what with it being its direct ideological forerunner if not outright double. One could. But why?

No I have to disagree with you here, and the Iron Division is NOT a forerunner to the NSDAP neither ideologically nor otherwise.

The NSDAP had its roots in the All-German Movement and obscure antisemitc and volkish groups such as the Thule Society which had their roots and places in Bavaria and Austria. The one specific Freikorps group associated with Hitler was the "Freikorps von Epp" one which operated in the same area and was involved in the fights surrounding the Bavarian Council Republic.

You know that as I do. ^^

I myself have in the last semester probably annoyed more than my fair share of new history students for constantly harping on about precise language, but this would be for me an example of missing the forest for the trees.
Yeah, they weren't Nazis in 1919, since the party hadn't been founded yet, but they still were part of an rabidly anti-socialist, völkische, anti-democratic, anti-semitic, Lebensraum-horny, swastika-fancying movement of the same breed as the Nazis.

DNVP and NSDAP were two different things, lets not mix up things too much. Hartzburger Front didn last exactly long. ^^

[Thermodolia]

The ADL is just a little bit biased, though...

Didn't they get sued for defamation? Or was that the SPLC?

SPLC

[Nea Byzantia]

Didn't they get sued for defamation? Or was that the SPLC?

SPLC

The ADL is still biased, either way...

[Thermodolia]

Mine is obviously the best.

Yes but mine is pretty ironic

[Scomagia]

Didn't they get sued for defamation? Or was that the SPLC?

SPLC

You're a little late.

[Nakena]

Thanks, feel free to use it.



Anti-Bolshevik Brigade.

I'm down...

All you need to do is adapt one of the skull flags as yours. Theres even three different variants to pick from!

https://i.redd.it/l3c1vzu23hn01.png < Classic version
https://i.redd.it/5q8uteptbal11.png < Three color version
https://www.panel555.com/images/UND_DOCH_bandera.jpg < Ornate version

SPLC

The ADL is still biased, either way...

ADL is generally better researched and knowledgeable. They know alot about the little differences and details.

[Thermodolia]

SPLC

You're a little late.

Eh it happens. I’m like an Italian always fashionably late to the party