"Und Doch" Trend

[Purgatio]

Or maybe those nationalists were killed for opposing the pro-German Niedra puppet government installed by the Freikorps in Riga rather than because they were ethnic Baltic (is that even a race? I don't know)

Killing off a group of people to ensure your ethnicities dominance is genocide even if you don’t say it’s for that purpose

The Niedra puppet government was established because the Freikorps were ordered to retreat to Germany by the Allies in WWI and the Freikorps refused, fearing it would leave the Baltics vulnerable to the Soviets, and installed the puppet government in Riga as a preventative measure. A very small number of Baltic nationalists were killed but only to defend that puppet government, not because of their race or ethnicity

[Nouveau Quebecois]

Sounds like the Soviet Union. Those darn Nazbols back at it again.

No ideology owns a monopoly on genocide

Except the Nazis by your logic.

[Purgatio]

That's the SPLC, Maajid Nawaz

Ah. I always forget. ADL is still pretty reliable, I think, unlike SPLC.

ADL did make a comment about how the reverse 'manji' swastika, a Buddhist symbol, on Japanese Pokeman cards had to be removed notwithstanding it was not a Nazi swastika (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/pokemon-symbol-a-swastika/), which as a Chinese guy really irked and annoyed me

[Scomagia]

Sounds like the Soviet Union. Those darn Nazbols back at it again.

No ideology owns a monopoly on genocide

Quite true.

[Internationalist Bastard]

No ideology owns a monopoly on genocide

Except the Nazis by your logic.

What?
No literally what?

[Purgatio]

Haha absolutely true, the Left's logic is that if I hate Communism, then I must be a Nazi

Are you capable of making an argument that isn't a straw man, or are we going to continuously pretend that the left is a monolith that has One Position and One Position Only, and that anyone who disagrees with that One Position is a literal actual Nazi?

If there are Leftists who don't believe this stuff, why don't more of them come right out and condemn it? Why are so many Democrats silent after the attack on Andy Ngo by ANTIFA thugs who labelled him a fascist without evidence? Why was AOC so unwilling to condemn ANTIFA violence when asked, after the ICE attack?

If there are Leftists who hate these smear tactics of calling everyone a fascist without proof, then why isn't there more condemnation of groups like ANTIFA that indulge in such tactics?

[Scomagia]

Are you capable of making an argument that isn't a straw man, or are we going to continuously pretend that the left is a monolith that has One Position and One Position Only, and that anyone who disagrees with that One Position is a literal actual Nazi?

If there are Leftists who don't believe this stuff, why don't more of them come right out and condemn it? Why are so many Democrats silent after the attack on Andy Ngo by ANTIFA thugs who labelled him a fascist without evidence? Why was AOC so unwilling to condemn ANTIFA violence when asked, after the ICE attack?

If there are Leftists who hate these smear tactics of calling everyone a fascist without proof, then why isn't there more condemnation of groups like ANTIFA that indulge in such tactics?

I'm vaguely leftist (not that the left-right dynamic really applies to anyone who isn't a total ideologue) and I hate Antifa and routinely denounce them.

[Nakena]

I am merely pointing out historical details. For example that Luxembourg and Liebknecht were being murdered on orders of social democratic President Friedrich Ebert.



That isnt even an answer. The "Und Doch" Iron Division was a formation in the Baltics fighting against Bolsheviks in 1919-1920. I am not aware of any genocidal acts or connections to Nazis (which didn existed back then.)

I corrected my pint on the time period but going around butchering villages of different ethnicities to secure your own is pretty genocidal

According to what I read about the Iron Division they didn engaged in genocide or ethnic cleansing nor were they affiliated to nazis nor any volkish/ethno-nationalist movement.

If anything they were more of a rag-tag mercanary formtion with disciplinary issues that operated in an overally very chaotic and diffuse political and military environment.

Ill can take a glance and maybe i find a few more sauces.

[Purgatio]

If there are Leftists who don't believe this stuff, why don't more of them come right out and condemn it? Why are so many Democrats silent after the attack on Andy Ngo by ANTIFA thugs who labelled him a fascist without evidence? Why was AOC so unwilling to condemn ANTIFA violence when asked, after the ICE attack?

If there are Leftists who hate these smear tactics of calling everyone a fascist without proof, then why isn't there more condemnation of groups like ANTIFA that indulge in such tactics?

I'm vaguely leftist (not that the left-right dynamic really applies to anyone who isn't a total ideologue) and I hate Antifa and routinely denounce them.

That's good, if only that attitude were common amongst the Left's elected politicians

[Arcturus Novus]

Inadvertently? Do you know how many high-ranking Nazis were former Freikorps troops? Or how the Sudeten Freikorps were literally formed to integrate German Czechs into the Reich? Their violent breed of anticommunism and German nationalism literally paved the way for Nazis to take over, and then went on to provide the party with experienced leadership.

Andy Ngo isn't even a journalist, he's just some tool who goes to rallies with the hopes of something controversial happening so he can post on Breitbart or whatever about "the ebul lefties". As for the reservists, the only sources I can find linking the attackers to Antifa groups are FOX, the Marine Corps Times, and the Daily Caller - not exactly the most objective news sites. And your third link - that guy pictured with a bloody head? Here's him at the same rally armed with a baton. He's a Three Percenter who went there with the intent of fighting. And the other guy was Adam Kelly, who works with the Proud Boys. Neither of those groups are as harmless as you'd like them to be.
Also, note how none of these people are dead. For some scary international cabal of left-wing terrorists, Antifa sure has a pathetic body count.

This is literal bad faith arguing, threepers and Proud Boys alike are literally laying the groundwork for a push toward the far right.

Is your argument really that Antifa isn't bad because they haven't murdered anybody yet? I guess the Weather Underground weren't terrorists either, right? I mean sure they blew up buildings but nobody died. And Ted Kaczynski only became a terrorist after his bombs actually killed people instead of just maiming them, right?

Okay, first off. Antifa isn't a singular organization. There's plenty of smallish groups with "antifa" in the name, yeah, but antifa is more of a tactic or a broad tent than anything. There is no unified national (or international) Antifa Organization or whatever. Treating them as a singular entity is naive at best.

Now, onto your other points. The Weathermen were deemed terrorists by the FBI, yeah, but I genuinely don't think they were in the wrong. They were fighting to end US military action abroad, and to further the goals of Black liberation groups like the Black Panthers. Their only targets were police, government, and corporate structures - the groups that they viewed as instrumental to American imperialism and racial divides. Their actions never targeted random people. And Kaczynski was anti-civ and anti-industry, sure, but I'd hardly call him a leftist. Certainly not a communist by any means.

[Rostavykhan]

They have a skull on their flag. Are they the baddies?

Skulls make everything cooler.

If there are Leftists who don't believe this stuff, why don't more of them come right out and condemn it? Why are so many Democrats silent after the attack on Andy Ngo by ANTIFA thugs who labelled him a fascist without evidence? Why was AOC so unwilling to condemn ANTIFA violence when asked, after the ICE attack?

If there are Leftists who hate these smear tactics of calling everyone a fascist without proof, then why isn't there more condemnation of groups like ANTIFA that indulge in such tactics?

I'm vaguely leftist (not that the left-right dynamic really applies to anyone who isn't a total ideologue) and I hate Antifa and routinely denounce them.

I hate Antifa.

Although that's mainly because they're chaotic, disorganized violence with no coherent ideology other than "Nazis bad", and tend to be popular with the college Anarchist crowd, rather than any real, organized, centralized group.

[Scomagia]

I'm vaguely leftist (not that the left-right dynamic really applies to anyone who isn't a total ideologue) and I hate Antifa and routinely denounce them.

That's good, if only that attitude were common amongst the Left's elected politicians

They are pandering to the vocal minority just like Republicans did with the Tea Party and now do with the Trumpists.

[Scomagia]

Is your argument really that Antifa isn't bad because they haven't murdered anybody yet? I guess the Weather Underground weren't terrorists either, right? I mean sure they blew up buildings but nobody died. And Ted Kaczynski only became a terrorist after his bombs actually killed people instead of just maiming them, right?

Okay, first off. Antifa isn't a singular organization. There's plenty of smallish groups with "antifa" in the name, yeah, but antifa is more of a tactic or a broad tent than anything. There is no unified national (or international) Antifa Organization or whatever. Treating them as a singular entity is naive at best.

Now, onto your other points. The Weathermen were deemed terrorists by the FBI, yeah, but I genuinely don't think they were in the wrong. They were fighting to end US military action abroad, and to further the goals of Black liberation groups like the Black Panthers. Their only targets were police, government, and corporate structures - the groups that they viewed as instrumental to American imperialism and racial divides. Their actions never targeted random people. And Kaczynski was anti-civ and anti-industry, sure, but I'd hardly call him a leftist. Certainly not a communist by any means.

So it isn't terrorism if you agree with the targets?

[Arcturus Novus]

Okay, first off. Antifa isn't a singular organization. There's plenty of smallish groups with "antifa" in the name, yeah, but antifa is more of a tactic or a broad tent than anything. There is no unified national (or international) Antifa Organization or whatever. Treating them as a singular entity is naive at best.

Now, onto your other points. The Weathermen were deemed terrorists by the FBI, yeah, but I genuinely don't think they were in the wrong. They were fighting to end US military action abroad, and to further the goals of Black liberation groups like the Black Panthers. Their only targets were police, government, and corporate structures - the groups that they viewed as instrumental to American imperialism and racial divides. Their actions never targeted random people. And Kaczynski was anti-civ and anti-industry, sure, but I'd hardly call him a leftist. Certainly not a communist by any means.

So it isn't terrorism if you agree with the targets?

I didn't say that. I also haven't once claimed that these people aren't terrorists. You can be a terrorist and still be in the right - the PKK in Kurdistan is seen as a terrorist organization by NATO and the EU, but they're actively fighting against ISIS and Assad.

[Scomagia]

So it isn't terrorism if you agree with the targets?

I didn't say that. I also haven't once claimed that these people aren't terrorists. You can be a terrorist and still be in the right - the PKK in Kurdistan is seen as a terrorist organization by NATO and the EU, but they're actively fighting against ISIS and Assad.

No, no you cannot be. The moment you attack civilians or civilian structures, you're in the wrong.

[Arcturus Novus]

I didn't say that. I also haven't once claimed that these people aren't terrorists. You can be a terrorist and still be in the right - the PKK in Kurdistan is seen as a terrorist organization by NATO and the EU, but they're actively fighting against ISIS and Assad.

No, no you cannot be. The moment you attack civilians or civilian structures, you're in the wrong.

Didn't know that's what defined terrorism. In that case, the US is undoubtedly a terrorist organization.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

No, no you cannot be. The moment you attack civilians or civilian structures, you're in the wrong.

Didn't know that's what defined terrorism. In that case, the US is undoubtedly a terrorist organization.

Our government should stop getting in other countries' affairs. We are in too many pointless wars.

[Scomagia]

No, no you cannot be. The moment you attack civilians or civilian structures, you're in the wrong.

Didn't know that's what defined terrorism. In that case, the US is undoubtedly a terrorist organization.

It's a good sign, usually.

States engage in terrorism. Shocking, I know. It's almost like the threat of unilateral violence is one of their defining features. Who knew?

[Scomagia]

Didn't know that's what defined terrorism. In that case, the US is undoubtedly a terrorist organization.

Our government should stop getting in other countries' affairs. We are in too many pointless wars.

Couldn't agree more. But we're evil if we get involved and evil if we don't. When you're top dog, no move is the right one to some people.

[Nakena]

I hate Antifa.

Although that's mainly because they're chaotic, disorganized violence with no coherent ideology other than "Nazis bad", and tend to be popular with the college Anarchist crowd, rather than any real, organized, centralized group.

You want it strict and disciplined? Maybe you should join our gang then. ;^)

[Great Algerstonia]

Great, another person who thinks the Und Doch were Nazis. Care to provide proof of that?

The fact that everyone who uses it is sympathetic to the fascists, see the nazis as preferable to the communists, literally inhabit the right wing discussion thread, support nationalism, and so forth.

That is blatantly wrong. Can you back up your claims with evidence instead of making false claims?

[Gormwood]

Put an orange wig on the skull and call it "Und Don".

[Scomagia]

The fact that everyone who uses it is sympathetic to the fascists, see the nazis as preferable to the communists, literally inhabit the right wing discussion thread, support nationalism, and so forth.

That is blatantly wrong. Can you back up your claims with evidence instead of making false claims?

They definitely can't. I'm using the meme (mockingly but still), see Nazism and Communism as being roughly equivalent to dogshit on my shoe, rarely post in RWDT, and don't especially support nationalism. Their claim is bogus.

[Scomagia]

Put an orange wig on the skull and call it "Und Don".

Not bad.

[Nakena]

Great, another person who thinks the Und Doch were Nazis. Care to provide proof of that?

The fact that everyone who uses it is sympathetic to the fascists, see the nazis as preferable to the communists, literally inhabit the right wing discussion thread, support nationalism, and so forth.

Do you ever have been to RWDT? The overhelming majority of the regulars over there aren't nazis nor fascist ideologically.