Classes on Islam should be mandatory, UK teachers say

[Ors Might]

I’ve been to a school like that. The atmosphere was just plain depressing.

Why would any sane parent send their kid to a dysfunctional school filled with useless wastrels like that? I don't understand the thinking behind that.

Sometimes you don’t have a choice. Only reason why we went there was because that was the district we lived in and at the time we didn’t have the resources to move.

[Rojava Free State]

Why would any sane parent send their kid to a dysfunctional school filled with useless wastrels like that? I don't understand the thinking behind that.

Sometimes you don’t have a choice. Only reason why we went there was because that was the district we lived in and at the time we didn’t have the resources to move.

I moved from mount clemens to Utica at age 12 because my mom didn't like how there were a lot of gangs and drugs there.

Turns out Utica has the same issues

[Nakena]

I’ve been to a school like that. The atmosphere was just plain depressing.

Why would any sane parent send their kid to a dysfunctional school filled with useless wastrels like that? I don't understand the thinking behind that.

Sometimes there aren't better things. My schools were also kinda mediocre, though we didn had crime.

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

Because the real world includes ambitious people and includes slackers. The real world includes law-abiding citizens and includes criminals. There is no sense plugging our ears, covering our eyes, and saying "la la la la la, we can't hear or see you." If anything, being exposed to the existence of such people is an education in itself.

Whether a school should be a representative sample/cross-section of its community, province, country, continent or all humanity is a grey area. But either is better than willful ignorance to the kind of people that exist in all of these.

I mean, you can send your child into a better environment where they won't be exposed to parasitic wastrels or crime and antisocial activities on a daily basis, while making sure he understands that there are people like that out there. The two aren't mutually-exclusive. It is possible to explain to a child that he's going to be sent to a school with a high-quality academic quality with a high-quality student population that will not distract him from focussing on his learning...while also understanding there are many lower-quality student populations out there that are wasting away their lives doing nothing useful. If anything, explaining to your child the latter exists is good so he knows never to be like them.

But the original context to which I was responding wasn't referring to a place as severe as Detroit. The original context was referring to some drug-dealer wannabe doing some group work project alongside a more preppy type.

When it gets as bad as Detroit, abandoning the school is not enough. By rights you should be abandoning the entire city. And then immediately lobbying to find some way to help the poor of the city get out as well.

[Rojava Free State]

I mean, you can send your child into a better environment where they won't be exposed to parasitic wastrels or crime and antisocial activities on a daily basis, while making sure he understands that there are people like that out there. The two aren't mutually-exclusive. It is possible to explain to a child that he's going to be sent to a school with a high-quality academic quality with a high-quality student population that will not distract him from focussing on his learning...while also understanding there are many lower-quality student populations out there that are wasting away their lives doing nothing useful. If anything, explaining to your child the latter exists is good so he knows never to be like them.

But the original context to which I was responding wasn't referring to a place as severe as Detroit. The original context was referring to some drug-dealer wannabe doing some group work project alongside a more preppy type.

When it gets as bad as Detroit, abandoning the school is not enough. By rights you should be abandoning the entire city. And then immediately lobbying to find some way to help the poor of the city get out as well.

Imagine a high school full of people who have flashbacks to the Yugoslav wars every time a pencil breaks. That's my high school

[Ifreann]

I dare say there's common themes.



Whoever sets the curriculum.



Not really.


It's this whole thing where the death penalty is bad. Don't worry about it.



The same people that set the curriculum.

So you admit that there's nothing meaningful measure of notability other than "because someone in authority said so?"

I'm sure there are lots of ways to measure notability. But I don't really care what they are.

---

General question: How can you be a feminist and support LGBT rights while at the same time supporting Islam?

Defending the rights of Muslims follows from the idea of equality. It's pretty simple, really.

Or do you not understand the difference between defending the rights of Muslims and advocating for the tenets of Islam?

---

I don't know why you're talking about electives. We're talking about primary education for children under the age of 12, not university classes.

---

It's honestly hilarious that you can't seem to wrap your mind around teaching children things just for the value of knowing them, without the point being to get a job. Schools aren't job factories. People aren't cogs in the economy, to be fit to a career or discarded. Happiness is not measured by looking at someone's CV.

This is like watching a cartoon robot glitch out because it can't process love or something. ERROR: MY SENSORS DO NOT DETECT CAREER OPPORTUNITY. DOES NOT COMPUTE! ERROR!

Schools in the UK don’t have electives? That feels weird.

They do in secondary education, as far as I know. Eight year old kids having electives sounds weird to me.

---

It's honestly hilarious that you can't seem to wrap your mind around teaching children things just for the value of knowing them, without the point being to get a job. Schools aren't job factories. People aren't cogs in the economy, to be fit to a career or discarded. Happiness is not measured by looking at someone's CV.

This is like watching a cartoon robot glitch out because it can't process love or something. ERROR: MY SENSORS DO NOT DETECT CAREER OPPORTUNITY. DOES NOT COMPUTE! ERROR!

I just don't like wasting the time of children on useless nonsense. "Learning about things for the sake of them" is all well and good but isn't a justification for making it a mandatory class. Classes in school do exist to provide for the educational and developmental opportunities of children, that's why they exist. I'm all for encouraging this "love of learning for the sake of it" but this is an open-ended argument to teach children everything in school, which, as you yourself have admitted, we don't have the educational resources to teach children everything there is to learn out there in the world. So we have to prioritise, and it makes sense to prioritise subjects with actual, tangible benefits on children, in terms of career or developmental opportunities.

I find it difficult to believe this argument is that hard to grasp, or why you feel the need to strawman it into "only things with career benefits matter in life" which isn't remotely the argument. Maybe because its easier to rebut a cartoonish version of your opponent's argument than his actual argument?

It's not a strawman when you are explicitly saying that schools should only focus on career opportunities, that the benefits of education should only be measured in terms of career opportunities, and that anything else is wasting time on useless nonsense. I think we should be raising future generations to be well-rounded individuals, equipped to find their own way in life. Some people will laser-focus on career like you advocate for, and that's fine for some, but not everyone will. We don't need to spend 13 years pushing everyone towards career, career, career, to the exclusion of everything else.

Like, do you flip out like this when kids play football in school? You have to know that the very large majority won't be professional sportspeople. So do you want sports removed from schools? Limit it just to the necessary exercise to stay healthy enough to keep working.

---

I just don't like wasting the time of children on useless nonsense. "Learning about things for the sake of them" is all well and good but isn't a justification for making it a mandatory class. Classes in school do exist to provide for the educational and developmental opportunities of children, that's why they exist. I'm all for encouraging this "love of learning for the sake of it" but this is an open-ended argument to teach children everything in school, which, as you yourself have admitted, we don't have the educational resources to teach children everything there is to learn out there in the world. So we have to prioritise, and it makes sense to prioritise subjects with actual, tangible benefits on children, in terms of career or developmental opportunities.

I find it difficult to believe this argument is that hard to grasp, or why you feel the need to strawman it into "only things with career benefits matter in life" which isn't remotely the argument. Maybe because its easier to rebut a cartoonish version of your opponent's argument than his actual argument?

I went to a school full of a bunch of burnout lazy sods, and nothing was more bizarre to me than seeing an algebra class with some math wiz preppy sitting right now to a guy who wants to be a drug trafficker when he grows up.

There's big money in drugs.

[Ors Might]

So you admit that there's nothing meaningful measure of notability other than "because someone in authority said so?"

I'm sure there are lots of ways to measure notability. But I don't really care what they are.

---

General question: How can you be a feminist and support LGBT rights while at the same time supporting Islam?

Defending the rights of Muslims follows from the idea of equality. It's pretty simple, really.

Or do you not understand the difference between defending the rights of Muslims and advocating for the tenets of Islam?

---

Schools in the UK don’t have electives? That feels weird.

They do in secondary education, as far as I know. Eight year old kids having electives sounds weird to me.

---

I just don't like wasting the time of children on useless nonsense. "Learning about things for the sake of them" is all well and good but isn't a justification for making it a mandatory class. Classes in school do exist to provide for the educational and developmental opportunities of children, that's why they exist. I'm all for encouraging this "love of learning for the sake of it" but this is an open-ended argument to teach children everything in school, which, as you yourself have admitted, we don't have the educational resources to teach children everything there is to learn out there in the world. So we have to prioritise, and it makes sense to prioritise subjects with actual, tangible benefits on children, in terms of career or developmental opportunities.

I find it difficult to believe this argument is that hard to grasp, or why you feel the need to strawman it into "only things with career benefits matter in life" which isn't remotely the argument. Maybe because its easier to rebut a cartoonish version of your opponent's argument than his actual argument?

It's not a strawman when you are explicitly saying that schools should only focus on career opportunities, that the benefits of education should only be measured in terms of career opportunities, and that anything else is wasting time on useless nonsense. I think we should be raising future generations to be well-rounded individuals, equipped to find their own way in life. Some people will laser-focus on career like you advocate for, and that's fine for some, but not everyone will. We don't need to spend 13 years pushing everyone towards career, career, career, to the exclusion of everything else.

Like, do you flip out like this when kids play football in school? You have to know that the very large majority won't be professional sportspeople. So do you want sports removed from schools? Limit it just to the necessary exercise to stay healthy enough to keep working.

---

I went to a school full of a bunch of burnout lazy sods, and nothing was more bizarre to me than seeing an algebra class with some math wiz preppy sitting right now to a guy who wants to be a drug trafficker when he grows up.

There's big money in drugs.

Ah, my mistake. For whatever reason I was thinking that this was taking place in like middle school or something. I’m not sure how in depth into the topic you can go when you only have an hour a week, a lot of religions to cover, and your students are eight, though. If the goal is to teach tolerance and respect for your fellow man, wouldn’t it be more effective in this instance to just do that straightforwardly?

[Rojava Free State]

I myself misread this too. Clearly them being elementary school kids changes things a bit

[Ifreann]

I’ve been to a school like that. The atmosphere was just plain depressing.

Why would any sane parent send their kid to a dysfunctional school filled with useless wastrels like that? I don't understand the thinking behind that.

Yeah, what kind of terrible child wants to grow up to be wealthy entrepreneur? Eww.

[Rojava Free State]

Why would any sane parent send their kid to a dysfunctional school filled with useless wastrels like that? I don't understand the thinking behind that.

Yeah, what kind of terrible child wants to grow up to be wealthy entrepreneur? Eww.

Me: so jimmy do you wanna be an engineer when you grow up?
Jimmy: nah dad, I wanna be el chapo
Me: ...good choice

[Nakena]

But the original context to which I was responding wasn't referring to a place as severe as Detroit. The original context was referring to some drug-dealer wannabe doing some group work project alongside a more preppy type.

When it gets as bad as Detroit, abandoning the school is not enough. By rights you should be abandoning the entire city. And then immediately lobbying to find some way to help the poor of the city get out as well.

Imagine a high school full of people who have flashbacks to the Yugoslav wars every time a pencil breaks. That's my high school

Yugoslav Wars? How so?

[Gormwood]

General question: How can you be a feminist and support LGBT rights while at the same time supporting Islam?

And there we go with the identity politics.

As if Hindus do so much better with women and LGBTs.

[Greater Cesnica]

And there we go with the identity politics.

As if Hindus do so much better with women and LGBTs.

From what I've seen, Hindus have more positive views of LGBT people than Muslims.

[Ors Might]

And there we go with the identity politics.

As if Hindus do so much better with women and LGBTs.

We can criticize them too, if you want. Heck, you can even throw in a half assed defense of religious bigotry.

[Purgatio]

I just don't like wasting the time of children on useless nonsense. "Learning about things for the sake of them" is all well and good but isn't a justification for making it a mandatory class. Classes in school do exist to provide for the educational and developmental opportunities of children, that's why they exist. I'm all for encouraging this "love of learning for the sake of it" but this is an open-ended argument to teach children everything in school, which, as you yourself have admitted, we don't have the educational resources to teach children everything there is to learn out there in the world. So we have to prioritise, and it makes sense to prioritise subjects with actual, tangible benefits on children, in terms of career or developmental opportunities.

I find it difficult to believe this argument is that hard to grasp, or why you feel the need to strawman it into "only things with career benefits matter in life" which isn't remotely the argument. Maybe because its easier to rebut a cartoonish version of your opponent's argument than his actual argument?

It's not a strawman when you are explicitly saying that schools should only focus on career opportunities, that the benefits of education should only be measured in terms of career opportunities, and that anything else is wasting time on useless nonsense. I think we should be raising future generations to be well-rounded individuals, equipped to find their own way in life. Some people will laser-focus on career like you advocate for, and that's fine for some, but not everyone will. We don't need to spend 13 years pushing everyone towards career, career, career, to the exclusion of everything else.

Like, do you flip out like this when kids play football in school? You have to know that the very large majority won't be professional sportspeople. So do you want sports removed from schools? Limit it just to the necessary exercise to stay healthy enough to keep working.

I never said getting a job was the only purpose of schools, I said that the purpose of educational facilities is to promote the educational and developmental opportunities for children, which includes career opportunities but also other direct, tangible benefits. Football has a direct, tangible benefit, it encourages collaboration and teamwork, physical fitness in a fun and recreational/entertaining setting. But I don't see the direct, tangible benefit of having classes on Islam, and no one here has provided a good argument on why such classes are beneficial for the development of children beyond "Muslims exist" which is a bad argument since lots of different communities exist and we don't have the time to teach about every single religion, every single culture, every single language out there in the world. All you have to do is advance a logically-coherent case on why Islam classes advance the development of children.

[Purgatio]

And there we go with the identity politics.

As if Hindus do so much better with women and LGBTs.

Why is it mutually-exclusive? Why can't you believe it is incoherent for the LGBT community and feminists to idolise both Islam and Hinduism?

[Greater Cesnica]

As if Hindus do so much better with women and LGBTs.

Why is it mutually-exclusive? Why can't you believe it is incoherent for the LGBT community and feminists to idolise both Islam and Hinduism?

https://youtu.be/pq5vwczXleA?t=10

Stockholm Syndrome much?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

As if Hindus do so much better with women and LGBTs.

From what I've seen, Hindus have more positive views of LGBT people than Muslims.

Depends on who you ask under the umbrella that is Hinduism. Some have positive views while others do not.

[Greater Cesnica]

From what I've seen, Hindus have more positive views of LGBT people than Muslims.

Depends on who you ask under the umbrella that is Hinduism. Some have positive views while others do not.

There is no explicit punishment or basis for discrimination against LGBT people in Hinduism.

[Nakena]

Why is it mutually-exclusive? Why can't you believe it is incoherent for the LGBT community and feminists to idolise both Islam and Hinduism?

https://youtu.be/pq5vwczXleA?t=10

Stockholm Syndrome much?

Where is national guard when you need them?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Depends on who you ask under the umbrella that is Hinduism. Some have positive views while others do not.

There is no explicit punishment or basis for discrimination against LGBT people in Hinduism.

Read this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduis ... GBT_topics, so you get what I mean.

[Greater Cesnica]

There is no explicit punishment or basis for discrimination against LGBT people in Hinduism.

Read this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduis ... GBT_topics, so you get what I mean.

Yes there is both negative and positive attitudes. That is apparent, especially in the mob violence that sometimes erupts in India against LGBT people. But to compare it to the treatment of LGBT people by Muslims is not accurate.

[The Hindustani State]

And there we go with the identity politics.

As if Hindus do so much better with women and LGBTs.

Hinduism garuntees equal rights for women, in fact, one fo the first female heads of government in Asia, Indira Gandhi, was a Hindu nationalist. As for LGBT, The vedas recognize the existence of a third gender and transgenderism, this is why the people who support legalization of homosexual marriage in India are largely Hindus, while the opposition is Muslim. Hinduism does better with these things than Islam by a looooooooooong shot

[Ifreann]

It's not a strawman when you are explicitly saying that schools should only focus on career opportunities, that the benefits of education should only be measured in terms of career opportunities, and that anything else is wasting time on useless nonsense. I think we should be raising future generations to be well-rounded individuals, equipped to find their own way in life. Some people will laser-focus on career like you advocate for, and that's fine for some, but not everyone will. We don't need to spend 13 years pushing everyone towards career, career, career, to the exclusion of everything else.

Like, do you flip out like this when kids play football in school? You have to know that the very large majority won't be professional sportspeople. So do you want sports removed from schools? Limit it just to the necessary exercise to stay healthy enough to keep working.

I never said getting a job was the only purpose of schools, I said that the purpose of educational facilities is to promote the educational and developmental opportunities for children, which includes career opportunities but also other direct, tangible benefits. Football has a direct, tangible benefit, it encourages collaboration and teamwork, physical fitness in a fun and recreational/entertaining setting. But I don't see the direct, tangible benefit of having classes on Islam, and no one here has provided a good argument on why such classes are beneficial for the development of children beyond "Muslims exist" which is a bad argument since lots of different communities exist and we don't have the time to teach about every single religion, every single culture, every single language out there in the world.

You know that Islam is one of the biggest religions in the world, yeah? And that there are several Islamic countries? Islam isn't some fringe religion with only 100 adherents.

All you have to do is advance a logically-coherent case on why Islam classes advance the development of children.

I think it's self-evident that having a greater understanding of the world in which one lives constitutes an advance in one's development.

[Cauralia]

Hell no.

If this was a thing I'd walk out of every Islam class until they stop such things as this.

If I wanted to learn about Islam I'd do it in my own time.

Time taken up to learn about Islam could be used for a skill that is actually useful such as maths, science and English - the core subjects.