Classes on Islam should be mandatory, UK teachers say

[Rojava Free State]

General question: How can you be a feminist and support LGBT rights while at the same time supporting Islam?

And there we go with the identity politics.

That isn't an answer

[Ifreann]

You're right, I'm not valuing education strictly in terms of future educational or career opportunities. Getting a job isn't the be all and end all of life. Children have to live in the world. They will be sharing that world with Muslims. It will benefit them to understand what Muslims believe.

Maybe not absolutely everything. Just the highlights.

Absolutely. Scientology is a dangerous scam, kids need to be taught how to keep out of the clutches of shit like that. Though come to think of it, a class explicitly about Scientology would probably just lead to a load of lawsuits.

Who?

Maybe in American schools.

Sure.

That'd be cool, but there's only so many hours in the day, so schools should probably prioritise the major world religions, and maybe some minor ones.

Those are good too, but you can't expect kids to spend eight hours a day on long division.

---

I'm sure it could be fit in to some other subject. It's not like veganism is massively complex.

The lack of complexity is why I can’t really justify it being an elective. A club would be better suited to it. At most, a couple lessons.

I don't know why you're talking about electives. We're talking about primary education for children under the age of 12, not university classes.

---

You're right, I'm not valuing education strictly in terms of future educational or career opportunities. Getting a job isn't the be all and end all of life. Children have to live in the world. They will be sharing that world with Muslims. It will benefit them to understand what Muslims believe.

Maybe not absolutely everything. Just the highlights.

Absolutely. Scientology is a dangerous scam, kids need to be taught how to keep out of the clutches of shit like that. Though come to think of it, a class explicitly about Scientology would probably just lead to a load of lawsuits.

Who?

Maybe in American schools.

Sure.

That'd be cool, but there's only so many hours in the day, so schools should probably prioritise the major world religions, and maybe some minor ones.

Those are good too, but you can't expect kids to spend eight hours a day on long division.

---

I'm sure it could be fit in to some other subject. It's not like veganism is massively complex.

So when you say "we should focus on major world religions", you are acknowledging that 1) schools have a limited number of resources, both in terms of money, time and labour (ie teachers), and therefore we have to prioritise those resources in the direction of classes based on educational value and 2) you have asserted that "major world religions" have an educational value that demands re-diverting resources away from languages, history, mathematics or science, the kind of subjects that actually help you excel in higher education or professional degrees.

What justification could you possibly have for diverting resources towards classes on Islam beyond your vague suggestion that children will be "sharing that world with Muslims"? Why do children need to learn about Islam in order to get along with Muslims? I don't know all the central tenets of Hinduism, Buddhism and Taoism and yet my school had numerous students from these religions, and those who were not, and funnily enough we didn't get into fights or hurt each other just because we didn't have "Buddhism classes" or "Taoism classes". Show me the tangible proof that classes on Islam actually aid the educational and developmental opportunities of children, that justifies the diversion of limited educational resources that could have otherwise gone to subjects with actual benefits to a child's future educational and career developmental opportunities.

It's honestly hilarious that you can't seem to wrap your mind around teaching children things just for the value of knowing them, without the point being to get a job. Schools aren't job factories. People aren't cogs in the economy, to be fit to a career or discarded. Happiness is not measured by looking at someone's CV.

This is like watching a cartoon robot glitch out because it can't process love or something. ERROR: MY SENSORS DO NOT DETECT CAREER OPPORTUNITY. DOES NOT COMPUTE! ERROR!

[Vassenor]

And there we go with the identity politics.

That isn't an answer

Nor is trying to shut down a debate by saying that "You are X so you are required to think Y because I said so".

[Ors Might]

The lack of complexity is why I can’t really justify it being an elective. A club would be better suited to it. At most, a couple lessons.

I don't know why you're talking about electives. We're talking about primary education for children under the age of 12, not university classes.

---

So when you say "we should focus on major world religions", you are acknowledging that 1) schools have a limited number of resources, both in terms of money, time and labour (ie teachers), and therefore we have to prioritise those resources in the direction of classes based on educational value and 2) you have asserted that "major world religions" have an educational value that demands re-diverting resources away from languages, history, mathematics or science, the kind of subjects that actually help you excel in higher education or professional degrees.

What justification could you possibly have for diverting resources towards classes on Islam beyond your vague suggestion that children will be "sharing that world with Muslims"? Why do children need to learn about Islam in order to get along with Muslims? I don't know all the central tenets of Hinduism, Buddhism and Taoism and yet my school had numerous students from these religions, and those who were not, and funnily enough we didn't get into fights or hurt each other just because we didn't have "Buddhism classes" or "Taoism classes". Show me the tangible proof that classes on Islam actually aid the educational and developmental opportunities of children, that justifies the diversion of limited educational resources that could have otherwise gone to subjects with actual benefits to a child's future educational and career developmental opportunities.

It's honestly hilarious that you can't seem to wrap your mind around teaching children things just for the value of knowing them, without the point being to get a job. Schools aren't job factories. People aren't cogs in the economy, to be fit to a career or discarded. Happiness is not measured by looking at someone's CV.

This is like watching a cartoon robot glitch out because it can't process love or something. ERROR: MY SENSORS DO NOT DETECT CAREER OPPORTUNITY. DOES NOT COMPUTE! ERROR!

Schools in the UK don’t have electives? That feels weird.

[Ors Might]

That isn't an answer

Nor is trying to shut down a debate by saying that "You are X so you are required to think Y because I said so".

Generally, its odd for feminists and LGBT allies to defend ideologies that are very much not those things.

[Purgatio]

So when you say "we should focus on major world religions", you are acknowledging that 1) schools have a limited number of resources, both in terms of money, time and labour (ie teachers), and therefore we have to prioritise those resources in the direction of classes based on educational value and 2) you have asserted that "major world religions" have an educational value that demands re-diverting resources away from languages, history, mathematics or science, the kind of subjects that actually help you excel in higher education or professional degrees.

What justification could you possibly have for diverting resources towards classes on Islam beyond your vague suggestion that children will be "sharing that world with Muslims"? Why do children need to learn about Islam in order to get along with Muslims? I don't know all the central tenets of Hinduism, Buddhism and Taoism and yet my school had numerous students from these religions, and those who were not, and funnily enough we didn't get into fights or hurt each other just because we didn't have "Buddhism classes" or "Taoism classes". Show me the tangible proof that classes on Islam actually aid the educational and developmental opportunities of children, that justifies the diversion of limited educational resources that could have otherwise gone to subjects with actual benefits to a child's future educational and career developmental opportunities.

It's honestly hilarious that you can't seem to wrap your mind around teaching children things just for the value of knowing them, without the point being to get a job. Schools aren't job factories. People aren't cogs in the economy, to be fit to a career or discarded. Happiness is not measured by looking at someone's CV.

This is like watching a cartoon robot glitch out because it can't process love or something. ERROR: MY SENSORS DO NOT DETECT CAREER OPPORTUNITY. DOES NOT COMPUTE! ERROR!

I just don't like wasting the time of children on useless nonsense. "Learning about things for the sake of them" is all well and good but isn't a justification for making it a mandatory class. Classes in school do exist to provide for the educational and developmental opportunities of children, that's why they exist. I'm all for encouraging this "love of learning for the sake of it" but this is an open-ended argument to teach children everything in school, which, as you yourself have admitted, we don't have the educational resources to teach children everything there is to learn out there in the world. So we have to prioritise, and it makes sense to prioritise subjects with actual, tangible benefits on children, in terms of career or developmental opportunities.

I find it difficult to believe this argument is that hard to grasp, or why you feel the need to strawman it into "only things with career benefits matter in life" which isn't remotely the argument. Maybe because its easier to rebut a cartoonish version of your opponent's argument than his actual argument?

[Rojava Free State]

That isn't an answer

Nor is trying to shut down a debate by saying that "You are X so you are required to think Y because I said so".

That isn't what's happening at all. The question is how can you support gay rights while at the same time supporting a belief system that think gays shouldn't even be allowed to live? It's like me saying I'm a Zionist but I'm a nazi. it doesn't make any sense whatsoever

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

People acting like spending one hour a week learning about Religion will somehow wipe all the maths and science out of their brains.

Well, all those antivaxxers and creationists do come from somewhere...

Antivaxxers aren't motivated by religion.



Look at this map. Oregon is in the dark red. Louisiana is light peach. Tornado alley is notoriously religious, yet less anti-vax than its surroundings.

I'd blame religion for a lot of things, but the anti-vaccine movement isn't one of them, despite the more religious states electing an anti-vaccine President.

Hell, even creationism might have an anthropocentric element to it. (Or maybe some opponents of evolutionary psychology are playing the long game?)

[Purgatio]

That isn't an answer

Nor is trying to shut down a debate by saying that "You are X so you are required to think Y because I said so".

I genuinely don't understand why you feel the need to strawman his argument into "you are X so you must believe Y". When liberals point out how weird it is for gay or trans people to support Trump despite the administration's anti-LGBT policies, you guys aren't saying "if you are gay/trans you must oppose Trump", you are not telling people to think anything, just pointing out an internal logical inconsistency. LGBT people and feminists who love Islam suffer from a much bigger logical inconsistency that the poster was rightly pointing out.

[Rojava Free State]

It's honestly hilarious that you can't seem to wrap your mind around teaching children things just for the value of knowing them, without the point being to get a job. Schools aren't job factories. People aren't cogs in the economy, to be fit to a career or discarded. Happiness is not measured by looking at someone's CV.

This is like watching a cartoon robot glitch out because it can't process love or something. ERROR: MY SENSORS DO NOT DETECT CAREER OPPORTUNITY. DOES NOT COMPUTE! ERROR!

I just don't like wasting the time of children on useless nonsense. "Learning about things for the sake of them" is all well and good but isn't a justification for making it a mandatory class. Classes in school do exist to provide for the educational and developmental opportunities of children, that's why they exist. I'm all for encouraging this "love of learning for the sake of it" but this is an open-ended argument to teach children everything in school, which, as you yourself have admitted, we don't have the educational resources to teach children everything there is to learn out there in the world. So we have to prioritise, and it makes sense to prioritise subjects with actual, tangible benefits on children, in terms of career or developmental opportunities.

I find it difficult to believe this argument is that hard to grasp, or why you feel the need to strawman it into "only things with career benefits matter in life" which isn't remotely the argument. Maybe because its easier to rebut a cartoonish version of your opponent's argument than his actual argument?

I went to a school full of a bunch of burnout lazy sods, and nothing was more bizarre to me than seeing an algebra class with some math wiz preppy sitting right now to a guy who wants to be a drug trafficker when he grows up.

[Rojava Free State]

Well, all those antivaxxers and creationists do come from somewhere...

Antivaxxers aren't motivated by religion.



Look at this map. Oregon is in the dark red. Louisiana is light peach. Tornado alley is notoriously religious, yet less anti-vax than its surroundings.

I'd blame religion for a lot of things, but the anti-vaccine movement isn't one of them, despite the more religious states electing an anti-vaccine President.

Hell, even creationism might have an anthropocentric element to it. (Or maybe some opponents of evolutionary psychology are playing the long game?)

A lot of anti vaxxers are environmentalists and/or anarchists and see vaccines as a plague of human creation. They don't trust the government when it says the vaccines are safe even though they are indeed safe and few people are harmed by getting a flu shot

[Nakena]

The lack of complexity is why I can’t really justify it being an elective. A club would be better suited to it. At most, a couple lessons.

I don't know why you're talking about electives. We're talking about primary education for children under the age of 12, not university classes.

---

So when you say "we should focus on major world religions", you are acknowledging that 1) schools have a limited number of resources, both in terms of money, time and labour (ie teachers), and therefore we have to prioritise those resources in the direction of classes based on educational value and 2) you have asserted that "major world religions" have an educational value that demands re-diverting resources away from languages, history, mathematics or science, the kind of subjects that actually help you excel in higher education or professional degrees.

What justification could you possibly have for diverting resources towards classes on Islam beyond your vague suggestion that children will be "sharing that world with Muslims"? Why do children need to learn about Islam in order to get along with Muslims? I don't know all the central tenets of Hinduism, Buddhism and Taoism and yet my school had numerous students from these religions, and those who were not, and funnily enough we didn't get into fights or hurt each other just because we didn't have "Buddhism classes" or "Taoism classes". Show me the tangible proof that classes on Islam actually aid the educational and developmental opportunities of children, that justifies the diversion of limited educational resources that could have otherwise gone to subjects with actual benefits to a child's future educational and career developmental opportunities.

It's honestly hilarious that you can't seem to wrap your mind around teaching children things just for the value of knowing them, without the point being to get a job. Schools aren't job factories. People aren't cogs in the economy, to be fit to a career or discarded. Happiness is not measured by looking at someone's CV.

This is like watching a cartoon robot glitch out because it can't process love or something. ERROR: MY SENSORS DO NOT DETECT CAREER OPPORTUNITY. DOES NOT COMPUTE! ERROR!

Meet the robot man.

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

That isn't an answer

Nor is trying to shut down a debate by saying that "You are X so you are required to think Y because I said so".

If there were ever any doubt about how homophobic Islam is, take a look at the evasiveness of those who say otherwise.

[Purgatio]

I just don't like wasting the time of children on useless nonsense. "Learning about things for the sake of them" is all well and good but isn't a justification for making it a mandatory class. Classes in school do exist to provide for the educational and developmental opportunities of children, that's why they exist. I'm all for encouraging this "love of learning for the sake of it" but this is an open-ended argument to teach children everything in school, which, as you yourself have admitted, we don't have the educational resources to teach children everything there is to learn out there in the world. So we have to prioritise, and it makes sense to prioritise subjects with actual, tangible benefits on children, in terms of career or developmental opportunities.

I find it difficult to believe this argument is that hard to grasp, or why you feel the need to strawman it into "only things with career benefits matter in life" which isn't remotely the argument. Maybe because its easier to rebut a cartoonish version of your opponent's argument than his actual argument?

I went to a school full of a bunch of burnout lazy sods, and nothing was more bizarre to me than seeing an algebra class with some math wiz preppy sitting right now to a guy who wants to be a drug trafficker when he grows up.

...what kind of messed up school did you go to? I've literally never gone to a school that dysfunctional. A student wanting to become a drug trafficker? Unbelievable.

[Ors Might]

I went to a school full of a bunch of burnout lazy sods, and nothing was more bizarre to me than seeing an algebra class with some math wiz preppy sitting right now to a guy who wants to be a drug trafficker when he grows up.

...what kind of messed up school did you go to? I've literally never gone to a school that dysfunctional. A student wanting to become a drug trafficker? Unbelievable.

I’ve been to a school like that. The atmosphere was just plain depressing.

[Purgatio]

...what kind of messed up school did you go to? I've literally never gone to a school that dysfunctional. A student wanting to become a drug trafficker? Unbelievable.

I’ve been to a school like that. The atmosphere was just plain depressing.

Why would any sane parent send their kid to a dysfunctional school filled with useless wastrels like that? I don't understand the thinking behind that.

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

Antivaxxers aren't motivated by religion.



Look at this map. Oregon is in the dark red. Louisiana is light peach. Tornado alley is notoriously religious, yet less anti-vax than its surroundings.

I'd blame religion for a lot of things, but the anti-vaccine movement isn't one of them, despite the more religious states electing an anti-vaccine President.

Hell, even creationism might have an anthropocentric element to it. (Or maybe some opponents of evolutionary psychology are playing the long game?)

A lot of anti vaxxers are environmentalists and/or anarchists and see vaccines as a plague of human creation. They don't trust the government when it says the vaccines are safe even though they are indeed safe and few people are harmed by getting a flu shot

I'd say it's more so big pharma that they don't trust than the government. Not unreasonably so, but they need to realize that a stopped clock is right twice a day and big pharma's still going to be making big bucks on the anti-depressants they sell to parents whose kids die of measles, mumps, and rubella.

But yeah, that kind of distrust of big pharma's more prominent amongst the left than the right, and therefore, the fraction of it who handle it the wrong way being small nonetheless, it's still primarily that of the left. But the map proves it, while speculation does not.

Of course, we could've stopped this movement in its tracks if we hadn't let the private sector touch the medical sciences at all.

[Rojava Free State]

I went to a school full of a bunch of burnout lazy sods, and nothing was more bizarre to me than seeing an algebra class with some math wiz preppy sitting right now to a guy who wants to be a drug trafficker when he grows up.

...what kind of messed up school did you go to? I've literally never gone to a school that dysfunctional. A student wanting to become a drug trafficker? Unbelievable.

Utica Community Schools. "The best school in michigan" according to themselves. In reality it's a toxic two story town mix of impoverished immigrants, rednecks, spoiled rich kids and a small middle class caught in the middle of the fray. It centers around the town of utica, where this happened:

https://www.macombdaily.com/news/copsco ... 99bda.html

And this: https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/man ... police-say

And this too: https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/vid ... in-detroit

And this and many more things: https://www.tremcoemergencyproducts.com ... brand-new/

[Purgatio]

...what kind of messed up school did you go to? I've literally never gone to a school that dysfunctional. A student wanting to become a drug trafficker? Unbelievable.

Utica Community Schools. "The best school in michigan" according to themselves. In reality it's a toxic two story town mix of impoverished immigrants, rednecks, spoiled rich kids and a small middle class caught in the middle of the fray. It centers around the town of utica, where this happened:

https://www.macombdaily.com/news/copsco ... 99bda.html

And this: https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/man ... police-say

And this too: https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/vid ... in-detroit

And this and many more things: https://www.tremcoemergencyproducts.com ... brand-new/

So...Detroit is a crime-ridden shithole town sprawling with antisocial activities and filled with burnout losers, lazy kids wasting away their lives and people with no futures? Good to know, never going there then.

[Rojava Free State]

A lot of anti vaxxers are environmentalists and/or anarchists and see vaccines as a plague of human creation. They don't trust the government when it says the vaccines are safe even though they are indeed safe and few people are harmed by getting a flu shot

I'd say it's more so big pharma that they don't trust than the government. Not unreasonably so, but they need to realize that a stopped clock is right twice a day and big pharma's still going to be making big bucks on the anti-depressants they sell to parents whose kids die of measles, mumps, and rubella.

But yeah, that kind of distrust of big pharma's more prominent amongst the left than the right, and therefore, the fraction of it who handle it the wrong way being small nonetheless, it's still primarily that of the left. But the map proves it, while speculation does not.

Of course, we could've stopped this movement in its tracks if we hadn't let the private sector touch the medical sciences at all.

Now no one knows what's even real anymore. And they call this the information age

More like the misinformation age

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

I’ve been to a school like that. The atmosphere was just plain depressing.

Why would any sane parent send their kid to a dysfunctional school filled with useless wastrels like that? I don't understand the thinking behind that.

Because the real world includes ambitious people and includes slackers. The real world includes law-abiding citizens and includes criminals. There is no sense plugging our ears, covering our eyes, and saying "la la la la la, we can't hear or see you." If anything, being exposed to the existence of such people is an education in itself.

Whether a school should be a representative sample/cross-section of its community, province, country, continent or all humanity is a grey area. But either is better than willful ignorance to the kind of people that exist in all of these.

[Rojava Free State]

Utica Community Schools. "The best school in michigan" according to themselves. In reality it's a toxic two story town mix of impoverished immigrants, rednecks, spoiled rich kids and a small middle class caught in the middle of the fray. It centers around the town of utica, where this happened:

https://www.macombdaily.com/news/copsco ... 99bda.html

And this: https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/man ... police-say

And this too: https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/vid ... in-detroit

And this and many more things: https://www.tremcoemergencyproducts.com ... brand-new/

So...Detroit is a crime-ridden shithole town sprawling with antisocial activities and filled with burnout losers, lazy kids wasting away their lives and people with no futures? Good to know, never going there then.

A shithole city with some shithole suburbs

[Rojava Free State]

I’ve been to a school like that. The atmosphere was just plain depressing.

Why would any sane parent send their kid to a dysfunctional school filled with useless wastrels like that? I don't understand the thinking behind that.

Half the people in my area send their kids either to Catholic schools or Lutheran North high school if they can. Unfortunately when you're poor, you can't afford to.

Also there's always that token left wing white family that doesn't want to be racist and sends their kid to the public school for "tolerance reasons." Either the kid doesn't survive or he learns to innovate and becomes the king of one of the Albanian tribes. We had this one guy who was clearly a white dude but he somehow found his way into a click of Arabs and became "Al-omari." doN't ask me how. BY the way I'm not racist, I'm half Arab myself and it's a joke

[Purgatio]

Why would any sane parent send their kid to a dysfunctional school filled with useless wastrels like that? I don't understand the thinking behind that.

Because the real world includes ambitious people and includes slackers. The real world includes law-abiding citizens and includes criminals. There is no sense plugging our ears, covering our eyes, and saying "la la la la la, we can't hear or see you." If anything, being exposed to the existence of such people is an education in itself.

Whether a school should be a representative sample/cross-section of its community, province, country, continent or all humanity is a grey area. But either is better than willful ignorance to the kind of people that exist in all of these.

I mean, you can send your child into a better environment where they won't be exposed to parasitic wastrels or crime and antisocial activities on a daily basis, while making sure he understands that there are people like that out there. The two aren't mutually-exclusive. It is possible to explain to a child that he's going to be sent to a school with a high-quality academic quality with a high-quality student population that will not distract him from focussing on his learning...while also understanding there are many lower-quality student populations out there that are wasting away their lives doing nothing useful. If anything, explaining to your child the latter exists is good so he knows never to be like them.

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

Utica Community Schools. "The best school in michigan" according to themselves. In reality it's a toxic two story town mix of impoverished immigrants, rednecks, spoiled rich kids and a small middle class caught in the middle of the fray. It centers around the town of utica, where this happened:

https://www.macombdaily.com/news/copsco ... 99bda.html

And this: https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/man ... police-say

And this too: https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/vid ... in-detroit

And this and many more things: https://www.tremcoemergencyproducts.com ... brand-new/

So...Detroit is a crime-ridden shithole town sprawling with antisocial activities and filled with burnout losers, lazy kids wasting away their lives and people with no futures? Good to know, never going there then.

Take it up with the idiots who tried to bail out the auto industry instead of putting that money toward relocating ordinary citizens to towns that might actually have a future.