Classes on Islam should be mandatory, UK teachers say

[Gormwood]

She grew up to be a very powerful woman and important source on him. She lead what accidentally turned into a rebellion against his son in law though.

Not sure how this debunks the whole rape thing.

Modern morality imposed on the distant past.

[Al Mumtahanah]

She grew up to be a very powerful woman and important source on him. She lead what accidentally turned into a rebellion against his son in law though.

Not sure how this debunks the whole rape thing.

He himself was a soldier as a child. Very difficult to see it that way in a culture where puberty is considered the age of majority.

[Inkopolitia]

Dude, it's still wrong. You may say that it's perfectly A-OK because it was a thousand or so years ago, but the world is more advanced. We can now tell what's wrong and what is not wrong. We know for a fact that torturing animals is wrong, but that was not the truth for the people in the past. We can now tell that pedophiles are bad people, but that was not the truth for the people in the past. However, as people of this modern day and age, we know that both of those things are wrong.

By the way, sorry if I express myself in a confusing manner, English isn't my first language

You're judging the past by modern standards and by extention judging all modern Muslims as culpable.

Way to think I am a islamophobic, but I couldn't care less about religion as a whole, as long as it isn't forced in anyone. But yes, I am judging the past by modern standards because we're more advanced now, and as I have said like twice, we can know what is wrong and what is not wrong.

Dude, it's still wrong. You may say that it's perfectly A-OK because it was a thousand or so years ago, but the world is more advanced. We can now tell what's wrong and what is not wrong. We know for a fact that torturing animals is wrong, but that was not the truth for the people in the past. We can now tell that pedophiles are bad people, but that was not the truth for the people in the past. However, as people of this modern day and age, we know that both of those things are wrong.

By the way, sorry if I express myself in a confusing manner, English isn't my first language

Torturing animals was always wrong in Islam, bulllfight or bearbaiting were always haram.

That's good and all, and I support that people who torture animals and not giving them a fast death (Should they be hunted to be eaten) should go to jail (And not get whipped to death, mind you).

I only used the torturing animals and pedophiles scenarios because, well, they're examples. They're examples on what people in the past thought of as perfectly acceptable but now people in 2019 know (for the most part) that it's wrong.

[Al Mumtahanah]

That's right, if he was really a child rapist why would he only have raped the one child?

Did he ? Or did he rape thousands during campaigns ?

He certainly didn't

[Inkopolitia]

Did he ? Or did he rape thousands during campaigns ?

He certainly didn't

Off topic, but if you don't mind, can you add a poll in the post so everyone can say their opinions in a quick manner?

[Genivaria]

Not sure how this debunks the whole rape thing.

He himself was a soldier as a child. Very difficult to see it that way in a culture where puberty is considered the age of majority.

So I just want to be clear I understand what you're saying, you're using cultural relativism to justify something when the person who do the thing is believed to be an objective paragon of virtue?
Is that right?

Either Muhammad is a flawed man of his time like any other or he's an objective paragon of morality in which case time and place are irrelevant.
You can't have it both ways.

[The Alma Mater]

Did he ? Or did he rape thousands during campaigns ?

He certainly didn't

That's what the muslims say, yes. The people he subjugated had different tales which are less flattering.
Of course, which tales are true and which are not is something we will never know.

[Des-Bal]

He himself was a soldier as a child. Very difficult to see it that way in a culture where puberty is considered the age of majority.

So we can agree anyone who behaved as muhammed did deserves to be imprisoned?

[Al Mumtahanah]

You're judging the past by modern standards and by extention judging all modern Muslims as culpable.

And Islam is judging the world by the standards of the past. I don't view that as positive, I don't think kids need to be exposed to it, I certainly don't think they should be denied the opportunity to opt out.

Muslims who consider Urf (cultural norms) a principle in Shariaa accepted a certain degree in changes in culture, for example a different conception of adulthood, which has actually been used to issue fatawa against child brides. Although this cuts both ways since Urf is what the Taliban invokes to give women fewer rights than Islam prescribes.

[Bienenhalde]

I think UK religious education should focus on Christianity since Britain is and historically has been a predominantly Christian nation. But teaching about world religions in general is a reasonable as a supplement or as an alternative for students whose parents object.

[Inkopolitia]

And Islam is judging the world by the standards of the past. I don't view that as positive, I don't think kids need to be exposed to it, I certainly don't think they should be denied the opportunity to opt out.

Muslims who consider Urf (cultural norms) a principle in Shariaa accepted a certain degree in changes in culture, for example a different conception of adulthood, which has actually been used to issue fatawa against child brides. Although this cuts both ways since Urf is what the Taliban invokes to give women fewer rights than Islam prescribes.

Forgive me if this question is stupid because i'm already deep in this "debate", but what are Islam's views on women, according to the more "Progressive" branch? (I've heard there are different variations/branches of Islam)

[Ors Might]

Is RE in the UK its own class?

Yes it is.

If it is, wouldn’t it make more sense for it to be an elective going over the history and beliefs of religions while religious tolerance is promoted in the same way you promote not bullying other kids for being different? I’d imagine those two would have some overlap.

A lot less students would take it if it were elective. At a guesstimate the classes would lose 75%+ of their students.

And what of value would be lost if religious tolerance is still being encouraged and taught?

[Al Mumtahanah]

He certainly didn't

That's what the muslims say, yes. The people he subjugated had different tales which are less flattering.
Of course, which tales are true and which are not is something we will never know.

Anyone with any grasp of early Islam would know Muslims wouldn't say, "Gee, this looks bad, we should hide it," they would say, "He did it, so we record and emulate it." The earliest strong hadith collection includes several Ahadith about a baby peeing on Muhammad while he's holding him, multiple accounts are included just so Muslims know what to do when that happens.

[Kowani]

He himself was a soldier as a child. Very difficult to see it that way in a culture where puberty is considered the age of majority.

So I just want to be clear I understand what you're saying, you're using cultural relativism to justify something when the person who do the thing is believed to be an objective paragon of virtue?
Is that right?

Either Muhammad is a flawed man of his time like any other or he's an objective paragon of morality in which case time and place are irrelevant.
You can't have it both ways.

I love this post.

[Imbalistan]

I think UK religious education should focus on Christianity since Britain is and historically has been a predominantly Christian nation. But teaching about world religions in general is a reasonable as a supplement or as an alternative for students whose parents object.

Yes please!

[Inkopolitia]

That's what the muslims say, yes. The people he subjugated had different tales which are less flattering.
Of course, which tales are true and which are not is something we will never know.

Anyone with any grasp of early Islam would know Muslims wouldn't say, "Gee, this looks bad, we should hide it," they would say, "He did it, so we record and emulate it." The earliest strong hadith collection includes several Ahadith about a baby peeing on Muhammad while he's holding him, multiple accounts are included just so Muslims know what to do when that happens.

Why do I find this funny, lol

[Ors Might]

Dude, it's still wrong. You may say that it's perfectly A-OK because it was a thousand or so years ago, but the world is more advanced. We can now tell what's wrong and what is not wrong. We know for a fact that torturing animals is wrong, but that was not the truth for the people in the past. We can now tell that pedophiles are bad people, but that was not the truth for the people in the past. However, as people of this modern day and age, we know that both of those things are wrong.

By the way, sorry if I express myself in a confusing manner, English isn't my first language

You're judging the past by modern standards and by extention judging all modern Muslims as culpable.

Why wouldn’t we judge the past wrong by modern standards? What standards do you use for determining whether or not certain time periods were fucked up?

[Mzeusia]

That's what the muslims say, yes. The people he subjugated had different tales which are less flattering.
Of course, which tales are true and which are not is something we will never know.

Anyone with any grasp of early Islam would know Muslims wouldn't say, "Gee, this looks bad, we should hide it," they would say, "He did it, so we record and emulate it." The earliest strong hadith collection includes several Ahadith about a baby peeing on Muhammad while he's holding him, multiple accounts are included just so Muslims know what to do when that happens.

Now it sounds like you saying that Muslims should emulate subjugation, because Muhammad did it. I don't think that's what you meant to say.

[Al Mumtahanah]

Muslims who consider Urf (cultural norms) a principle in Shariaa accepted a certain degree in changes in culture, for example a different conception of adulthood, which has actually been used to issue fatawa against child brides. Although this cuts both ways since Urf is what the Taliban invokes to give women fewer rights than Islam prescribes.

Forgive me if this question is stupid because i'm already deep in this "debate", but what are Islam's views on women, according to the more "Progressive" branch? (I've heard there are different variations/branches of Islam)

We are veering way off topic so let me conclude simply that the schools are Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i and Hanbali and you are free to look into that. If you want more specifics I will be happy to talk in the IDT

[Imbalistan]

Anyone with any grasp of early Islam would know Muslims wouldn't say, "Gee, this looks bad, we should hide it," they would say, "He did it, so we record and emulate it." The earliest strong hadith collection includes several Ahadith about a baby peeing on Muhammad while he's holding him, multiple accounts are included just so Muslims know what to do when that happens.

Why do I find this funny, lol

Hey, every religion has small tidbits which are a haha momento.

[Al Mumtahanah]

He himself was a soldier as a child. Very difficult to see it that way in a culture where puberty is considered the age of majority.

So I just want to be clear I understand what you're saying, you're using cultural relativism to justify something when the person who do the thing is believed to be an objective paragon of virtue?
Is that right?

Either Muhammad is a flawed man of his time like any other or he's an objective paragon of morality in which case time and place are irrelevant.
You can't have it both ways.

As I have said, cultural relativism is accepted as a principle in Shariaa by some schools, it's called Urf. We can discuss it extensively in the IDT if you want.

[Ifreann]

How about if I don't wanna learn about Islam I shouldn't have to?

Makes about as much sense as letting kids decide that if they don't wanna eat then they shouldn't have to.

Knowing about Islam isn't necessary for any job other than being an imam,

Education shouldn't be just about job training.

and this is the kind of stuff that only makes people more resentful and makes hostilities worse. But if this is the game that's gonna be played, I think it ought to be fair.

Imagine if Muslim kids were forced to take classes on atheism.

Sounds great. Kids should learn about atheism as well as learning about major and minor world religions.

[The New California Republic]

A lot less students would take it if it were elective. At a guesstimate the classes would lose 75%+ of their students.

And what of value would be lost if religious tolerance is still being encouraged and taught?

Nothing. Sorry, I was busy with something else and skimread your post.

[Ors Might]

And what of value would be lost if religious tolerance is still being encouraged and taught?

Nothing. Sorry, I was busy with something else and skimread your post.

Not a problem, friend.

[The Brytish Isles]

I think UK religious education should focus on Christianity since Britain is and historically has been a predominantly Christian nation. But teaching about world religions in general is a reasonable as a supplement or as an alternative for students whose parents object.

I would agree to this so long Old English, Celtic paganism is given a prominent place as well. Otherwise, the current version is fine.