NationStates

Posted: **Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:41 pm**

Alpes a Septentrionali imperium wrote:
Purgatio wrote:
I've pointed out before how ridiculous it is to argue that you cannot kill yourself because your family will be sad. This is an open-ended argument against any bodily autonomy or sovereignty. Simple example - if a homophobic family would feel sad if a family member has gay sex, would you also argue that that gay family member now has a moral obligation to never have gay sex simply because it would make his family sad? This is a twisted view that effectively subscribes to family ownership of their members' bodies and lives.

So you're justifying that suicide should be a bodily autonomy and that you shouldn't care if anyone is effect by it, by comparing it to homophobes learning that a relative's gay. That's like comparing apples to oranges because guess what. Sexuality and suicide are extremely different things and just because they have the same effect, it turns out the effect happens for very different reasons.

The principle is the same, your family doesn't own you or your body. You are a free, rational, moral agent, possessing the capacity for rational cognition and individual self-determination, to decide what happens to you, to use your body for whatever ends and desires you decide to pursue. If a person decides, in the exercise of his autonomy and self-determination, to end his life, that is his business and none of us have the right to tell him otherwise.

Posted: **Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:42 pm**

Geneviev wrote:Suicide is much worse for people around you than abortion or things like that. It's not a good choice to make either.

Yes, but that doesn't answer the question, and it's a bad motivation to say "no." Toxic behavior is also very bad for the people around you, but I don't hear anyone clamoring to make that illegal.

Posted: **Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:44 pm**

Domina Nostra Nova Terra wrote:
Purgatio wrote:Suicide, at the end of the day, is a personal choice people make over what should happen to their own body. We don't have centres out there telling people not to tattoo themselves or not to braid their hair, why is it any of the business of so-called 'suicide prevention' organisations or 'mental health' organisations to tell thinking, autonomous human beings, in the free exercise of their agency, to make a free, informed choice over what happens to their body? We should treat suicide as a personal choice, and not cast judgment on what another person chooses to do with their body through these discriminatory 'suicide prevention' NGOs

Are you trolling or are you being serious?

If you are being serious are you seriously comparing braiding hair to ending your own life?

We keep on sliding down the slope I suppose.

That's normal for the time of the season, when the NationStates Summer newbies manifest themselves with the intention to score the maximum amount of EdgeLord points. Hell, the OP even has the word 'fascist' in his name, for it is so very important to profoundly manifest yourself to the fullest extent.

Posted: **Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:44 pm**

Cekoviu wrote:
Geneviev wrote:Suicide is much worse for people around you than abortion or things like that. It's not a good choice to make either.

Yes, but that doesn't answer the question, and it's a bad motivation to say "no." Toxic behavior is also very bad for the people around you, but I don't hear anyone clamoring to make that illegal.

Toxic behavior should be illegal, but that's not realistic. Suicide shouldn't be allowed because it is harming others more than most other things.

Posted: **Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:46 pm**

Geneviev wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:Yes, but that doesn't answer the question, and it's a bad motivation to say "no." Toxic behavior is also very bad for the people around you, but I don't hear anyone clamoring to make that illegal.

Toxic behavior should be illegal, but that's not realistic. Suicide shouldn't be allowed because it is harming others more than most other things.

You are allowed to harm others in the choices you make over your own body that doesn't invade the bodily sovereignty of others. Some parents will be sad if their kids get piercings or tattoos. This isn't a justification to ban piercings and tattoos.

Posted: **Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:47 pm**

Al Mumtahanah wrote:
Uiiop wrote:Yet god gave us free will. One can extend that to say god give us sovereignty over our bodies under his own sovereignty of us.

Free will, IF it exists, is not sovereignty, because you are still subordinate to God's authority.

In this case Body sovereignty as believed in by the OP is not an escape or a denial of judgement whether being mortal opinion or god's (if he exists) sovereignty.

Wanting someone for be free to make choices does not meant one can't call the choices made bad.

Posted: **Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:49 pm**

Purgatio wrote:
Geneviev wrote:Toxic behavior should be illegal, but that's not realistic. Suicide shouldn't be allowed because it is harming others more than most other things.

You are allowed to harm others in the choices you make over your own body that doesn't invade the bodily sovereignty of others. Some parents will be sad if their kids get piercings or tattoos. This isn't a justification to ban piercings and tattoos.

If parents lose their child to suicide, that is much more painful to them than if that child has a piercing or tattoo. Losing a friend to suicide is also just as painful and it's much worse than what you seem to think.

Posted: **Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:49 pm**

Geneviev wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:Yes, but that doesn't answer the question, and it's a bad motivation to say "no." Toxic behavior is also very bad for the people around you, but I don't hear anyone clamoring to make that illegal.

Toxic behavior should be illegal, but that's not realistic.

An utterly asinine belief, and it's no less realistic than illegalizing suicide. What are you going to do, take somebody's corpse to court and sentence them to life in prison?

Suicide shouldn't be allowed because it is harming others more than most other things.

Not necessarily. Someone with barely any family left, no friends because of depression-based withdrawal... this is not implausible.

Posted: **Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:49 pm**

Hurdergaryp wrote:
Domina Nostra Nova Terra wrote:Are you trolling or are you being serious?

If you are being serious are you seriously comparing braiding hair to ending your own life?

We keep on sliding down the slope I suppose.

That's normal for the time of the season, when the NationStates Summer newbies manifest themselves with the intention to score the maximum amount of EdgeLord points. Hell, the OP even has the word 'fascist' in his name, for it is so very important to profoundly manifest yourself to the fullest extent.

OP is literally arguing for bodily sovereignty and individual self-determination. Not exactly fascist or authoritarian.

Posted: **Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:49 pm**

Geneviev wrote:
Uiiop wrote:Yet god gave us free will. One can extend that to say god give us sovereignty over our bodies under his own sovereignty of us.

The Bible says that we are not our own and should honor God with our bodies.

That's sounds like advice given for oneself and not what do with other people.

Posted: **Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:49 pm**

Uiiop wrote:
Al Mumtahanah wrote:Free will, IF it exists, is not sovereignty, because you are still subordinate to God's authority.

In this case Body sovereignty as believed in by the OP is not an escape or a denial of judgement whether being mortal opinion or god's (if he exists) sovereignty.

Wanting someone for be free to make choices does not meant one can't call the choices made bad.

Presuming God is libertarian which He isn't in any religion that I know of.

Posted: **Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:50 pm**

Geneviev wrote:
Purgatio wrote:
You are allowed to harm others in the choices you make over your own body that doesn't invade the bodily sovereignty of others. Some parents will be sad if their kids get piercings or tattoos. This isn't a justification to ban piercings and tattoos.

If parents lose their child to suicide, that is much more painful to them than if that child has a piercing or tattoo. Losing a friend to suicide is also just as painful and it's much worse than what you seem to think.

I'm not denying its painful, I'm saying just because the choice you make over your body is 'painful' for those around you doesn't change the fact that you own and possess your body and yourself, not other people, not your family or your friends.

Posted: **Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:52 pm**

Purgatio wrote:
Alpes a Septentrionali imperium wrote:

So you're justifying that suicide should be a bodily autonomy and that you shouldn't care if anyone is effect by it, by comparing it to homophobes learning that a relative's gay. That's like comparing apples to oranges because guess what. Sexuality and suicide are extremely different things and just because they have the same effect, it turns out the effect happens for very different reasons.

The principle is the same, your family doesn't own you or your body. You are a free, rational, moral agent, possessing the capacity for rational cognition and individual self-determination, to decide what happens to you, to use your body for whatever ends and desires you decide to pursue. If a person decides, in the exercise of his autonomy and self-determination, to end his life, that is his business and none of us have the right to tell him otherwise.

Know what, since today I don't feel like getting into an argument with somebody on the internet on whether suicide is a right or choice or not. And since we clearly aren't going to come on any common ground for this discussion I'm just going to end it right here. Thank you for making me doubt somethings and I'm just going to head back to Forum 7 or to develop one of my puppet nations. So good day.

Posted: **Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:52 pm**

Purgatio wrote:
Hurdergaryp wrote:That's normal for the time of the season, when the NationStates Summer newbies manifest themselves with the intention to score the maximum amount of EdgeLord points. Hell, the OP even has the word 'fascist' in his name, for it is so very important to profoundly manifest yourself to the fullest extent.

OP is literally arguing for bodily sovereignty and individual self-determination. Not exactly fascist or authoritarian.

His username, however, is suspect. NationStates Summer is when bored children decide to create accounts in order to bolster the neonazi/alt-right/"third positionist" infestations that have been allowed here.

Posted: **Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:53 pm**

Al Mumtahanah wrote:
Uiiop wrote:In this case Body sovereignty as believed in by the OP is not an escape or a denial of judgement whether being mortal opinion or god's (if he exists) sovereignty.

Wanting someone for be free to make choices does not meant one can't call the choices made bad.

Presuming God is libertarian which He isn't in any religion that I know of.

Maybe not the "True" religion but they exist.
That and it depends on what you mean by libertarian in this case.
In this argument God does judge and punish suicidal people but only gives himself the authority to do so.
To clarify to everyone else if not you; I'm playing devil's advocate here.

Posted: **Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:54 pm**

Hurdergaryp wrote:
Purgatio wrote:OP is literally arguing for bodily sovereignty and individual self-determination. Not exactly fascist or authoritarian.

His username, however, is suspect. NationStates Summer is when bored children decide to create accounts in order to bolster the neonazi/alt-right/"third positionist" infestations that have been allowed here.

Sure, and maybe this is a relevant point to be made if the OP were arguing for a policy that was vaguely fascist or Nazi, but arguing for a right to suicide isn't inherently fascist or Nazi.

Posted: **Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:54 pm**

There should be a formal process to ensure the person is of sound mind when they make the decision to kill themselves and that they are aware of alternatives available and resources that could help solve problems that may be leading them to do it.
If they pass that process, they should be euthanized or allowed to kill themselves.

Posted: **Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:55 pm**

Uiiop wrote:
Geneviev wrote:The Bible says that we are not our own and should honor God with our bodies.

That's sounds like advice given for oneself and not what do with other people.

It's what is right for everyone.

Purgatio wrote:
Geneviev wrote:If parents lose their child to suicide, that is much more painful to them than if that child has a piercing or tattoo. Losing a friend to suicide is also just as painful and it's much worse than what you seem to think.

I'm not denying its painful, I'm saying just because the choice you make over your body is 'painful' for those around you doesn't change the fact that you own and possess your body and yourself, not other people, not your family or your friends.

It's immoral to intentionally cause pain to another person. Suicide isn't different.

Posted: **Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:57 pm**

Geneviev wrote:
Uiiop wrote:That's sounds like advice given for oneself and not what do with other people.

It's what is right for everyone.

Purgatio wrote:
I'm not denying its painful, I'm saying just because the choice you make over your body is 'painful' for those around you doesn't change the fact that you own and possess your body and yourself, not other people, not your family or your friends.

It's immoral to intentionally cause pain to another person. Suicide isn't different.

Person A tells me if I don't convert to his religion, he will be sad because he believes his religion is the only truth. I don't convert to his religion, knowing he will be sad. I have intentionally caused pain to another person. Is it immoral?

Posted: **Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:58 pm**

Geneviev wrote:
Purgatio wrote:
I'm not denying its painful, I'm saying just because the choice you make over your body is 'painful' for those around you doesn't change the fact that you own and possess your body and yourself, not other people, not your family or your friends.

It's immoral to intentionally cause pain to another person. Suicide isn't different.

Forcing someone with extreme depression to not be able to end it is intentionally causing them pain. And yet, you're okay with that.

Posted: **Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:59 pm**

Purgatio wrote:
Geneviev wrote:It's what is right for everyone.

It's immoral to intentionally cause pain to another person. Suicide isn't different.

Person A tells me if I don't convert to his religion, he will be sad because he believes his religion is the only truth. I don't convert to his religion, knowing he will be sad. I have intentionally caused pain to another person. Is it immoral?

That isn't close to being as devastating as losing someone to suicide.

Posted: **Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:59 pm**

All I can say is, if it comes to it, try and stop me.

Posted: **Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:00 pm**

Geneviev wrote:
Purgatio wrote:
Person A tells me if I don't convert to his religion, he will be sad because he believes his religion is the only truth. I don't convert to his religion, knowing he will be sad. I have intentionally caused pain to another person. Is it immoral?

That isn't close to being as devastating as losing someone to suicide.

Your argument was "it's immoral to intentionally cause pain to another person". I'm pointing out an example where that's clearly not true.

Posted: **Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:00 pm**

Geneviev wrote:
Purgatio wrote:
Person A tells me if I don't convert to his religion, he will be sad because he believes his religion is the only truth. I don't convert to his religion, knowing he will be sad. I have intentionally caused pain to another person. Is it immoral?

That isn't close to being as devastating as losing someone to suicide.

Yet, if you believe in god, wouldn't you be happy for them considering that they have moved on from the shackles of this miserable world and into a better place?

Posted: **Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:00 pm**

Geneviev wrote:
Purgatio wrote:
Person A tells me if I don't convert to his religion, he will be sad because he believes his religion is the only truth. I don't convert to his religion, knowing he will be sad. I have intentionally caused pain to another person. Is it immoral?

That isn't close to being as devastating as losing someone to suicide.

So where is the cutoff for the level of pain that must be caused to make something immoral? And how is it judged?

NationStates

"My Body, My Choice!": Should it Extend to Suicide?