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"My Body, My Choice!": Should it Extend to Suicide?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Should people have the right to end their own life?

Yes. The motivation is nobody else's business.
69
18%
Yes, and mental health services and awareness need to be improved to prevent suicide.
149
38%
Only under certain circumstances/for certain reasons. (Explain?)
28
7%
Only after some sort of evaluation. (Explain?)
24
6%
No. Mental health services and awareness needs to be improved to prevent suicide.
76
19%
No, period.
42
11%
Other. (Explain?)
6
2%
 
Total votes : 394

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Fascist Soyouso
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Corrupt Dictatorship

"My Body, My Choice!": Should it Extend to Suicide?

Postby Fascist Soyouso » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:58 pm

Considering the subject matter, I think it would be appropriate to provide a link to the pinned post with links to resources for those struggling with depression and suicidal thoughts. I do not intend to actively encourage or assist anyone in doing anything of the sort by making this thread, only to open up a discussion on the subject. I ask anyone who participates in this discussion to do the same, and approach the topic with a level of sensitivity, as it affects many.


Bodily sovereignty is the concept that a person's body is their own property. Thus their ability to self-govern matters regarding the use of their body must be respected. Self-ownership, or individual sovereignty, is the concept that one's self is one's own property, and thus their bodily sovereignty and ability to control the direction they take their life in should be respected.

Many consider that freedom a human right, but how far consideration of one's individual sovereignty should go before it's not a good enough reason to allow someone to do something is a subject of debate. This can, for example, be seen in arguments about birth control, abortion, transgender rights, and same-sex marriage.

But one of the topics people quite often draw the line on is the topic of suicide, the act of intentionally ending one's own life.

The only time I ever really see the will of the suicidal person brought up in debates about suicide is when the topic being discussed is whether or not people with terminal illnesses should be allowed to choose euthanasia. This is understandable, as the only way a person can escape suffering from the final stages of a terminal illness is to die, and thus it would be cruel to force the person to go through it just because other people want to keep them around a little longer.

When the motivation for death is rooted in things that have the potential to be improved if they stay alive, (mental illness, trauma, societal woes & discrimination, social isolation, substance abuse, etc.) people are less likely to want to provide them with that choice. As the saying goes, it becomes a permanent solution to a (possibly) temporary problem, a solution that can bring trauma and heartache to their loved ones when there are other options.

But then that takes us to a different question.

Should anyone else's opinion on the rationality of their motivation matter more than a person's individual sovereignty?

When we talk about abortion from a pro-choice standpoint, all that matters in deciding whether a person should be allowed to get an abortion is that they've made the decision that they would like one, because they should have the authority in the usage of their body and should be able to decide whether they want to have a child or not.

Their partner, for example, could disagree for a number of reasons. Maybe because they want to raise the child, and would suffer a deep emotional wound if the pregnancy was terminated. Maybe they see abortion as immoral, or otherwise disagree with it for social or religious reasons. But none of that would matter in the end, because the fetus is using the other parent's body to survive and thus it's not their call to make.

This line of reasoning ("my body, my choice!") can also be applied to suicide. But should it? Why or why not, NSG?

In my personal opinion, while it shouldn't ever be encouraged, suicide shouldn't be illegal. It's not my or anyone elses' place but the person to decide whether or not they'll end their own life.

I am a person who deals with suicidal ideation on a daily basis, and I would like my decision to be respected should I ever decide to do it. There are many factors that have lead to it, the primary ones being fighting a long battle with mental illness, social isolation, gender dysphoria with little to no chance of alleviating, as the only way I'd be able to live in my body without a problem is if shapeshifting became a thing, and having no will to deal with societal bullshit anymore.

Even though I feel guilty for feeling this way despite there being people in my life who would miss me, a number of which I can tell would never be able to get over me being gone, the sad fact is support alone isn't going to solve the actual problems that have lead me to feel this way. As much as I wish support from others was enough, in the end what I need in order to revive my will to live is improvement of the problems that cannot be ignored. If I don't get those results, I just don't see it as worth it to live, and I'd like to have the choice to end it when I'm ready.

Despite this, I do support recovery and the improvement and availability of mental health services, as well as increasing awareness and education on the subject. I think it would be a mistake to push for suicide prevention while neglecting to adequately address the issues that drive people to want to do it in the first place. People should still be there for those struggling with suicidal thoughts in their life and support them as best they can.
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Uiiop
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Postby Uiiop » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:08 pm

Even people who attempt it and/or actually succeed can be conflicted about it.
That and instances of regrets regrading their decision complicates this matter at least in regards to caring about personal sovereignty.

That being said i kinda agree with you on the what to do. The purpose of suicide being illegal was to get people help not to treat them like criminals crazy as that sounds. Shame the legal system de facto can't see that nuance if it doesn't just deliberately ignore it .
Last edited by Uiiop on Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Chan Island
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Postby Chan Island » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:09 pm

Yes. But everyone else has the right to try and stop you if they believe you are not acting out of sound mind.

And here are the Samaritans if you are thinking about suicide a lot.

https://samaritanshope.org/
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Purgatio
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Postby Purgatio » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:11 pm

Suicide, at the end of the day, is a personal choice people make over what should happen to their own body. We don't have centres out there telling people not to tattoo themselves or not to braid their hair, why is it any of the business of so-called 'suicide prevention' organisations or 'mental health' organisations to tell thinking, autonomous human beings, in the free exercise of their agency, to make a free, informed choice over what happens to their body? We should treat suicide as a personal choice, and not cast judgment on what another person chooses to do with their body through these discriminatory 'suicide prevention' NGOs
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Recidivism
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Postby Recidivism » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:14 pm

Depends on what your state of mind is.

If you still want to kill yourself despite having no diagnosable psychiatric condition, then have at it.

But most people who want to kill themselves wouldn't want to after a medical intervention.

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Domina Nostra Nova Terra
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Postby Domina Nostra Nova Terra » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:14 pm

Purgatio wrote:Suicide, at the end of the day, is a personal choice people make over what should happen to their own body. We don't have centres out there telling people not to tattoo themselves or not to braid their hair, why is it any of the business of so-called 'suicide prevention' organisations or 'mental health' organisations to tell thinking, autonomous human beings, in the free exercise of their agency, to make a free, informed choice over what happens to their body? We should treat suicide as a personal choice, and not cast judgment on what another person chooses to do with their body through these discriminatory 'suicide prevention' NGOs

Are you trolling or are you being serious?

If you are being serious are you seriously comparing braiding hair to ending your own life?

We keep on sliding down the slope I suppose.
Last edited by Domina Nostra Nova Terra on Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Soviet Tankistan
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Postby Soviet Tankistan » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:16 pm

No. In non-medical settings, it is evil and immoral to encourage this practice. Every measure should be taken to prevent suicide. Medically, still no, although it is not right to cut short a life that has a chance it is not as wrong.
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Purgatio
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Postby Purgatio » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:18 pm

Domina Nostra Nova Terra wrote:
Purgatio wrote:Suicide, at the end of the day, is a personal choice people make over what should happen to their own body. We don't have centres out there telling people not to tattoo themselves or not to braid their hair, why is it any of the business of so-called 'suicide prevention' organisations or 'mental health' organisations to tell thinking, autonomous human beings, in the free exercise of their agency, to make a free, informed choice over what happens to their body? We should treat suicide as a personal choice, and not cast judgment on what another person chooses to do with their body through these discriminatory 'suicide prevention' NGOs

Are you trolling or are you being serious?

If you are being serious are you seriously comparing braiding hair to ending your own life?

We keep on sliding down the slope I suppose.


Of course I'm being serious. How is it any of your business telling a thinking, autonomous adult what to do with his body?
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Uiiop
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Postby Uiiop » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:20 pm

Purgatio wrote:
Domina Nostra Nova Terra wrote:Are you trolling or are you being serious?

If you are being serious are you seriously comparing braiding hair to ending your own life?

We keep on sliding down the slope I suppose.


Of course I'm being serious. How is it any of your business telling a thinking, autonomous adult what to do with his body?

Because the ambiguity of whether or not the person was actually being autonomous(or possibly even thinking) in the specific action.

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Domina Nostra Nova Terra
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Postby Domina Nostra Nova Terra » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:20 pm

Purgatio wrote:
Domina Nostra Nova Terra wrote:Are you trolling or are you being serious?

If you are being serious are you seriously comparing braiding hair to ending your own life?

We keep on sliding down the slope I suppose.


Of course I'm being serious. How is it any of your business telling a thinking, autonomous adult what to do with his body?

It absolutely is if they are going to harm themselves because suicide isn't just like getting your hair braided. It hurts family, it hurts friends.

This is an absolutely insane line of thinking and will end in nothing but misery for the sake of a corrupt and evil idea of what real freedom is.
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Paddy O Fernature
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Postby Paddy O Fernature » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:20 pm

If people want to kill themselves, let them. And the end of the day, it's their own personal choice and they should be the only ones held accountable for their own actions.
Last edited by Paddy O Fernature on Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ieskarios
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Postby Ieskarios » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:20 pm

Absolutely not. This is not a situation where "my body, my choice" should ever be applied.
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Recidivism
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Postby Recidivism » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:20 pm

Purgatio wrote:
Domina Nostra Nova Terra wrote:Are you trolling or are you being serious?

If you are being serious are you seriously comparing braiding hair to ending your own life?

We keep on sliding down the slope I suppose.


Of course I'm being serious. How is it any of your business telling a thinking, autonomous adult what to do with his body?


I only give people autonomy to the extent that they can make rational and informed decisions. Many suicidal people do not meet that criteria.

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Purgatio
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Postby Purgatio » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:21 pm

Recidivism wrote:
Purgatio wrote:
Of course I'm being serious. How is it any of your business telling a thinking, autonomous adult what to do with his body?


I only give people autonomy to the extent that they can make rational and informed decisions. Many suicidal people do not meet that criteria.


Just because it's a self-harming choice that you would not make or that it is detrimentally to their welfare does not mean it is no longer a rational and informed decision
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Domina Nostra Nova Terra
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Postby Domina Nostra Nova Terra » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:21 pm

Uiiop wrote:
Purgatio wrote:
Of course I'm being serious. How is it any of your business telling a thinking, autonomous adult what to do with his body?

Because the ambiguity of whether or not the person was actually being autonomous(or possibly even thinking) in the specific action.

I don't think anyone in history has ever woken up in sound mind and thought "today I will go to greggs then do a cheeky suicide" like how a woman thinks about how she will change up her hair style or man getting a new paint job on his car.
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And let the mountains hoary
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Domina Nostra Nova Terra
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Postby Domina Nostra Nova Terra » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:23 pm

Purgatio wrote:
Recidivism wrote:
I only give people autonomy to the extent that they can make rational and informed decisions. Many suicidal people do not meet that criteria.


Just because it's a self-harming choice that you would not make or that it is detrimentally to their welfare does not mean it is no longer a rational and informed decision

How on earth is self harming for no beneficial rational? This isn't like getting your ear pierced or getting a tattoo. This isn't like choosing which hairstyle this is the termination of someone's life.

This is not just irrational this is insane.
Last edited by Domina Nostra Nova Terra on Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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GO TO MASS
Then wake mair loud the pibroch proud.
And let the mountains hoary
Re-echo round the warlike sound
That speaks of Highland glory.
For strains sublime, through future time,
Shall tell the tale unsparely.
How Scotland's crown was placed aboon
The yellow locks o' Charlie.

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Soviet Tankistan
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Postby Soviet Tankistan » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:23 pm

Purgatio wrote:
Domina Nostra Nova Terra wrote:Are you trolling or are you being serious?

If you are being serious are you seriously comparing braiding hair to ending your own life?

We keep on sliding down the slope I suppose.


Of course I'm being serious. How is it any of your business telling a thinking, autonomous adult what to do with his body?

The horrors! Society these days is so rotten that many decide to tell others not to die! Thyyhyhhe plague with be an improvement on even this small bit of mutual concern.
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Scomagia
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Postby Scomagia » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:23 pm

While few suicides are rational, it is the right of the individual to kill themselves. It's an incredibly fucked up, douchebaggy thing to do in most cases.
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Purgatio
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Postby Purgatio » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:23 pm

Domina Nostra Nova Terra wrote:
Purgatio wrote:
Of course I'm being serious. How is it any of your business telling a thinking, autonomous adult what to do with his body?

It absolutely is if they are going to harm themselves because suicide isn't just like getting your hair braided. It hurts family, it hurts friends.

This is an absolutely insane line of thinking and will end in nothing but misery for the sake of a corrupt and evil idea of what real freedom is.


So what? You are entitled to make choices over your body even if it emotionally-harms family and friends. This is the insane and archaic thinking which people weaponise against gay people (ie the whole 'being gay is wrong because gay sex makes your parents and family sad') and, in East Asian cultures like mine, this corrupt argument is weaponised against singles who don't want to get married or have children (ie 'you shouldn't stay single or childless because it makes your parents sad').

The reality is your family doesn't own your body or your person. You are your own person. You are entitled to make choices over your body even if its consequence is people around you become sad. Otherwise you are endorsing a twisted worldview where your family essentially has ownership of you and you are effectively their enslave, restricted from doing anything at all that could make even a single one of your family members feel sad.
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N7eternia
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Postby N7eternia » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:23 pm

Purgatio wrote:Of course I'm being serious. How is it any of your business telling a thinking, autonomous adult what to do with his body?


I'm with you on this.

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Recidivism
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Postby Recidivism » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:23 pm

Purgatio wrote:
Recidivism wrote:
I only give people autonomy to the extent that they can make rational and informed decisions. Many suicidal people do not meet that criteria.


Just because it's a self-harming choice that you would not make or that it is detrimentally to their welfare does not mean it is no longer a rational and informed decision


I mean, acting against your own self-interest is pretty much the essence of irrationality.

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Alpes a Septentrionali imperium
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Postby Alpes a Septentrionali imperium » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:24 pm

Purgatio wrote:Suicide, at the end of the day, is a personal choice people make over what should happen to their own body. We don't have centres out there telling people not to tattoo themselves or not to braid their hair, why is it any of the business of so-called 'suicide prevention' organisations or 'mental health' organisations to tell thinking, autonomous human beings, in the free exercise of their agency, to make a free, informed choice over what happens to their body? We should treat suicide as a personal choice, and not cast judgment on what another person chooses to do with their body through these discriminatory 'suicide prevention' NGOs


Yeah, but unlike tattoos or braiding your hair suicide is something you can't go back on or change your mind about after you do it. Along with that, it doesn't just affect you, but it affects everybody around you, with them having to go through grief and wondering why you decided that you didn't want to live anymore. Along with that, people who have committed suicide or have had a suicide attempt usually have unlaying problems or things going on in there life that can be treated with other ways than death.
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Purgatio
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Postby Purgatio » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:25 pm

Domina Nostra Nova Terra wrote:
Purgatio wrote:
Just because it's a self-harming choice that you would not make or that it is detrimentally to their welfare does not mean it is no longer a rational and informed decision

How on earth is self harming for no beneficial rational? This isn't like getting your ear pierced or getting a tattoo. This isn't like choosing which hairstyle this is the termination of someone's life.

This is not just irrational this is insane.


Rational in the sense that an autonomous, thinking person is weighing up the pros and cons and deciding what is, in his best judgment, the best decision to make over his own body. If a person decides, after that process, that life is not worth living, who are you to tell him otherwise? Let people do their own thing. If you believe life is so goddamn precious no amount of human suffering justifies ending it, fine, apply that philosophy to your own life and your own body, don't try and force it onto others through discriminatory and insulting 'suicide prevention' organisations trying to lecture free, thinking human beings on how to live their own lives.
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Results
Work, Liberty, Order
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Conservatism - 64%
Nationalism - 93%
Capitalism - 100%
Laissez-faire - 100%
Productivism - 100%
Reformism - 100%
Other Values - Pragmatism; Monarchism; Missionary

Results
Fanatic Unitary - 94%
Fanatic Authoritarian - 94%
Moderate Isolationist - 62%
Militarist - 78%
Extreme Security - 86%
Fanatic Markets - 98%
Moderate Religious - 62%
Progressive - 58%
Fanatic Assimilationist - 90%

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Al Mumtahanah
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Postby Al Mumtahanah » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:25 pm

Bodily sovereignty sounds innately atheist.
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Makes about as much sense as letting kids decide that if they don't wanna eat then they shouldn't have to.

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Recidivism
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Postby Recidivism » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:25 pm

If we are going to let irrational people who lack knowledge make any kind of decision about their own body, we may as well let five year olds consent to plastic surgery.

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