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Should the Electoral College be abolished?

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Should the Electoral College be abolished?

Yes
221
60%
No (please explain)
148
40%
 
Total votes : 369

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Arlenton
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8799
Founded: Dec 16, 2012
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Arlenton » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:17 pm

Kowani wrote:
Arlenton wrote:So policies I support are more likely to be enacted, and those I oppose less likely.

Perhaps you should get better policies. Or better politicians.

Or... Keep the policies I like and politicians I like, and keep winning despite losing the popular vote?

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Bread Herbert
Diplomat
 
Posts: 666
Founded: Jul 14, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Bread Herbert » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:18 pm

Arlenton wrote:
Kowani wrote:Perhaps you should get better policies. Or better politicians.

Or... Keep the policies I like and politicians I like, and keep winning despite losing the popular vote?


So, you are in favor of minority rule?

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Kowani
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15482
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:18 pm

Ors Might wrote:
Kowani wrote:No shit. That’s the thing about large groups of people-someone is always gonna get fucked over. Regardless I how much you “level the playing field”, someone isn’t gonna have their interests met.

Indeed, which is why you introduce protections and balances in order to prevent as much of the fuckening as you can.

If the EC did that, you might have a point.

Ors Might wrote:
Kowani wrote:Except, you know-it is. You attempt to make it sound better, but it remains minority rule.

False. The majority isn’t able to vote on whether asians can be considered human. That does not make this a minority rule of asians.

I mean, it is. Constitutional amendments are a thing. The fact is that the majority considers Asians to be human, because we’re not racist fuckheads.
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Atheist and still proud of it.
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Prydania wrote:
As a Canadian? I find Americans and their deep, deep distrust of the government to be fundamentally, critically, laughably flawed. I find some aspects of your country completely absurd. The distrust of anything remotely resembling authority is one. The gun problem that stems from that is another.

Seangoli wrote:You are spouting nonsensical drivel with no coherent thought, little logic, and at the end of it all just angry opining at the clouds based on a truly astonishly low level of knowledge or understanding of the subject matter.

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Pacomia
Senator
 
Posts: 4208
Founded: May 23, 2019
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Pacomia » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:18 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Pacomia wrote:Normally, I’m in full support of states making their own laws and having as much power as possible, but this is just ridiculous. When an elector votes against their people they are not only failing to do their job, but also undermining democracy. It’s just dumb.


Then I guess if the people have a problem with it, they can make laws on it.

I don’t understand who wouldn’t have a problem with it, but okay.
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Salus Maior
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Posts: 15342
Founded: Jun 16, 2014
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Salus Maior » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:18 pm

Pacomia wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
Then I guess if the people have a problem with it, they can make laws on it.

I don’t understand who wouldn’t have a problem with it, but okay.


You can go ask the people of those states then.
Traditionalist Catholic and Constitutional Monarchist.

"What is better? To be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" -Paarthurnax

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Arlenton
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8799
Founded: Dec 16, 2012
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Arlenton » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:19 pm

Bread Herbert wrote:
Arlenton wrote:Or... Keep the policies I like and politicians I like, and keep winning despite losing the popular vote?


So, you are in favor of minority rule?

If I'm in the minority, yeah.

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New haven america
Post Czar
 
Posts: 32204
Founded: Oct 08, 2012
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby New haven america » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:19 pm

Arlenton wrote:
New haven america wrote:Because part of the reason it was made was continue the disenfranchisement of slaves in the South.

If the South actually considered black people as, you know, people, then it would've gotten equal representation in Congress during the early days of the country, but they didn't, hence their population was counted as lower than the North's. They got all uppity about that and the person who invented the EC had to make it so they got equal say while also allowing them to continue having slavery.

The Southern slave owners wanted slaves to count as full people. Northerners did not want them counted at all.

Uh, no, it went more like this:
The North "Welp, we've successfully drafted up this Constitution and Congressional system, congrats everyone!"

Everyone: "Yay!"

The North: "Yep, looks like everything is equal... oh, sorry South, you don't have equal representation, you don't count your slaves as people, sorry."

The South: "That is horrendous ya'll, we deserve equal representation just like everyone else. Ya'll wanna know what? Fine count them!"

The North: "Oh, well, that's great! So we'll just count them as citizens, and give them equal representation under the law, tax obligations, the ability to own land and work as they wish-"

The South: "Now just you wait just one gosh darn minute! I never said they can be people, they're not people, they're slaves and they should be treated as such!"

The North: "*sigh* Fine, if want to keep slaves then you can, but we're not counting them as people and that means you don't get equal representation. So how do you suppose we fix this"

The South: "Hm..."


And that's how The 3/5's Compromise and a massive part of the EC (As well as not trusting the voting population) was made. :)
Last edited by New haven america on Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bread Herbert
Diplomat
 
Posts: 666
Founded: Jul 14, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Bread Herbert » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:20 pm

Arlenton wrote:
Bread Herbert wrote:
So, you are in favor of minority rule?

If I'm in the minority, yeah.


So, you hate freedom and prefer tyranny. Got it.

User avatar
Kowani
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15482
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:20 pm

Arlenton wrote:
Kowani wrote:Perhaps you should get better policies. Or better politicians.

Or... Keep the policies I like and politicians I like, and keep winning despite losing the popular vote?

Except for the fact that you lose most of the time.
Narcissistic (Hedonistic) Nihilist. Yes, I am edgy. I know.
Atheist and still proud of it.
Post-Capitalist, Post-Nationalist.
Rights are functionally just privileges society has deemed important.
Prydania wrote:
As a Canadian? I find Americans and their deep, deep distrust of the government to be fundamentally, critically, laughably flawed. I find some aspects of your country completely absurd. The distrust of anything remotely resembling authority is one. The gun problem that stems from that is another.

Seangoli wrote:You are spouting nonsensical drivel with no coherent thought, little logic, and at the end of it all just angry opining at the clouds based on a truly astonishly low level of knowledge or understanding of the subject matter.

0% Capitalism

User avatar
Ors Might
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5140
Founded: Nov 01, 2016
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Ors Might » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:21 pm

Kowani wrote:
Ors Might wrote:Indeed, which is why you introduce protections and balances in order to prevent as much of the fuckening as you can.

If the EC did that, you might have a point.

Ors Might wrote:False. The majority isn’t able to vote on whether asians can be considered human. That does not make this a minority rule of asians.

I mean, it is. Constitutional amendments are a thing. The fact is that the majority considers Asians to be human, because we’re not racist fuckheads.

Let it be known that I don’t support the Electoral College for exactly that reason.

Friendly reminder that that is a fairly recent change for the majority.

User avatar
Arlenton
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8799
Founded: Dec 16, 2012
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Arlenton » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:21 pm

New haven america wrote:
Arlenton wrote:The Southern slave owners wanted slaves to count as full people. Northerners did not want them counted at all.

Uh, no, it went more like this:
The North "Welp, we've successfully drafted up this Constitution and Congressional system, congrats everyone!"

Everyone: "Yay!"

The North: "Yep, looks like everything is equal... oh, sorry South, you don't have equal representation, you don't count your slaves as people, sorry."

The South: "That is horrendous ya'll, we deserve equal representation just like everyone else. Ya'll wanna know what? Fine count them!"

The North: "Oh, well, that's great! So we'll just count them as citizens, and give them equal representation under the law, tax obligations, the ability to own land and work as they wish-"

The South: "Wait just one gosh darn minute! I never said they can be people, they're not people, they're slaves and they should be treated as such!"

The North: "*sigh* Fine, if want to keep slave then you can, but you're not counting them as people and that means you don't get equal representation. So do you suppose we fix this"

The South: "Hm..."


And that's how The 3/5's Compromise and a massive part of the EC (As well as not trusting the voting population) was made. :)

So basically what I said. Wanting to treat slaves as people only to get more representation, but not in any way else.

Kind of reminds me of sanctuary cities.

User avatar
Salus Maior
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15342
Founded: Jun 16, 2014
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Salus Maior » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:21 pm

Bread Herbert wrote:
Arlenton wrote:If I'm in the minority, yeah.


So, you hate freedom and prefer tyranny. Got it.


What's wrong with him acting in his own interest?

Not like you're any different. Considering abolishing the Electoral College will mean you're more likely to get what you want.
Traditionalist Catholic and Constitutional Monarchist.

"What is better? To be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" -Paarthurnax

“My entire endeavor has always been to clearly recognize the Will of God in all things and to follow it as completely as possible.” -Blessed Charles of Austria, last Habsburg Emperor

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Pacomia
Senator
 
Posts: 4208
Founded: May 23, 2019
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Pacomia » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:23 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Pacomia wrote:I don’t understand who wouldn’t have a problem with it, but okay.


You can go ask the people of those states then.

Can you tell me which states those are? I can’t see to find a list of them online.
This nation is based on (a slightly more extreme version of) my IRL opinions, and I answer issues accordingly.
Current accidental policies: Capitalism, No Internet, No Sex
Results of political various tests I took meme awesome
Liriena wrote:anyone to the left of Pinochet: *exists*

right-wingers: wat about vuvuzelaaa lmao gottem
Both the far left and far right are equally insane.
GLORY TO CASCADIA I’m a socialist. it’s different from communism. NUCLEAR ENERGY IS A GOOD THING!
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User avatar
Salus Maior
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15342
Founded: Jun 16, 2014
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Salus Maior » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:23 pm

Pacomia wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
You can go ask the people of those states then.

Can you tell me which states those are? I can’t see to find a list of them online.


I don't know, and don't really care.
Traditionalist Catholic and Constitutional Monarchist.

"What is better? To be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" -Paarthurnax

“My entire endeavor has always been to clearly recognize the Will of God in all things and to follow it as completely as possible.” -Blessed Charles of Austria, last Habsburg Emperor

User avatar
New haven america
Post Czar
 
Posts: 32204
Founded: Oct 08, 2012
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby New haven america » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:23 pm

Arlenton wrote:
New haven america wrote:Uh, no, it went more like this:
The North "Welp, we've successfully drafted up this Constitution and Congressional system, congrats everyone!"

Everyone: "Yay!"

The North: "Yep, looks like everything is equal... oh, sorry South, you don't have equal representation, you don't count your slaves as people, sorry."

The South: "That is horrendous ya'll, we deserve equal representation just like everyone else. Ya'll wanna know what? Fine count them!"

The North: "Oh, well, that's great! So we'll just count them as citizens, and give them equal representation under the law, tax obligations, the ability to own land and work as they wish-"

The South: "Wait just one gosh darn minute! I never said they can be people, they're not people, they're slaves and they should be treated as such!"

The North: "*sigh* Fine, if want to keep slave then you can, but you're not counting them as people and that means you don't get equal representation. So do you suppose we fix this"

The South: "Hm..."


And that's how The 3/5's Compromise and a massive part of the EC (As well as not trusting the voting population) was made. :)

So basically what I said. Wanting to treat slaves as people only to get more representation, but not in any way else.

Kind of reminds me of sanctuary cities.

No, the North was okay with them being counted as people and the South getting full representation, but the South didn't want that as that would mean they'd be allowed all the rights and freedoms of regular American citizens at the time, and they threw a hissy fit because the North wasn't letting them have their way. You don't get to have slaves count as full people but not give them the rights of people.
Last edited by New haven america on Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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User avatar
Kowani
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15482
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:25 pm

Ors Might wrote:
Kowani wrote:If the EC did that, you might have a point.


I mean, it is. Constitutional amendments are a thing. The fact is that the majority considers Asians to be human, because we’re not racist fuckheads.

Let it be known that I don’t support the Electoral College for exactly that reason.

Friendly reminder that that is a fairly recent change for the majority.

That’s…almost like a point.
Narcissistic (Hedonistic) Nihilist. Yes, I am edgy. I know.
Atheist and still proud of it.
Post-Capitalist, Post-Nationalist.
Rights are functionally just privileges society has deemed important.
Prydania wrote:
As a Canadian? I find Americans and their deep, deep distrust of the government to be fundamentally, critically, laughably flawed. I find some aspects of your country completely absurd. The distrust of anything remotely resembling authority is one. The gun problem that stems from that is another.

Seangoli wrote:You are spouting nonsensical drivel with no coherent thought, little logic, and at the end of it all just angry opining at the clouds based on a truly astonishly low level of knowledge or understanding of the subject matter.

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GlobalControl
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 467
Founded: Feb 26, 2014
Capitalist Paradise

Postby GlobalControl » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:26 pm

Bread Herbert wrote:The Electoral college is the system of electing the president of the United States of America.

In my opinion it is very undemocratic. The electoral college has lead to electing a president 4 times without the majority of the voters.
This site also shows how you can win the elections with 22% of the popular vote.
https://www.squarefree.com/2004/11/01/w ... ular-vote/

In my opinion the electoral college should be abolished and replaced by the popular vote the candidate with the most votes win.

NS , what is your opinion?


The idea behind the electoral college, and the electoral college itself, isn't undemocratic, and frankly, we are not a democracy, we're a Republic.
The purpose of the electoral college is to give fair representation, and that it does, to the less populous districts of the United States of America, of which would be rural counties, towns, and jurisdictions of which are not as powerful as major metropolitan and more densely populated regions of the United States.

Replacing the system with popular vote doesn't actually give everyone fair representation, like it's supposed to, rather it hands power disproportionately to the Cities and more densely populated urban/sub-urban areas where they lean considerably more to one direction than the rural areas tend to, of which can be both red or blue/left or right. The majority of America, I.E. small towns, states with lower population densities overall like Minnesota, Nevada, etc. would be unable to actively compete with states like California, New York, Washington, Florida, Etc., and it would make it so that in order to win any presidential election a politician needs to only campaign within a select few areas as compared to spreading out to the rest of the country to actually try to sway the rest of it to their side and properly earn their vote.
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User avatar
Arlenton
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8799
Founded: Dec 16, 2012
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Arlenton » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:26 pm

Kowani wrote:
Arlenton wrote:Or... Keep the policies I like and politicians I like, and keep winning despite losing the popular vote?

Except for the fact that you lose most of the time.


1994 win
1996 loss
1998 loss
2000 win
2002 win
2004 win
2006 loss
2008 loss
2010 win
2012 loss
2014 win
2016 win
2018 loss (partial win because of the Senate, but for the sake of the argument I'll say a loss)

So nope. Since I've been around, the party I support has 7 wins and 6 losses.

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Ors Might
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5140
Founded: Nov 01, 2016
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Ors Might » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:28 pm

Kowani wrote:
Ors Might wrote:Let it be known that I don’t support the Electoral College for exactly that reason.

Friendly reminder that that is a fairly recent change for the majority.

That’s…almost like a point.

Look man, I’m not arguing for any specific system of doing this junk, mainly because I’m not smart enough to know how to work that crap out. What I’m intending to argue is that giving minorities protections in a democracy is good as you can’t rely on the majority to vote on behalf of what will benefit everyone, or even the most amount of people.

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Pacomia
Senator
 
Posts: 4208
Founded: May 23, 2019
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Pacomia » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:28 pm

Arlenton wrote:
Kowani wrote:Except for the fact that you lose most of the time.


1994 win
1996 loss
1998 loss
2000 win
2002 win
2004 win
2006 loss
2008 loss
2010 win
2012 loss
2014 win
2016 win
2018 loss (partial win because of the Senate, but for the sake of the argument I'll say a loss)

So nope. Since I've been around, the party I support has 7 wins and 6 losses.

Okay, so we learn you’re a Republican. Just a quick question, would you be supporting the EC if it suddenly turned around and started benefiting Democrats?
Last edited by Pacomia on Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This nation is based on (a slightly more extreme version of) my IRL opinions, and I answer issues accordingly.
Current accidental policies: Capitalism, No Internet, No Sex
Results of political various tests I took meme awesome
Liriena wrote:anyone to the left of Pinochet: *exists*

right-wingers: wat about vuvuzelaaa lmao gottem
Both the far left and far right are equally insane.
GLORY TO CASCADIA I’m a socialist. it’s different from communism. NUCLEAR ENERGY IS A GOOD THING!
CURRENT HDI: 0.87547 (similar to Malta)
Also known as Dollar Store Kowani_________#EternalLotharia2020

User avatar
Arlenton
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8799
Founded: Dec 16, 2012
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Arlenton » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:30 pm

New haven america wrote:
Arlenton wrote:So basically what I said. Wanting to treat slaves as people only to get more representation, but not in any way else.

Kind of reminds me of sanctuary cities.

No, the North was okay wit them being counted as people, but the South didn't want that as that would mean they'd be allowed all the rights and freedoms of regular American citizens at the time, and they threw a hissy fit because the North wasn't letting them have their way. You don't get to have slaves count as full people but not give them the rights of people.

No. The North was not ok with them being counted for representation lmfao. Counting non-voting slaves gave extra representation to the slave states.

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New haven america
Post Czar
 
Posts: 32204
Founded: Oct 08, 2012
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby New haven america » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:31 pm

Pacomia wrote:
Arlenton wrote:
1994 win
1996 loss
1998 loss
2000 win
2002 win
2004 win
2006 loss
2008 loss
2010 win
2012 loss
2014 win
2016 win
2018 loss (partial win because of the Senate, but for the sake of the argument I'll say a loss)

So nope. Since I've been around, the party I support has 7 wins and 6 losses.

Okay, so we learn you’re a Republican. Just a quick question, would you be supporting the EC if it suddenly turned around and started benefiting Democrats?

No, they would not.

Also, do they seriously believe the EC affects congressional elections? Because it doesn't, those are popular vote elections that have been gerrymandered.
Human of the male variety
Will accept TGs
Char/Axis 2020

That's all folks~

User avatar
Arlenton
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8799
Founded: Dec 16, 2012
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Arlenton » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:33 pm

Pacomia wrote:
Arlenton wrote:
1994 win
1996 loss
1998 loss
2000 win
2002 win
2004 win
2006 loss
2008 loss
2010 win
2012 loss
2014 win
2016 win
2018 loss (partial win because of the Senate, but for the sake of the argument I'll say a loss)

So nope. Since I've been around, the party I support has 7 wins and 6 losses.

Okay, so we learn you’re a Republican. Just a quick question, would you be supporting the EC if it suddenly turned around and started benefiting Democrats?

Depends. A turnaround would would mean that the coalitions have just changed. It may turn back around at some point after

Then there's the whole constitutional part of it. I'm super originalist, and changing something like this does not sound good.

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New haven america
Post Czar
 
Posts: 32204
Founded: Oct 08, 2012
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby New haven america » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:33 pm

Arlenton wrote:
New haven america wrote:No, the North was okay wit them being counted as people, but the South didn't want that as that would mean they'd be allowed all the rights and freedoms of regular American citizens at the time, and they threw a hissy fit because the North wasn't letting them have their way. You don't get to have slaves count as full people but not give them the rights of people.

1. No. The North was not ok with them being counted for representation lmfao. 2. Counting non-voting slaves gave extra representation to the slave states.

1. Yes, they actually were. Or are you just purposefully forgetting the North has always been historically anti-slavery?
2. Which the North didn't allow because in order to count those slaves, they'd need to be treated as actual human beings, something the South had no intention of doing.
Human of the male variety
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Kowani
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15482
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:33 pm

Arlenton wrote:
Kowani wrote:Except for the fact that you lose most of the time.


1994 win
1996 loss
1998 loss
2000 win
2002 win
2004 win
2006 loss
2008 loss
2010 win
2012 loss
2014 win
2016 win
2018 loss (partial win because of the Senate, but for the sake of the argument I'll say a loss)

So nope. Since I've been around, the party I support has 7 wins and 6 losses.

Yeah, we’re talking about the EC. So, remove all those midterms.
Now, the EC has created precisely 5 minority Presidents. Discounting JQA because he wasn’t a Republican, you have: Rutherford B. Hayes (Beyond crappy, Benjamin Harrison (fucking useless), Bush Jr (Seriously, why do we keep getting bad candidates, and the current POTUS.

But no. Winning.
Narcissistic (Hedonistic) Nihilist. Yes, I am edgy. I know.
Atheist and still proud of it.
Post-Capitalist, Post-Nationalist.
Rights are functionally just privileges society has deemed important.
Prydania wrote:
As a Canadian? I find Americans and their deep, deep distrust of the government to be fundamentally, critically, laughably flawed. I find some aspects of your country completely absurd. The distrust of anything remotely resembling authority is one. The gun problem that stems from that is another.

Seangoli wrote:You are spouting nonsensical drivel with no coherent thought, little logic, and at the end of it all just angry opining at the clouds based on a truly astonishly low level of knowledge or understanding of the subject matter.

0% Capitalism

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