Thou doth protest too much.
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by New haven america » Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:17 pm
by Bread Herbert » Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:18 pm
by The Greater Ohio Valley » Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:25 pm
Totally Not OEP wrote:One, it allows politicians to turn men and women against each other by utilization of gender identity politics, through which they can appeal to one segment of the population and use them against the other.
Totally Not OEP wrote:It splits Husband from Wife
Totally Not OEP wrote:It also, obviously undermines our internal unity.
Totally Not OEP wrote:Secondly, the 19th Amendment transformed the nature of voting in of itself
Totally Not OEP wrote:With the 19th Amendment, voting became an affair of the individual
by The Greater Ohio Valley » Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:29 pm
by Edgelords United » Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:35 pm
by Telconi » Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:50 pm
San Lumen wrote:Telconi wrote:
Who said anyone couldn't disagree. If you want to sit at your dinner table and rant and rave about how you're not permitted to make innocent people suffer, that's fine. I am more worried with preventing the actual suffering.
How tyrannical.
There are loads of solutions. Implement unequal election laws, gerrymandering, voter suppression, electoral fraud, protests, riots, strikes, vandalism and sabotage, etc. etc.
What suffering are you preventing when that government was elected freely and fairly?
What’s tyrannical about it?
So you admit you want to rig elections and prevent those you disagree with from voting because they might outvote you. How dictatorial of you
Voter fraud is a crime and someone would blow the whistle. As to your other solutions very few would sympathize with you and welcome you being sent to prison
by Pacomia » Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:05 am
by Telconi » Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:22 am
Pacomia wrote:Can't understand why someone would be against democracy. What the hell?
Y'all should move to China. You'll love it there.
by Pacomia » Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:27 am
by Telconi » Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:33 am
by Kowani » Sat Jul 27, 2019 1:19 am
by Chernoslavia » Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:12 am
by Chernoslavia » Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:14 am
by Forsher » Sat Jul 27, 2019 5:32 am
by Forsher » Sat Jul 27, 2019 5:33 am
by Vassenor » Sat Jul 27, 2019 5:36 am
by Spirit of Hope » Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:20 am
Imperializt Russia wrote:Support biblical marriage! One SoH and as many wives and sex slaves as he can afford!
by Ichlein » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:39 am
Pacomia wrote:Can't understand why someone would be against democracy. What the hell?
Y'all should move to China. You'll love it there.
by Telconi » Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:11 am
Spirit of Hope wrote:Big Jim P wrote:
When someone loses, they try to change the rules to their benefit.
And if I'm a Republican who has been complaining about it for years before the election?
Lest we forget in 2012 Trump himself said the electoral college was a disaster for democracy.
Then in 2016, after it won him the presidency, he said it was genius.
So Democrats suddenly complaining about it aren't the only ones who have changed their minds.
As to why we should change the electoral college:
1. It does not work as the founders intended, they wanted the electors to choose the president not be bound by the popular vote of their states.
2. It does not make small states matter more, because it makes campaigns about swing states.
3. It allows someone to win the presidency even if they lost the popular vote, which goes against the principle of holding elections.
4. Through the use of FPTP it polarizes our democracy by making third parties non viable. Though this is a problem with the US electoral system in general.
by Spirit of Hope » Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:28 am
Telconi wrote:Spirit of Hope wrote:And if I'm a Republican who has been complaining about it for years before the election?
Lest we forget in 2012 Trump himself said the electoral college was a disaster for democracy.
Then in 2016, after it won him the presidency, he said it was genius.
So Democrats suddenly complaining about it aren't the only ones who have changed their minds.
As to why we should change the electoral college:
1. It does not work as the founders intended, they wanted the electors to choose the president not be bound by the popular vote of their states.
2. It does not make small states matter more, because it makes campaigns about swing states.
3. It allows someone to win the presidency even if they lost the popular vote, which goes against the principle of holding elections.
4. Through the use of FPTP it polarizes our democracy by making third parties non viable. Though this is a problem with the US electoral system in general.
Trump is hardly a paragon of virtue and contemplation.
Imperializt Russia wrote:Support biblical marriage! One SoH and as many wives and sex slaves as he can afford!
by Pacomia » Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:31 am
Forsher wrote:I'm surprised this is at the historical 60% mark.
Obviously the Electoral College is a silly idea. Remarkably, the people who made the USA's institutions were not infallible geniuses and they had some stinkers. Unlike the architects of NZ's institutions, however, they created an institutional setting that had no faith whatsoever in the value of democracy... which is probably why we've got rid of most of the bad bits now. In news that won't surprise anyone educated since, say, the 1980s or Herodotus... these settings become part of how people think about the world. In other words, that the US has the EC defines how Americans think and so on.
However, the bigger problem isn't the Electoral College but, rather, that the US has an electoral system where you don't need 50% of the votes to win. I can't remember if it was out of the "recent", post-WWII or just plain all US presidential elections but most of them *aren't* won by someone with more than 50% of the votes. As the OP points out the perverse outcome of the non-largest vote share candidate's winning has also happened in four of those occasions.
If you wanted... as some might be wont to do... treat a parliament as effectively indirectly electing a PM (making them much more analogous to an EC) then it should be pointed out that it's very hard to become PM without commanding more than 50% of the seats. To recap what this means... PMs not only have a greater mandate than American presidents but are actually part of an executive that's much more accountable to the legislature ("electorate"). Of course, you can still talk about parliamentary tyranny but remember how such "tyranny" comes to exist.
Now... I would never design a system to look like the USA's. Not only is it a complete antique designed to reflect early-modern beliefs about politics and early-modern social conditions, but I actively dislike almost all its principles. However, if you made me design such a system I would make the president command a super-majority of 60% and I would use something that involves a form of ranked choice at the voting stage. Which one, I'm not sure, but being able to say you command 60% of the pathetically small share of Americans who turn up and vote, even if many of those are second or third preferences, would be much healthier.
And, here's the thing, you wouldn't need to abolish the EC to get the electoral reform done. And, as that Popular Vote pact thing points out, abolishing the EC can happen without actually abolishing it since the States get to choose (in principle) how their electors know who to vote for. (There's got to be more to it than this, right? I mean, what's stopping a mostly Republican and mostly rural county state like IL from randomly selecting a single county to represent all of its counties... the Chicago vote currently sends IL's electors off to choose the Democrat but Chicago is mostly one county, right?)
So, yeah, the EC is undemocratic and is a big reason why the US is an immature democracy but I think ending FPP voting is more important these days. Even if you didn't require the super majority.
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