ICE detains US citizen for a month

[Scomagia]

Trump is a catastrophe unprecedented in American history, yes.

Not really. I disagree with him on a lot of things, but he is not the worst president we have had. Certainly not the best either.

I'd say he's the worst of his era but mostly because he's a cunt who happens to be at the wheel when all of the bureaucracy, executive overreach, and counter terrorism mission creep instituted by his last few predecessors has finally begun to manifest obvious consequences.

[Duhon]

Trump is a catastrophe unprecedented in American history, yes.

Not really. I disagree with him on a lot of things, but he is not the worst president we have had. Certainly not the best either.

Well, one could argue Nixon was far more dangerous, but even he had a sense of legal responsibility that Trump fundamentally lacked.

But whatever -- it would normally take a lot for me to assume that Trumpism is in fact infecting American institutions, but as with ICE, CBP, and the like, even if my suppositions here are exaggerations, better that than benumbed acquiescence, which is just what Trump wants.

[Rossiyaana]

I’m merely pointing out that ICE has gotten in trouble before, and continued to do the stuff they got in trouble for. Sure, there’s a system set up for dealing with problems within the government, but the leaders of the government who oversee that process and have final say over everything that goes on aren’t going to do anything. As they’ve demonstrated in the past.

I’d much rather see reform in ICE than have it abolished, but the reforms would need to be heavy.

Oh sure, I get it. I doubt they'll be able to slide much longer. The public pressure is high and there's good reason to believe there's dirty goings on. Something as simple as a lawsuit may be sufficient to get investigations going, investigations that may trigger much needed reforms. It may not happen that way, of course, but it's entirely possible.

But my problem is that the infrastructure is corrupted. There is almost nothing about that agency that isn't morally questionable. And for that matter, the entire DHS is kind of broken and backwards. If its not abolished, it needs to be completely rebuilt from the ground up with very direct supervision from Congress. But as it is now, it is not working and I doubt that anything will be done to change it with Trump as president.

[New haven america]

Trump is a catastrophe unprecedented in American history, yes.

Not really. I disagree with him on a lot of things, but he is not the worst president we have had. Certainly not the best either.

You don't have to be the worst to be a catastrophe or do unprecedented things. They're not mutually exclusive.

[Novus America]

Not really. I disagree with him on a lot of things, but he is not the worst president we have had. Certainly not the best either.

You don't have to be the worst to be a catastrophe or do unprecedented things. They're not mutually exclusive.

“catastrophe unprecedented in American history” implies the worst.
And this is not unprecedented.

[Scomagia]

Oh sure, I get it. I doubt they'll be able to slide much longer. The public pressure is high and there's good reason to believe there's dirty goings on. Something as simple as a lawsuit may be sufficient to get investigations going, investigations that may trigger much needed reforms. It may not happen that way, of course, but it's entirely possible.

But my problem is that the infrastructure is corrupted. There is almost nothing about that agency that isn't morally questionable. And for that matter, the entire DHS is kind of broken and backwards. If its not abolished, it needs to be completely rebuilt from the ground up with very direct supervision from Congress. But as it is now, it is not working and I doubt that anything will be done to change it with Trump as president.

The whole infrastructure? Are you sure about that? I'd be willing to agree that there's corruption in need of fixing but I don't see it as being as badly broken as you seem to. It needs to be blown open and heavily scrutinized for corruption and abuse but I suspect we'd have more that's salvageable than not. I simply do not believe that the majority of the agents and other personnel involved in ICE or any other agencies are out there operating in bad faith and trying to simply terrorise migrants.

I wouldn't trust Congress to rebuild a house of cards, let alone DHS. Congress is the reason that law enforcement is so militarized and so hostile to the very notion of transparency.

[Duhon]

But my problem is that the infrastructure is corrupted. There is almost nothing about that agency that isn't morally questionable. And for that matter, the entire DHS is kind of broken and backwards. If its not abolished, it needs to be completely rebuilt from the ground up with very direct supervision from Congress. But as it is now, it is not working and I doubt that anything will be done to change it with Trump as president.

The whole infrastructure? Are you sure about that? I'd be willing to agree that there's corruption in need of fixing but I don't see it as being as badly broken as you seem to. It needs to be blown open and heavily scrutinized for corruption and abuse but I suspect we'd have more that's salvageable than not. I simply do not believe that the majority of the agents and other personnel involved in ICE or any other agencies are out there operating in bad faith and trying to simply terrorise migrants.

I wouldn't trust Congress to rebuild a house of cards, let alone DHS. Congress is the reason that law enforcement is so militarized and so hostile to the very notion of transparency.

Well, something has got to give, and I for one would not place any confidence in the executive reforming itself.

[New haven america]

You don't have to be the worst to be a catastrophe or do unprecedented things. They're not mutually exclusive.

1. “catastrophe unprecedented in American history” implies the worst.
2. And this is not unprecedented.

1. No it doesn't, it jut means he's an unprecedented catastrophe in US history. As were Reagan, Nixon, Wilson, Jackson, etc...
2. Totally is. He's currently leading the worst case of human rights abuse in the Western World since the Cold War, had no government background, failed at business and was put in charge of the US economy, etc...

[Rossiyaana]

But my problem is that the infrastructure is corrupted. There is almost nothing about that agency that isn't morally questionable. And for that matter, the entire DHS is kind of broken and backwards. If its not abolished, it needs to be completely rebuilt from the ground up with very direct supervision from Congress. But as it is now, it is not working and I doubt that anything will be done to change it with Trump as president.

The whole infrastructure? Are you sure about that? I'd be willing to agree that there's corruption in need of fixing but I don't see it as being as badly broken as you seem to. It needs to be blown open and heavily scrutinized for corruption and abuse but I suspect we'd have more that's salvageable than not. I simply do not believe that the majority of the agents and other personnel involved in ICE or any other agencies are out there operating in bad faith and trying to simply terrorise migrants.

I wouldn't trust Congress to rebuild a house of cards, let alone DHS. Congress is the reason that law enforcement is so militarized and so hostile to the very notion of transparency.

I've started to put a lot more faith in Congress with the new freshman class. Both Democrat and Republicans seem to be a lot more dedicated to the people rather than their own power.

I'm sure there are a lot of ICE and CBP agents who are good people who are merely doing their jobs and are actively working to do good, but every single CBP and Ice agent I've ever gotten to know has expressed some morally questionable opinions about immigrants. Granted I haven't met many.

[New haven america]

But my problem is that the infrastructure is corrupted. There is almost nothing about that agency that isn't morally questionable. And for that matter, the entire DHS is kind of broken and backwards. If its not abolished, it needs to be completely rebuilt from the ground up with very direct supervision from Congress. But as it is now, it is not working and I doubt that anything will be done to change it with Trump as president.

The whole infrastructure? Are you sure about that? I'd be willing to agree that there's corruption in need of fixing but I don't see it as being as badly broken as you seem to. It needs to be blown open and heavily scrutinized for corruption and abuse but I suspect we'd have more that's salvageable than not. I simply do not believe that the majority of the agents and other personnel involved in ICE or any other agencies are out there operating in bad faith and trying to simply terrorise migrants.

I wouldn't trust Congress to rebuild a house of cards, let alone DHS. Congress is the reason that law enforcement is so militarized and so hostile to the very notion of transparency.

The most popular defense during the Nazi Nuremburg Trails was that those who acted out the holocaust were just acting under orders and had no little to no ill intention, they were just doing a job that they were told to do.

[Scomagia]

The whole infrastructure? Are you sure about that? I'd be willing to agree that there's corruption in need of fixing but I don't see it as being as badly broken as you seem to. It needs to be blown open and heavily scrutinized for corruption and abuse but I suspect we'd have more that's salvageable than not. I simply do not believe that the majority of the agents and other personnel involved in ICE or any other agencies are out there operating in bad faith and trying to simply terrorise migrants.

I wouldn't trust Congress to rebuild a house of cards, let alone DHS. Congress is the reason that law enforcement is so militarized and so hostile to the very notion of transparency.

Well, something has got to give, and I for one would not place any confidence in the executive reforming itself.

Not without help from the other branches. I'd agree.

[Novus America]

1. “catastrophe unprecedented in American history” implies the worst.
2. And this is not unprecedented.

1. No it doesn't, it jut means he's an unprecedented catastrophe in US history. As were Reagan, Nixon, Wilson, Jackson, etc...
2. Totally is. He's currently leading the worst case of human rights abuse in the Western World since the Cold War, had no government background, failed at business and was put in charge of the US economy, etc...

Well I mean I guess you could say no one is exactly like him but then it becomes so broad to be meaningless. Ever President is unique.

Worst case since the end of the Cold War in the entire Western World? No.
But even if it was you narrowed it so much to an arbitrarily short period of time in a limited place.

Look obviously we need a serious immigration detention overhaul but no need to make this out to be the most horrible event in history.

[Duhon]

The whole infrastructure? Are you sure about that? I'd be willing to agree that there's corruption in need of fixing but I don't see it as being as badly broken as you seem to. It needs to be blown open and heavily scrutinized for corruption and abuse but I suspect we'd have more that's salvageable than not. I simply do not believe that the majority of the agents and other personnel involved in ICE or any other agencies are out there operating in bad faith and trying to simply terrorise migrants.

I wouldn't trust Congress to rebuild a house of cards, let alone DHS. Congress is the reason that law enforcement is so militarized and so hostile to the very notion of transparency.

The most popular defense during the Nazi Nuremburg Trails was that those who acted out the holocaust were just acting under orders and had no little to no ill intention, they were just doing a job that they were told to do.

Which can be strictly true for at least some of them -- I mean, if you see Jews as the superpowerful enemy of the German people for whom coexistence is courting death, why wouldn't you want to do your job?

Same here, at least for some agents.

[Scomagia]

The whole infrastructure? Are you sure about that? I'd be willing to agree that there's corruption in need of fixing but I don't see it as being as badly broken as you seem to. It needs to be blown open and heavily scrutinized for corruption and abuse but I suspect we'd have more that's salvageable than not. I simply do not believe that the majority of the agents and other personnel involved in ICE or any other agencies are out there operating in bad faith and trying to simply terrorise migrants.

I wouldn't trust Congress to rebuild a house of cards, let alone DHS. Congress is the reason that law enforcement is so militarized and so hostile to the very notion of transparency.

I've started to put a lot more faith in Congress with the new freshman class. Both Democrat and Republicans seem to be a lot more dedicated to the people rather than their own power.

I'm sure there are a lot of ICE and CBP agents who are good people who are merely doing their jobs and are actively working to do good, but every single CBP and Ice agent I've ever gotten to know has expressed some morally questionable opinions about immigrants. Granted I haven't met many.

Congress definitely could help to fix things if, and only if, their constituents demand it. The problem has been that since 2001 Congress has been responding to the desire on many people's parts to ramp up security. If the public pull isn't there for a decrease in militarization and an increase in transparency then nothing will happen and it will get worse. But politicizing the whole damn thing is not going to help. At all.

[Novus America]

The whole infrastructure? Are you sure about that? I'd be willing to agree that there's corruption in need of fixing but I don't see it as being as badly broken as you seem to. It needs to be blown open and heavily scrutinized for corruption and abuse but I suspect we'd have more that's salvageable than not. I simply do not believe that the majority of the agents and other personnel involved in ICE or any other agencies are out there operating in bad faith and trying to simply terrorise migrants.

I wouldn't trust Congress to rebuild a house of cards, let alone DHS. Congress is the reason that law enforcement is so militarized and so hostile to the very notion of transparency.

The most popular defense during the Nazi Nuremburg Trails was that those who acted out the holocaust were just acting under orders and had no little to no ill intention, they were just doing a job that they were told to do.

And this is nothing remotely comparable.

[New haven america]

1. No it doesn't, it jut means he's an unprecedented catastrophe in US history. As were Reagan, Nixon, Wilson, Jackson, etc...
2. Totally is. He's currently leading the worst case of human rights abuse in the Western World since the Cold War, had no government background, failed at business and was put in charge of the US economy, etc...

1. Well I mean I guess you could say no one is exactly like him but then it becomes so broad to be meaningless. 2. Worst case since the end of the Cold War in the entire Western World? No.
3. But even if it was you narrowed it so much to an arbitrarily short period of time in a limited place.

1. It doesn't make it meaningless, it's just used to describe how bad he is.
2. Yep, totally. There are children that ICE has taken away and put into foster care that have been bounced around so much that they can't speak or walk, and their practice of doing this isn't stopping anytime soon/facilities. That segment on Gen Z is permanently fucked and will be living in mental wards/facilities and collecting disability checks for the rest of their lives.

[Scomagia]

The most popular defense during the Nazi Nuremburg Trails was that those who acted out the holocaust were just acting under orders and had no little to no ill intention, they were just doing a job that they were told to do.

And this is nothing remotely comparable.

Don't even bother.

[New haven america]

The most popular defense during the Nazi Nuremburg Trails was that those who acted out the holocaust were just acting under orders and had no little to no ill intention, they were just doing a job that they were told to do.

And this is nothing remotely comparable.

Totally is. Defending vile, evil, and immoral actions by saying "I was just doing what I was told" is the most commonly used excuse people who work in/for agencies that commit those vile and evil actions use.

I have no doubt that there are a lot, maybe even a majority, of ICE officials and officers who believe they're not doing anything wrong and are just following their orders. But that doesn't excuse the fact that they're doing some evil shit.

[Novus America]

1. Well I mean I guess you could say no one is exactly like him but then it becomes so broad to be meaningless. 2. Worst case since the end of the Cold War in the entire Western World? No.
3. But even if it was you narrowed it so much to an arbitrarily short period of time in a limited place.

1. It doesn't make it meaningless, it's just used to describe how bad he is.
2. Yep, totally. There are children that ICE has taken away and put into foster care that have been bounced around so much that they can't speak or walk, and their practice of doing this isn't stopping anytime soon/facilities. That segment on Gen Z is permanently fucked and will be living in mental wards/facilities and collecting disability checks for the rest of their lives.

It says absolutely nothing then. Not how bad he is. Just that you do not like him, along with a much of other presidents.

And I am not sure exactly what the bounced around you are referring to, but poor detention conditions is not something new or unique. Bad and in need of fixing? Sure.
But not something we have never seen before.

[New haven america]

And this is nothing remotely comparable.

Don't even bother.

I have yet to see you share which reforms you'd use to fix ICE. Get on that deary.

[New haven america]

1. It doesn't make it meaningless, it's just used to describe how bad he is.
2. Yep, totally. There are children that ICE has taken away and put into foster care that have been bounced around so much that they can't speak or walk, and their practice of doing this isn't stopping anytime soon/facilities. That segment on Gen Z is permanently fucked and will be living in mental wards/facilities and collecting disability checks for the rest of their lives.

1. It says absolutely nothing then. Not how bad he is. Just that you do not like him, along with a much of other presidents.

2. And I am not sure exactly what the bounced around you are referring to, 3. but poor detention conditions is not something new or unique. 4. Bad and in need of fixing? Sure.
But not something we have never seen before.

1. If that's what you want to believe, go ahead. That won't make it correct though.
2. Bounced around in the foster system=Being moved from house to house and family to family, most of the time involuntarily.
3. And that makes it ok?
4. No, this is something we've never seen before.

[New haven america]

The most popular defense during the Nazi Nuremburg Trails was that those who acted out the holocaust were just acting under orders and had no little to no ill intention, they were just doing a job that they were told to do.

Which can be strictly true for at least some of them -- I mean, if you see Jews as the superpowerful enemy of the German people for whom coexistence is courting death, why wouldn't you want to do your job?

Same here, at least for some agents.

While yes, it is true, that doesn't make it ok. Torturing and killing people, as well as forcibly separating families, is never ok.

[Novus America]

And this is nothing remotely comparable.

Totally is. Defending vile, evil, and immoral actions by saying "I was just doing what I was told" is the most commonly used excuse people who work in/for agencies that commit those vile and evil actions use.

I have no doubt that there are a lot, maybe even a majority, of ICE officials and officers who believe they're not doing anything wrong and are just following their orders. But that doesn't excuse the fact that they're doing some evil shit.

No, because the actions are not remotely comparable. And it gets complicated. You cannot just do whatever you want, but you cannot just do absolutely anything you are told. There is a lot of nuance here.

Also most the biggest problems come from the use of outside contractors that are not even ICE.

[Novus America]

1. It says absolutely nothing then. Not how bad he is. Just that you do not like him, along with a much of other presidents.

2. And I am not sure exactly what the bounced around you are referring to, 3. but poor detention conditions is not something new or unique. 4. Bad and in need of fixing? Sure.
But not something we have never seen before.

1. If that's what you want to believe, go ahead. That won't make it correct though.
2. Bounced around in the foster system=Being moved from house to house and family to family, most of the time involuntarily.
3. And that makes it ok?
4. No, this is something we've never seen before.

The first part is not even an argument.
And I never said the current conditions are okay, they are not.
But this type of thing is hardly something we have never seen before.

Yes we need to fix things but this is not something really that new. Bad immigration detention conditions is not new or uncommon unfortunately.

Yes we should still work to make them better obviously though.

[New haven america]

Totally is. Defending vile, evil, and immoral actions by saying "I was just doing what I was told" is the most commonly used excuse people who work in/for agencies that commit those vile and evil actions use.

I have no doubt that there are a lot, maybe even a majority, of ICE officials and officers who believe they're not doing anything wrong and are just following their orders. But that doesn't excuse the fact that they're doing some evil shit.

1. No, because the actions are not remotely comparable. 2. And it gets complicated. You cannot just do whatever you want, but you cannot just do absolutely anything you are told. There is a lot of nuance here.

3. Also most the biggest problems come from the use of outside contractors that are not even ICE.

1A. Yet.
1B. IDK, I think forcibly separating families, mentally stunting children, treating those who have done nothing wrong as criminals, locking them up in concentration camps, etc... Is getting pretty close to being comparable.
2. Doesn't matter in the slightest.
3. They're also an issue, I'm not gonna deny that. But that same logic still applies, they think they're doing a good thing when in reality they're committing a crime against humanity.