ICE detains US citizen for a month

[Cedoria]

Time to abolish ICE and DHS to protect the rights of US citizens. Either create new agencies with better practice or subsume their functions into others. Both these agencies are far too big for their britches. Conservatives are supposed to be constitutionalises. Let's see them put their money where their mouths are.

ERO is not all of ICE. HSI is not involved in these issues.
DHS is not even an agency.

DHS is a department. I'm aware, it's in it's name after all.

Both should be abolished nonetheless.

CIA probably should be as well, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. The bureaucracy needs a good clean-out regardless.

[Cedoria]

The situation with the various departments and agencies minding immigration and border control can be solved and depoliticized, but that won't happen while Trump and his goonderlings are in office. The cruelty will remain the point of many apprehensions while they stay and have the power to dictate how anyone who appears remotely foreign must be treated.

It's hardly just a Trump or GOP problem sadly. Far too many 'security agencies' in the US have far too much power just by invoking the phrase of national security, without need for oversight or justification.

The whole thing really needs a root-and-branch reorganisation, from top to bottom.

[Rojava Free State]

The situation with the various departments and agencies minding immigration and border control can be solved and depoliticized, but that won't happen while Trump and his goonderlings are in office. The cruelty will remain the point of many apprehensions while they stay and have the power to dictate how anyone who appears remotely foreign must be treated.

It's hardly just a Trump or GOP problem sadly. Far too many 'security agencies' in the US have far too much power just by invoking the phrase of national security, without need for oversight or justification.

The whole thing really needs a root-and-branch reorganisation, from top to bottom.

I personally believe that the powers that be are slowly expanding their authority because their power itself is undemocratic and they don't want anyone challenging that power in any way. They aren't doing this for our security as much as for theirs

[Mettaton-EX]

poll needs an option for "designate ice as a domestic terror group"

[Cedoria]

It's hardly just a Trump or GOP problem sadly. Far too many 'security agencies' in the US have far too much power just by invoking the phrase of national security, without need for oversight or justification.

The whole thing really needs a root-and-branch reorganisation, from top to bottom.

I personally believe that the powers that be are slowly expanding their authority because their power itself is undemocratic and they don't want anyone challenging that power in any way. They aren't doing this for our security as much as for theirs

That is generally how power works, yes. I'm inclined to agree.

[Scomagia]

And straight into the generalized partisan hostility. Lovely.

I'm sorry, I missed the part where Democrats had become the party of government all of a sudden.

I thought it went without saying given that there's at least some Dems on record as supporting abolition of ICE, so I didn't include it. If you'd rather I state the bleeding obvious everytime I say something, I can.

Sure, Dems too, whatever. But they aren't the ones mostly blocking changes on this particular point.

Any problem with American law enforcement and counter terror agencies is directly the fault of both parties. I recall the Patriot act and virtually all of its extensions, as well as similar laws, being massive bipartisan events. Both parties continue to oppose the reforms needed to increase transparency of and prevent abuse by law enforcement agencies.

[Rojava Free State]

poll needs an option for "designate ice as a domestic terror group"

this caught me so off guard

[Samudera Darussalam]

poll needs an option for "designate ice as a domestic terror group"

.....okay, isn't that a bit of a stretch? I mean, I disagree with ICE's practices, but designate them as a terror group is overboard.

[Scomagia]

poll needs an option for "designate ice as a domestic terror group"

.....okay, isn't that a bit of a stretch? I mean, I disagree with ICE's practices, but designate them as a terror group is overboard.

It's just a lame partisan joke.

Although they could be serious, I guess.

[Novus America]

ERO is not all of ICE. HSI is not involved in these issues.
DHS is not even an agency.

DHS is a department. I'm aware, it's in it's name after all.

Both should be abolished nonetheless.

CIA probably should be as well, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. The bureaucracy needs a good clean-out regardless.

Why should ICE HSI be abolished per se because of ERO scandals? It can an should maybe be placed under CBP, but still.
Abolish DHS and then you have to figure out what to do with its sub-components.
Sending them back to their prior departments does not solve the redundancy and lack of communications issues of before.

Yes we definitely need a major restructuring and overhaul of the federal government but it is much more complicated than memes.

[Katganistan]

What laws enabled this abuse of a citizen? Change those laws.

You're not supposed to be held more than I believe 48-72hrs without arraignment. They'll probably still get away with it.

[Ifreann]

poll needs an option for "designate ice as a domestic terror group"

Now you're speakin' my language.

[Novus America]

One big problem here is we do not even apparently have a good way to check if someone is a citizen or not.
Government record keeping is a disaster.

[Cedoria]

I'm sorry, I missed the part where Democrats had become the party of government all of a sudden.

I thought it went without saying given that there's at least some Dems on record as supporting abolition of ICE, so I didn't include it. If you'd rather I state the bleeding obvious everytime I say something, I can.

Sure, Dems too, whatever. But they aren't the ones mostly blocking changes on this particular point.

Any problem with American law enforcement and counter terror agencies is directly the fault of both parties. I recall the Patriot act and virtually all of its extensions, as well as similar laws, being massive bipartisan events. Both parties continue to oppose the reforms needed to increase transparency of and prevent abuse by law enforcement agencies.

No question. But one party doesn't constantly go on about being the party of freedom and specifically constitutional freedom.

If you want more credit on those issues, you should have higher standards on them. I've already said here that both parties have been terrible on this issue.

[Cedoria]

DHS is a department. I'm aware, it's in it's name after all.

Both should be abolished nonetheless.

CIA probably should be as well, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. The bureaucracy needs a good clean-out regardless.

Why should ICE HSI be abolished per se because of ERO scandals? It can an should maybe be placed under CBP, but still.
Abolish DHS and then you have to figure out what to do with its sub-components.
Sending them back to their prior departments does not solve the redundancy and lack of communications issues of before.

Yes we definitely need a major restructuring and overhaul of the federal government but it is much more complicated than memes.

DHS stuff should indeed be sent back to previous departments. Consolidating it was one of those knee-jerk responses to 9/11. Understandable, but did a lot more harm then good.


ICE can have it's constitutent parts split up or at least be brought under proper judicial oversight. Having one agency with that level of unrestrained power is just asking for abuse of authority.

I'm well aware that it's complicated thanks. Stating that simple fact does not change anything.

[Cedoria]

poll needs an option for "designate ice as a domestic terror group"

.....okay, isn't that a bit of a stretch? I mean, I disagree with ICE's practices, but designate them as a terror group is overboard.

… It was probably sarcastic.

[Samudera Darussalam]

.....okay, isn't that a bit of a stretch? I mean, I disagree with ICE's practices, but designate them as a terror group is overboard.

… It was probably sarcastic.

Welp, maybe I misunderstood the joke
Thanks for the clarifications, you and Scomagia.

[Novus America]

Why should ICE HSI be abolished per se because of ERO scandals? It can an should maybe be placed under CBP, but still.
Abolish DHS and then you have to figure out what to do with its sub-components.
Sending them back to their prior departments does not solve the redundancy and lack of communications issues of before.

Yes we definitely need a major restructuring and overhaul of the federal government but it is much more complicated than memes.

DHS stuff should indeed be sent back to previous departments. Consolidating it was one of those knee-jerk responses to 9/11. Understandable, but did a lot more harm then good.


ICE can have it's constitutent parts split up or at least be brought under proper judicial oversight. Having one agency with that level of unrestrained power is just asking for abuse of authority.

I'm well aware that it's complicated thanks. Stating that simple fact does not change anything.

The old system was not better though.
I agree there needs to be better oversight but rolling back the clock to the year 2000 does not really help.

[Forsher]

One big problem here is we do not even apparently have a good way to check if someone is a citizen or not.
Government record keeping is a disaster.

Do you really want a massive list which is digitally accessible in which your personal details exist just for the purpose of seeing who is and isn't a citizen?

Remember, it's not enough for it to have your name. They'll have to have your date of birth and, given the size of the country, almost certainly place of registration and parental details in order to be absolutely confident you're you. And they'll also probably have your, I believe all Americans have one, social security number too as an additional check.

Is that a record system you really actually want?

In principle, there should be a list of legally admitted non-citizens, which would be self-wiping on departure. This can consist of a name, passport country and passport number... no further details required. Such a list should be able to naturally develop into an overstayers list. And, of course, if it's not a digital only system the persons involved should have some physical evidence on them themselves as a "check".

Obviously you'd be thinking that this doesn't help for people who entered the country without being put into any system: the undocumented. Well, okay, now it should be a question... and maybe this was your point all along... of following the citizenship laws' logic. In the US this has a simple opening step: place of birth. The following steps should, again, be simple. But there are obviously glaring complications.

For example, what happens when everything's going too slowly? The tradeoff this thread seems to be working with is liberty versus security. The traditional answer is that it's better to err on the side of caution: presumption of innocence. But we don't need to be traditional, do we? Catch and release, my friends. Is it better to be detained while the state apparatus catch up or is it better to have an ankle monitor slapped on you but otherwise be free to be about your business (citizen)?

There's an enormous difference between loss of privacy and loss of liberty. There's an enormous difference between being able to monitor and find individuals from aggregate data and having all individuals on a list to start with (if you're going to do this abandon all pretence and just issue mandatory ID cards and finger printing regimes).

[Novus America]

One big problem here is we do not even apparently have a good way to check if someone is a citizen or not.
Government record keeping is a disaster.

Do you really want a massive list which is digitally accessible in which your personal details exist just for the purpose of seeing who is and isn't a citizen?

Remember, it's not enough for it to have your name. They'll have to have your date of birth and, given the size of the country, almost certainly place of registration and parental details in order to be absolutely confident you're you. And they'll also probably have your, I believe all Americans have one, social security number too as an additional check.

Is that a record system you really actually want?

In principle, there should be a list of legally admitted non-citizens, which would be self-wiping on departure. This can consist of a name, passport country and passport number... no further details required. Such a list should be able to naturally develop into an overstayers list. And, of course, if it's not a digital only system the persons involved should have some physical evidence on them themselves as a "check".

Obviously you'd be thinking that this doesn't help for people who entered the country without being put into any system: the undocumented. Well, okay, now it should be a question... and maybe this was your point all along... of following the citizenship laws' logic. In the US this has a simple opening step: place of birth. The following steps should, again, be simple. But there are obviously glaring complications.

For example, what happens when everything's going too slowly? The tradeoff this thread seems to be working with is liberty versus security. The traditional answer is that it's better to err on the side of caution: presumption of innocence. But we don't need to be traditional, do we? Catch and release, my friends. Is it better to be detained while the state apparatus catch up or is it better to have an ankle monitor slapped on you but otherwise be free to be about your business (citizen)?

There's an enormous difference between loss of privacy and loss of liberty. There's an enormous difference between being able to monitor and find individuals from aggregate data and having all individuals on a list to start with (if you're going to do this abandon all pretence and just issue mandatory ID cards and finger printing regimes).

The Social Security administration already has a list of basically all citizens and residents.
Each state should have a list of all birth certificates issued there.

Selective service should have all males in the system.

The information exists.

I am aware of the accessibility vs security paradox but still there should be a way to confirm that takes limited time.

[Rojava Free State]

What laws enabled this abuse of a citizen? Change those laws.

You're not supposed to be held more than I believe 48-72hrs without arraignment. They'll probably still get away with it.

The government doesn't like to punish themselves

[Teachian]

Still not sure where I fall on reform/abolish, but ICE could make a better case for themselves if they stopped acting like the villains in a dog movie. Just saying.

[Duhon]

Of course this assumes ICE and the like have not been politicized to hell, taken over by plain bigots, and made an arm of a regime deliberately inculcating terror against nonwhites who happen to live along the border... or are caught being nonwhite by an immigration officer.

[US-SSR]

Abolish ICE. Abolish CBP.

[Scomagia]

Of course this assumes ICE and the like have not been politicized to hell, taken over by plain bigots, and made an arm of a regime deliberately inculcating terror against nonwhites who happen to live along the border... or are caught being nonwhite by an immigration officer.

This sounds like catastrophizing.