NationStates

Novus America wrote:

New haven america wrote:1. No it's not. In US prisons at least, the people who go there did commit actual crimes and are serving a state mandated sentence. The people in ICE's concentration camps have mostly done nothing illegal nor do they have a set period before they're released. They did everything they were legally supposed to do and are getting punished for it by getting sent to concentration camps where they will remain indefinitely.
2. Uh, no, that'd be a ghetto.
3. This is a really bad example to pick, mainly becaue of the time period. Or do you not remember that the US had concentration camps in the 1940's for Japanese Americans and immigrants?

1. Actually pre trial detention is a thing. 2. Also all those being held in by ICE are suspected of being in the US illegally. The burden is on the asylum seeker to prove their asylum claim, not the other way around.
And again the average time is 34 days.
3. That type of ghetto is a type of concentration camp really.
4. And yes the Japanese interment camps were actual concentration camps.

Chernoslavia wrote:

Militant Costco wrote:-It's run by the government (or at the very minimum, approved and supported).
-The government (in this case, the United States) deems the people inside these camps (illegal immigrants or whatever you call them) undesirable, and, if you consider Trump's word as official statements, "dangerous" (remember, these illegal immigrants are "gang members" and Mexico is sending rapists *nods*).
-Mexico is still in the Mexican Drug War, a war that has been going on for 12 years now and has killed more people than both Iraq and Afghanistan. Not to mention, the current administration considers the border to be "in crisis" and thus, has sent U.S. troops to patrol it.

I don't know about you, but your definition lines up, word for word.

Clearly you didn't properly read what I've said then.

- Yeah it's run by the government, that doesn't necessarily mean they're concentration camp.
- No...? They're put there because they aren't supposed to fucking be here.
- Your point?

Militant Costco wrote:

Chernoslavia wrote:
Clearly you didn't properly read what I've said then.

- Yeah it's run by the government, that doesn't necessarily mean they're concentration camp.
- No...? They're put there because they aren't supposed to fucking be here.
- Your point?

-Don't list it as a point then (even though you are absolutely correct, concentration camps have to actually be sanctioned by the state).
-That's what the Germans said about the Jews. And technically under German law, it was legal. Just saying.
You say what's the same, I literally point out what is the same, as a rebuttal against your claim that these centers are not like "actual concentration camps".



Your point?

New haven america wrote:

Novus America wrote:
1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palesti ... ugee_camps

2. Not all enter at a legal point of entry. 3. And no, the average time is 30 days.
https://www.justice.gov/archives/dag/fi ... 1/download
Not 6 plus months. Most have NOT stayed 6+ months.
And even if you enter at a legal port of entry they can still hold you for preliminary review of your claim.

4. Again the issue of orders is complicated. You cannot always follow all orders, but you cannot disobey all orders either. There is nuance.
5. And none of that other stuff is going to happen. There have been 12 deaths this year, which while tragic is quite far removed from what you are talking about.

6. And finally we have to strike a balance. We need to enforce border security and make sure asylum seekers are properly vetted. But we need to do so while keeping conditions tolerable and processing claims without excessive delay. We are NOT currently doing so, absolutely.
But we should.

1. Yeah, there's a difference between those refugee camps and the US' concentration camps. The people in those refugee camps are actually allowed to leave and they were set up to support them, the US' camps were set up to keep them away from the public and they're not allowed out by their own free will.
2. But the vast majority have, and got punished for it.
3. So explain that to the people who have been in those camps for up to 2 years and see how they feel about that.
4. So should that person follow their CO's orders or not? And if they do follow them, do you think they're in the wrong? (Even though they're technically not)
5. Aw, faith in the US government to not be terrible. I wonder what that feels like?
6. Or humanity as a collective whole could actually grow a brain, learn to work together and stop fearing/hating each other, thus causing us to not need to stupid imaginary lines we call boarders. Oh wait, here I am thinking about this with logic, my bad.

Chernoslavia wrote:

Militant Costco wrote:
-Don't list it as a point then (even though you are absolutely correct, concentration camps have to actually be sanctioned by the state).
-That's what the Germans said about the Jews. And technically under German law, it was legal. Just saying.
You say what's the same, I literally point out what is the same, as a rebuttal against your claim that these centers are not like "actual concentration camps".



Your point?

True that concentration camps were always state run but something being run by the state doesn't make em concentration camps. Would you consider prisons concentration camps?

My point is these are not concentration camps.

New haven america wrote:

Novus America wrote:
1. Actually pre trial detention is a thing. 2. Also all those being held in by ICE are suspected of being in the US illegally. The burden is on the asylum seeker to prove their asylum claim, not the other way around.
And again the average time is 34 days.
3. That type of ghetto is a type of concentration camp really.
4. And yes the Japanese interment camps were actual concentration camps.

1. Yeah, that's obviously true, or we wouldn't have those camps to begin with.
2. Yeah, they got picked up after requesting asylum and being allowed to enter the country legally, that obviously means they're here illegally.
3. No it's not, it's a ghetto. That's why we have the word: Ghetto.
4. As are the ones the US government is currently running, except they have worse conditions.

Militant Costco wrote:

Novus America wrote:
That is a bad definition. Under that definition literally an prison or detention facility can be considered a concentration camp.
How would making conditions in a concentration camp make a concentration camp not a concentration camp?
And how is a prison with inadequate facilities automatically a concentration camp?

A concentration camp is a prison. A prison is anywhere where people are forced to be as directed by the state.

The difference is a concentration camp is not exclusively for use of the criminal justice system.

Nakena wrote:They should pay compensation cash for every day he spend in detention.

If they wont he should get some good lawyers and sue them into oblivion.

Novus America wrote:

New haven america wrote:1. Yeah, that's obviously true, or we wouldn't have those camps to begin with.
2. Yeah, they got picked up after requesting asylum and being allowed to enter the country legally, that obviously means they're here illegally.
3. No it's not, it's a ghetto. That's why we have the word: Ghetto.
4. As are the ones the US government is currently running, except they have worse conditions.

Not all crossed legally but it does not really change things. Under refugee law the burden of proof is on the asylum seeker to prove their case is legitimate.
And even if someone claims asylum at a port of entry it does not mean they get full refugee status instantly. You need to at least give them a basic health and background check before letting them run free, otherwise anyone could cross into US no questions asked.

Ghetto has multiple meanings, but an Iranian concentration camp is a type of ghetto.

The current immigration detainment is very different. We are not rounding up all members of one ethnic group from a certain area. It is detaining people suspected of being in the US illegally and those awaiting the preliminary processing of their asylum claims.

Very different.

Yes conditions are bad, and absolutely must improve. We need proper facilities designed with family accommodation, not a network of our sourced private prisons and ad hoc facilities.
The problem is how they are being detained more than why.

Also obviously we need a way to quickly verify who is a citizen or legal resident. Citizens should not be held obviously, unless suspected of obtaining their citizenship fraudulently.

Novus America wrote:

Militant Costco wrote:A concentration camp is a prison. A prison is anywhere where people are forced to be as directed by the state.

The difference is a concentration camp is not exclusively for use of the criminal justice system.

But you have failed to even provide a difference at all.
You gave a definition so vague and over broad it can apply to any prison.

Zurkerx wrote:ICE definitely needs reforms but abolishing it is silly since practically another agency would takeover or be rebranded/renamed.

Rojava Free State wrote:

Novus America wrote:
Not all crossed legally but it does not really change things. Under refugee law the burden of proof is on the asylum seeker to prove their case is legitimate.
And even if someone claims asylum at a port of entry it does not mean they get full refugee status instantly. You need to at least give them a basic health and background check before letting them run free, otherwise anyone could cross into US no questions asked.

Ghetto has multiple meanings, but an Iranian concentration camp is a type of ghetto.

The current immigration detainment is very different. We are not rounding up all members of one ethnic group from a certain area. It is detaining people suspected of being in the US illegally and those awaiting the preliminary processing of their asylum claims.

Very different.

Yes conditions are bad, and absolutely must improve. We need proper facilities designed with family accommodation, not a network of our sourced private prisons and ad hoc facilities.
The problem is how they are being detained more than why.

Also obviously we need a way to quickly verify who is a citizen or legal resident. Citizens should not be held obviously, unless suspected of obtaining their citizenship fraudulently.

Concentration camps aren't about rounding people up for their ethnicity. I'm not gonna repeat the definition again because I'm not about to be an absolute tool but that's not what it takes for something to be considered a concentration camp. A soviet Gulag where anyone Stalin doesn't like is sent is a concentration camp..It's about the conditions people are held in and the amount of people, not why they're there.if the president tomorrow decided to just randomly arrest 10000 Americans for no reason and put them in a place where disease is rampant, there's no food, the lights don't work and there's overcrowding, it would be a concentration camp. I know it's ingrained in everyone's mind that concentration camp=nazis rounding Jews up, but that's not the only kind of concentration camp. There are others, and I'm not saying that the migrants are being treated as bad as the Jews were by the nazis. None of the places are auschwitz if that makes you happy to hear.

Why are we even debating what to call it? A rose is a ride by any other name. The detention centers suck, people die there. Does it even matter what you call them? It doesn't make the conditions any better

Militant Costco wrote:

Novus America wrote:
But you have failed to even provide a difference at all.
You gave a definition so vague and over broad it can apply to any prison.

Maybe because a concentration camp is a prison. The difference i, a concentration camp is "a place where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labor or to await mass execution."

If you think its vague and applies to almost every prison, maybe that says something about the conditions of some prisons.

Honestly, I think the debate should be rather on if its "internment" or "incarceration", because arguing if its a prison or not is like arguing if a townhome is a home.

Rojava Free State wrote:

Militant Costco wrote:Maybe because a concentration camp is a prison. The difference i, a concentration camp is "a place where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labor or to await mass execution."

If you think its vague and applies to almost every prison, maybe that says something about the conditions of some prisons.

Honestly, I think the debate should be rather on if its "internment" or "incarceration", because arguing if its a prison or not is like arguing if a townhome is a home.

I swear to god they're gonna probably lock this thread for threadjacking or going off topic or whatever. Can we all please discuss what we can do to fix this situation at the border and ICE's abuse of power?

Militant Costco wrote:

Novus America wrote:
But you have failed to even provide a difference at all.
You gave a definition so vague and over broad it can apply to any prison.

Maybe because a concentration camp is a prison. The difference i, a concentration camp is "a place where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labor or to await mass execution."

If you think its vague and applies to almost every prison, maybe that says something about the conditions of some prisons.

Honestly, I think the debate should be rather on if its "internment" or "incarceration", because arguing if its a prison or not is like arguing if a townhome is a home.

Militant Costco wrote:

Rojava Free State wrote:
I swear to god they're gonna probably lock this thread for threadjacking or going off topic or whatever. Can we all please discuss what we can do to fix this situation at the border and ICE's abuse of power?

This is nowhere near threadjacking, whatever other NS'ers views are on these facilities, its still an actual debate about ICE and its role in detaining Americans and non-Americans.

But yeah, sure. We're basically circling around a dictionary here.

Militant Costco wrote:

Rojava Free State wrote:
I swear to god they're gonna probably lock this thread for threadjacking or going off topic or whatever. Can we all please discuss what we can do to fix this situation at the border and ICE's abuse of power?

This is nowhere near threadjacking, whatever other NS'ers views are on these facilities, its still an actual debate about ICE and its role in detaining Americans and non-Americans.

But yeah, sure. We're basically circling around a dictionary here.

Rojava Free State wrote:Who here thinks ICE should have a civilian oversight committee like many police departments? Let's start there

Rojava Free State wrote:Who here thinks ICE should have a civilian oversight committee like many police departments? Let's start there

Ifreann wrote:

Rojava Free State wrote:Who here thinks ICE should have a civilian oversight committee like many police departments? Let's start there

ICE are civilians.

Rojava Free State wrote:Who here thinks ICE should have a civilian oversight committee like many police departments? Let's start there

Novus America wrote:

Ifreann wrote:ICE are civilians.

In this context civilians means someone who is not a sworn police officer.