ICE detains US citizen for a month

[New haven america]

1. No it's not. In US prisons at least, the people who go there did commit actual crimes and are serving a state mandated sentence. The people in ICE's concentration camps have mostly done nothing illegal nor do they have a set period before they're released. They did everything they were legally supposed to do and are getting punished for it by getting sent to concentration camps where they will remain indefinitely.
2. Uh, no, that'd be a ghetto.
3. This is a really bad example to pick, mainly becaue of the time period. Or do you not remember that the US had concentration camps in the 1940's for Japanese Americans and immigrants?

1. Actually pre trial detention is a thing. 2. Also all those being held in by ICE are suspected of being in the US illegally. The burden is on the asylum seeker to prove their asylum claim, not the other way around.
And again the average time is 34 days.
3. That type of ghetto is a type of concentration camp really.
4. And yes the Japanese interment camps were actual concentration camps.

1. Yeah, that's obviously true, or we wouldn't have those camps to begin with.
2. Yeah, they got picked up after requesting asylum and being allowed to enter the country legally, that obviously means they're here illegally.
3. No it's not, it's a ghetto. That's why we have the word: Ghetto.
4. As are the ones the US government is currently running, except they have worse conditions.

[Militant Costco]

-It's run by the government (or at the very minimum, approved and supported).
-The government (in this case, the United States) deems the people inside these camps (illegal immigrants or whatever you call them) undesirable, and, if you consider Trump's word as official statements, "dangerous" (remember, these illegal immigrants are "gang members" and Mexico is sending rapists *nods*).
-Mexico is still in the Mexican Drug War, a war that has been going on for 12 years now and has killed more people than both Iraq and Afghanistan. Not to mention, the current administration considers the border to be "in crisis" and thus, has sent U.S. troops to patrol it.

I don't know about you, but your definition lines up, word for word.

Clearly you didn't properly read what I've said then.

- Yeah it's run by the government, that doesn't necessarily mean they're concentration camp.
- No...? They're put there because they aren't supposed to fucking be here.
- Your point?

-Don't list it as a point then (even though you are absolutely correct, concentration camps have to actually be sanctioned by the state).
-That's what the Germans said about the Jews. And technically under German law, it was legal. Just saying.
You say what's the same, I literally point out what is the same, as a rebuttal against your claim that these centers are not like "actual concentration camps".



Your point?

[Chernoslavia]

Clearly you didn't properly read what I've said then.

- Yeah it's run by the government, that doesn't necessarily mean they're concentration camp.
- No...? They're put there because they aren't supposed to fucking be here.
- Your point?

-Don't list it as a point then (even though you are absolutely correct, concentration camps have to actually be sanctioned by the state).
-That's what the Germans said about the Jews. And technically under German law, it was legal. Just saying.
You say what's the same, I literally point out what is the same, as a rebuttal against your claim that these centers are not like "actual concentration camps".



Your point?

True that concentration camps were always state run but something being run by the state doesn't make em concentration camps. Would you consider prisons concentration camps?

My point is these are not concentration camps.

[Nakena]

They should pay compensation cash for every day he spend in detention.

If they wont he should get some good lawyers and sue them into oblivion.

[Novus America]

1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palesti ... ugee_camps

2. Not all enter at a legal point of entry. 3. And no, the average time is 30 days.
https://www.justice.gov/archives/dag/fi ... 1/download
Not 6 plus months. Most have NOT stayed 6+ months.
And even if you enter at a legal port of entry they can still hold you for preliminary review of your claim.

4. Again the issue of orders is complicated. You cannot always follow all orders, but you cannot disobey all orders either. There is nuance.
5. And none of that other stuff is going to happen. There have been 12 deaths this year, which while tragic is quite far removed from what you are talking about.

6. And finally we have to strike a balance. We need to enforce border security and make sure asylum seekers are properly vetted. But we need to do so while keeping conditions tolerable and processing claims without excessive delay. We are NOT currently doing so, absolutely.
But we should.

1. Yeah, there's a difference between those refugee camps and the US' concentration camps. The people in those refugee camps are actually allowed to leave and they were set up to support them, the US' camps were set up to keep them away from the public and they're not allowed out by their own free will.
2. But the vast majority have, and got punished for it.
3. So explain that to the people who have been in those camps for up to 2 years and see how they feel about that.
4. So should that person follow their CO's orders or not? And if they do follow them, do you think they're in the wrong? (Even though they're technically not)
5. Aw, faith in the US government to not be terrible. I wonder what that feels like?
6. Or humanity as a collective whole could actually grow a brain, learn to work together and stop fearing/hating each other, thus causing us to not need to stupid imaginary lines we call boarders. Oh wait, here I am thinking about this with logic, my bad.

Actually no, people in those UN camps are often restricted from leaving and they exist because the countries they are in refuse to give them any citizenship or permanent residence.
The exist for the purpose of isolating Palestinian Arabs from other Arabs.

It is impossible to remain a unwilling registered refugee in the US more than 50 years.
AFTER they are found to be legitimate refugees they live in normal homes. Not refugee camps.

Even if you crossed at a legal point, you still can be held for your preliminary hearing. You still have the burden to prove your claim valid.

Exceptions are not the rule. You said most spend 6+ months, you were objectively incorrect.
The average time is 34 days. That is a fact.

In the case of ordering someone shot illegally, not they should not follow that order. But again things are not always that simple.

The US government does do bad things sometimes, but that does not mean it is going to suddenly launch a full scale genocide for the lols.

Oh and now the open borders spiel. We already did that one too.
What is the point when people just repeat the same arguments without listening?
Open borders is not in fact logical.

[Militant Costco]

-Don't list it as a point then (even though you are absolutely correct, concentration camps have to actually be sanctioned by the state).
-That's what the Germans said about the Jews. And technically under German law, it was legal. Just saying.
You say what's the same, I literally point out what is the same, as a rebuttal against your claim that these centers are not like "actual concentration camps".



Your point?

True that concentration camps were always state run but something being run by the state doesn't make em concentration camps. Would you consider prisons concentration camps?

My point is these are not concentration camps.

Again, a concentration camp IS a prison. By its literal definition, a prison is just where people are forcibly detained under state rule.

So no, a prison is not a concentration camp in the same way a square is a rectangle, but a rectangle is not a square.

As far what is the difference, I'll just paste what came up on Google

" "it is a place where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labor or to await mass execution."

[Novus America]

1. Actually pre trial detention is a thing. 2. Also all those being held in by ICE are suspected of being in the US illegally. The burden is on the asylum seeker to prove their asylum claim, not the other way around.
And again the average time is 34 days.
3. That type of ghetto is a type of concentration camp really.
4. And yes the Japanese interment camps were actual concentration camps.

1. Yeah, that's obviously true, or we wouldn't have those camps to begin with.
2. Yeah, they got picked up after requesting asylum and being allowed to enter the country legally, that obviously means they're here illegally.
3. No it's not, it's a ghetto. That's why we have the word: Ghetto.
4. As are the ones the US government is currently running, except they have worse conditions.

Not all crossed legally but it does not really change things. Under refugee law the burden of proof is on the asylum seeker to prove their case is legitimate.
And even if someone claims asylum at a port of entry it does not mean they get full refugee status instantly. You need to at least give them a basic health and background check before letting them run free, otherwise anyone could cross into US no questions asked.

Ghetto has multiple meanings, but an urban concentration camp is a type of ghetto.

The current immigration detainment is very different. We are not rounding up all members of one ethnic group from a certain area. It is detaining people suspected of being in the US illegally and those awaiting the preliminary processing of their asylum claims.

Very different.

Yes conditions are bad, and absolutely must improve. We need proper facilities designed with family accommodation, not a network of our sourced private prisons and ad hoc facilities.
The problem is how they are being detained more than why.

Also obviously we need a way to quickly verify who is a citizen or legal resident. Citizens should not be held obviously, unless suspected of obtaining their citizenship fraudulently.

[Novus America]

That is a bad definition. Under that definition literally an prison or detention facility can be considered a concentration camp.
How would making conditions in a concentration camp make a concentration camp not a concentration camp?
And how is a prison with inadequate facilities automatically a concentration camp?

A concentration camp is a prison. A prison is anywhere where people are forced to be as directed by the state.

The difference is a concentration camp is not exclusively for use of the criminal justice system.

But you have failed to even provide a difference at all.
You gave a definition so vague and over broad it can apply to any prison.

[Novus America]

They should pay compensation cash for every day he spend in detention.

If they wont he should get some good lawyers and sue them into oblivion.

Certainly they should give this person a large settlement payment. I am almost certain they will and if not he should sue. Obviously this was wrong.

[Rojava Free State]

1. Yeah, that's obviously true, or we wouldn't have those camps to begin with.
2. Yeah, they got picked up after requesting asylum and being allowed to enter the country legally, that obviously means they're here illegally.
3. No it's not, it's a ghetto. That's why we have the word: Ghetto.
4. As are the ones the US government is currently running, except they have worse conditions.

Not all crossed legally but it does not really change things. Under refugee law the burden of proof is on the asylum seeker to prove their case is legitimate.
And even if someone claims asylum at a port of entry it does not mean they get full refugee status instantly. You need to at least give them a basic health and background check before letting them run free, otherwise anyone could cross into US no questions asked.

Ghetto has multiple meanings, but an Iranian concentration camp is a type of ghetto.

The current immigration detainment is very different. We are not rounding up all members of one ethnic group from a certain area. It is detaining people suspected of being in the US illegally and those awaiting the preliminary processing of their asylum claims.

Very different.

Yes conditions are bad, and absolutely must improve. We need proper facilities designed with family accommodation, not a network of our sourced private prisons and ad hoc facilities.
The problem is how they are being detained more than why.

Also obviously we need a way to quickly verify who is a citizen or legal resident. Citizens should not be held obviously, unless suspected of obtaining their citizenship fraudulently.

Concentration camps aren't about rounding people up for their ethnicity. I'm not gonna repeat the definition again because I'm not about to be an absolute tool but that's not what it takes for something to be considered a concentration camp. A soviet Gulag where anyone Stalin doesn't like is sent is a concentration camp..It's about the conditions people are held in and the amount of people, not why they're there.if the president tomorrow decided to just randomly arrest 10000 Americans for no reason and put them in a place where disease is rampant, there's no food, the lights don't work and there's overcrowding, it would be a concentration camp. I know it's ingrained in everyone's mind that concentration camp=nazis rounding Jews up, but that's not the only kind of concentration camp. There are others, and I'm not saying that the migrants are being treated as bad as the Jews were by the nazis. None of the places are auschwitz if that makes you happy to hear.

Why are we even debating what to call it? A rose is a ride by any other name. The detention centers suck, people die there. Does it even matter what you call them? It doesn't make the conditions any better

[Zurkerx]

ICE definitely needs reforms but abolishing it is silly since practically another agency would takeover or be rebranded/renamed.

[Militant Costco]

A concentration camp is a prison. A prison is anywhere where people are forced to be as directed by the state.

The difference is a concentration camp is not exclusively for use of the criminal justice system.

But you have failed to even provide a difference at all.
You gave a definition so vague and over broad it can apply to any prison.

Maybe because a concentration camp is a prison. The difference i, a concentration camp is "a place where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labor or to await mass execution."

If you think its vague and applies to almost every prison, maybe that says something about the conditions of some prisons.

Honestly, I think the debate should be rather on if its "internment" or "incarceration", because arguing if its a prison or not is like arguing if a townhome is a home.

[The New California Republic]

ICE definitely needs reforms but abolishing it is silly since practically another agency would takeover or be rebranded/renamed.

As someone previously said, as a terrorist group...

[Novus America]

Not all crossed legally but it does not really change things. Under refugee law the burden of proof is on the asylum seeker to prove their case is legitimate.
And even if someone claims asylum at a port of entry it does not mean they get full refugee status instantly. You need to at least give them a basic health and background check before letting them run free, otherwise anyone could cross into US no questions asked.

Ghetto has multiple meanings, but an Iranian concentration camp is a type of ghetto.

The current immigration detainment is very different. We are not rounding up all members of one ethnic group from a certain area. It is detaining people suspected of being in the US illegally and those awaiting the preliminary processing of their asylum claims.

Very different.

Yes conditions are bad, and absolutely must improve. We need proper facilities designed with family accommodation, not a network of our sourced private prisons and ad hoc facilities.
The problem is how they are being detained more than why.

Also obviously we need a way to quickly verify who is a citizen or legal resident. Citizens should not be held obviously, unless suspected of obtaining their citizenship fraudulently.

Concentration camps aren't about rounding people up for their ethnicity. I'm not gonna repeat the definition again because I'm not about to be an absolute tool but that's not what it takes for something to be considered a concentration camp. A soviet Gulag where anyone Stalin doesn't like is sent is a concentration camp..It's about the conditions people are held in and the amount of people, not why they're there.if the president tomorrow decided to just randomly arrest 10000 Americans for no reason and put them in a place where disease is rampant, there's no food, the lights don't work and there's overcrowding, it would be a concentration camp. I know it's ingrained in everyone's mind that concentration camp=nazis rounding Jews up, but that's not the only kind of concentration camp. There are others, and I'm not saying that the migrants are being treated as bad as the Jews were by the nazis. None of the places are auschwitz if that makes you happy to hear.

Why are we even debating what to call it? A rose is a ride by any other name. The detention centers suck, people die there. Does it even matter what you call them? It doesn't make the conditions any better

But these people are not there for no reason.
Yes the wording is not the most important thing, but I still think your wording is off the mark.
Because according to it you can place people in a camp solely because of race, but have it not be a concentration camp just because you make it nicer.

Yes the current detention conditions do absolutely suck, and obviously need to be fixed.
We need a proper network of purpose built immigration centers with decent conditions and family housing. Not the current ad hoc mess.

[Rojava Free State]

But you have failed to even provide a difference at all.
You gave a definition so vague and over broad it can apply to any prison.

Maybe because a concentration camp is a prison. The difference i, a concentration camp is "a place where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labor or to await mass execution."

If you think its vague and applies to almost every prison, maybe that says something about the conditions of some prisons.

Honestly, I think the debate should be rather on if its "internment" or "incarceration", because arguing if its a prison or not is like arguing if a townhome is a home.

I swear to god they're gonna probably lock this thread for threadjacking or going off topic or whatever. Can we all please discuss what we can do to fix this situation at the border and ICE's abuse of power?

[Militant Costco]

Maybe because a concentration camp is a prison. The difference i, a concentration camp is "a place where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labor or to await mass execution."

If you think its vague and applies to almost every prison, maybe that says something about the conditions of some prisons.

Honestly, I think the debate should be rather on if its "internment" or "incarceration", because arguing if its a prison or not is like arguing if a townhome is a home.

I swear to god they're gonna probably lock this thread for threadjacking or going off topic or whatever. Can we all please discuss what we can do to fix this situation at the border and ICE's abuse of power?

This is nowhere near threadjacking, whatever other NS'ers views are on these facilities, its still an actual debate about ICE and its role in detaining Americans and non-Americans.

But yeah, sure. We're basically circling around a dictionary here.

[Novus America]

But you have failed to even provide a difference at all.
You gave a definition so vague and over broad it can apply to any prison.

Maybe because a concentration camp is a prison. The difference i, a concentration camp is "a place where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labor or to await mass execution."

If you think its vague and applies to almost every prison, maybe that says something about the conditions of some prisons.

Honestly, I think the debate should be rather on if its "internment" or "incarceration", because arguing if its a prison or not is like arguing if a townhome is a home.

But your definition just says a large number of people are deliberately imprisoned. It says especially if it is for political prisoners or persecuted minorities, but does not make that a requirement. That is the problem. That part is what matters.

Yes a townhouse is a home, but we have a clear definition of what makes it different from other homes.

But yes, this argument is not actually helpful.

[Rojava Free State]

I swear to god they're gonna probably lock this thread for threadjacking or going off topic or whatever. Can we all please discuss what we can do to fix this situation at the border and ICE's abuse of power?

This is nowhere near threadjacking, whatever other NS'ers views are on these facilities, its still an actual debate about ICE and its role in detaining Americans and non-Americans.

But yeah, sure. We're basically circling around a dictionary here.

Even if it isnt, I guarantee you that what will happen is this.

People who don't think the centers are concentration camps will say they arent. People who say they are will continue saying they are. For three days it'll be back and forth arguments and neither side will change their opinion and then eventually people will lose interest in the thread as they always do with all threads and it'll only end then. I'm all for debates but when it just turns into repetitive back and forth bickering, that's when i draw the line

[Novus America]

I swear to god they're gonna probably lock this thread for threadjacking or going off topic or whatever. Can we all please discuss what we can do to fix this situation at the border and ICE's abuse of power?

This is nowhere near threadjacking, whatever other NS'ers views are on these facilities, its still an actual debate about ICE and its role in detaining Americans and non-Americans.

But yeah, sure. We're basically circling around a dictionary here.

That is true. It is not at all helpful.
We should probably discuss how to improve actual conditions vs semantics.

[Rojava Free State]

Who here thinks ICE should have a civilian oversight committee like many police departments? Let's start there

[Novus America]

Who here thinks ICE should have a civilian oversight committee like many police departments? Let's start there

Not a bad idea, at least for the ERO side. Some sort of outside nonpartisan review commission would be a good idea.

We especially need an actual government run (with civilian outside non partisan oversight) purpose built immigration detention system, with decent conditions, available family housing, and special facilities for those with special needs.

Not simply bring out private and county prisons to hold people, as such facilities are completely ill suited for the task.

[Ifreann]

Who here thinks ICE should have a civilian oversight committee like many police departments? Let's start there

ICE are civilians.

[Novus America]

Who here thinks ICE should have a civilian oversight committee like many police departments? Let's start there

ICE are civilians.

In this context civilians means someone who is not a sworn police officer.

[Militant Costco]

Who here thinks ICE should have a civilian oversight committee like many police departments? Let's start there

This would add a lot of bureaucracy in a system known to be already at max capacity of its current bureaucracy.

Good time to remind people, that most illegal immigrants probably cross illegally cause of the long wait times of the entire immigration system, in no small part due to its bureaucracy. Adding more seems to just be insult to injury.

[Ifreann]

ICE are civilians.

In this context civilians means someone who is not a sworn police officer.

Police officers are civilians, but the people running ICE are also not police officers.