ICE detains US citizen for a month

[Chernoslavia]

Lol you're still calling them that?

Concentration camp: a place where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labor or to await mass execution.

ICE does indeed run such places

Going by your own definition, no they're not.

[New haven america]

Concentration camp: a place where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labor or to await mass execution.

ICE does indeed run such places

Accurate terminology triggers rightists though.

People aren't purposefully dying there, so they're obviously not concentration camps. Duh.

[Chernoslavia]

Concentration camp: a place where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labor or to await mass execution.

ICE does indeed run such places

Accurate terminology triggers rightists though.

It isn't accurate, it's misleading. No surprise to see you're defending it though.

[Rojava Free State]

Accurate terminology triggers rightists though.

It isn't accurate, it's misleading. No surprise to see you're defending it though.

It's literally the definition dude. Your argument would be like if my house got it's roof and doors torn off by a tornado and then you said "you didn't get hit by a tornado. A tornado hit my city and bulldozed the whole town down. Nothing was left standing. You just got hit by some wind."

[Chernoslavia]

Accurate terminology triggers rightists though.

People aren't purposefully dying there, so they're obviously not concentration camps. Duh.

People in Denmark have social services, guess that means they're a Socialist country dur hur!

[Novus America]

1. Detaining unauthorized immigrants is valid, and not automatically wrong.

2. Yes the conditions have been completely inadequate but that to completely different than throwing millions in gas chambers.

3. And yes nuance matters. 4. Yes trying to strike a balance between doing what you are told but not going to far with it matters. It is not that easy to say nobody should ever do anything you say is wrong.

1A. Except their not detaining illegal immigrants, they're detaining asylum seekers. Being an asylum seeker is perfectly fucking legal.
1B. In the fashion ICE and Gang is doing it? Haha, no, still a crime against humanity.
2. Inadequate doesn't even begin to describe it considering they're creating a group of mentally stunted US citizens. Also, I repeat, they're not throwing them in gas chambers yet.
3. Not in the cases I'm talking about, no.
4. If someone's working for ICE and one of their superiors tells them to shoot a legal asylum seeker because their complaints were annoying them, would it be ok if they did it?

You can detain asylum seekers too, long enough to give a preliminary processing of claims.
Claiming asylum is legal, but it does not give you a carte blanche.
Crossing the border illegally is still illegal. It does not automatically invalidate your asylum claim but your claiming asylum does not exempt you from all immigration laws either.

Also you realize the UN has been holding some 50+ years?
We only do so an average of 30 days.

No, it would not be okay to shoot them, but not all situations are that clear cut.
And we are not putting them in gas chambers ever. The over the top hyperbole is not helpful.

Problems with foster care is not exclusive to immigrants either. That is another issue.

Yes we absolutely need a complete overhaul of our immigration detention and asylum processing system which was not at all designed for current conditions. We need proper facilities designed to accommodate families instead of relying on outsourcing to private prisons and setting up ad hoc facilities yes.

The nature of immigration has dramatically changed and we need to adapt. The system currently in place was designed for a smaller number of single males.

[Rojava Free State]

Concentration camp: a place where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labor or to await mass execution.

ICE does indeed run such places

Going by your own definition, no they're not.

Large number of people: check
Deliberately imprisoned in relatively small area: check
Inadequate facilities: check

I'm sorry what part of the definition doesn't fit? The especially political prisoners or "sometimes to provide forced labor or await mass execution"? Those are certain auxiliary features of a concentration camp. The main part is the mass detention, and crappy living conditions

[Chernoslavia]

Going by your own definition, no they're not.

Large number of people: check
Deliberately imprisoned in relatively small area: check
Inadequate facilities: check

I'm sorry what part of the definition doesn't fit? The especially political prisoners or "sometimes to provide forced labor or await mass execution"? Those are certain auxiliary features of a concentration camp. The main part is the mass detention, and crappy living conditions

You're over simplifying the meaning now. That's pretty scummy. Again, by your own previous definition, they aren't concentration camps.

[Rojava Free State]

Large number of people: check
Deliberately imprisoned in relatively small area: check
Inadequate facilities: check

I'm sorry what part of the definition doesn't fit? The especially political prisoners or "sometimes to provide forced labor or await mass execution"? Those are certain auxiliary features of a concentration camp. The main part is the mass detention, and crappy living conditions

You're over simplifying the meaning now. That's pretty scummy. Again, by your own previous definition, they aren't concentration camps.

No I'm not. That is the definition and what's scummy is that a bunch of strong armed thugs are snatching people up without worrying about being punished for it. What part of the definition isn't correct? You gonna tell me or are you just gonna keep saying "no you're wrong cause you're wrong?"

I'm not oversimplifying anything again. I posted the definition and when you said "that isn't an ICE camp," I posted a simplified version of said definition because apparently you didn't read the first one

[Novus America]

Going by your own definition, no they're not.

Large number of people: check
Deliberately imprisoned in relatively small area: check
Inadequate facilities: check

I'm sorry what part of the definition doesn't fit? The especially political prisoners or "sometimes to provide forced labor or await mass execution"? Those are certain auxiliary features of a concentration camp. The main part is the mass detention, and crappy living conditions

We have been over this how many times?
By your definition any prison with bad conditions is a concentration camp.

Conditions are not the defining feature at all.
If I put all Muslims in a camp, it would still be a concentration camp even if the whole camp consisted of and idealized suburb, each family with their own house and all.
Conditions are irrelevant. If the Nazi camps were concentration camps not because of the horrific conditions, but because of the purpose. Even if they had improved conditions they would not be less a concentration camp.

Conversely Venezuelan prisons are not concentration camps despite the inmates literally eating each other. They are just super shitty prisons.

[Chernoslavia]

You're over simplifying the meaning now. That's pretty scummy. Again, by your own previous definition, they aren't concentration camps.

No I'm not. That is the definition and what's scummy is that a bunch of strong armed thugs are snatching people up without worrying about being punished for it. What part of the definition isn't correct? You gonna tell me or are you just gonna keep saying "no you're wrong cause you're wrong?"

Depends. You gonna tell me why you changed your definition?

[New haven america]

1A. Except their not detaining illegal immigrants, they're detaining asylum seekers. Being an asylum seeker is perfectly fucking legal.
1B. In the fashion ICE and Gang is doing it? Haha, no, still a crime against humanity.
2. Inadequate doesn't even begin to describe it considering they're creating a group of mentally stunted US citizens. Also, I repeat, they're not throwing them in gas chambers yet.
3. Not in the cases I'm talking about, no.
4. If someone's working for ICE and one of their superiors tells them to shoot a legal asylum seeker because their complaints were annoying them, would it be ok if they did it?

1. You can detain asylum seekers too, long enough to give a preliminary processing of claims.
Claiming asylum is legal, but it does not give you a carte blanche.
Crossing the border illegally is still illegal. It does not automatically invalidate your asylum claim but your claiming asylum does not exempt you from all immigration laws either.

2. Also you realize the UN has been holding some 50+ years?
We only do so an average of 30 days.

3. No, it would not be okay to shoot them, but not all situations are that clear cut.
4. And we are not putting them in gas chambers ever. The over the top hyperbole is not helpful.

5. Problems with foster care is not exclusive to immigrants either. That is another issue.

6. Yes we absolutely need a complete overhaul of our immigration detention and asylum processing system which was not at all designed for current conditions. We need proper facilities designed to accommodate families instead of relying on outsourcing to private prisons and setting up ad hoc facilities yes.

The nature of immigration has dramatically changed and we need to adapt. The system currently in place was designed for a smaller number of single males.

1. You can't be detained for as long as the people in the camps currently are, nor did they cross the border illegally, they came requesting asylum in the us and entered through the legal port of entry as asylum seeking migrants, and then got sent to concentration camps where most of them have stayed for up to 6+ months.
2. [Citation Needed]
3. But he's just following orders. He's not doing anything wrong within his chain of command, so why is it wrong if he's not technically doing anything wrong? (Hell, him not shooting the person would be considered wrong in his chain of command)
4. It doesn't have to be gas chambers. Cremations centers, forced starvation and dehydration (Like in the Ottoman Empire), firing lines, the list goes on... If the news ever came out that the US was doing this shit, I wouldn't be surprised.
5. Forcibly removing their children and mentally stunting them forever, however, is.
6. I agree that it needs to be changed, but jut because you reform draconian systems doesn't make them any less draconian.

[Rojava Free State]

No I'm not. That is the definition and what's scummy is that a bunch of strong armed thugs are snatching people up without worrying about being punished for it. What part of the definition isn't correct? You gonna tell me or are you just gonna keep saying "no you're wrong cause you're wrong?"

Depends. You gonna tell me why you changed your definition?

Oh my god, I didn't freaking change it. "Concentration camp: a place where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labor or to await mass execution. " this was the definition. Because you read this and your response was "but ICE doesn't run concentration camps," I then simplified it by saying

large numbers of people detained: check
Crappy living conditions (relatively small space, inadequate facilities): check

And then you somehow thought this was a different definition from the one above. It's reworded, but it's the exact same thing. It's like saying "the dog is running," and " running up the street was a dog. "

[New haven america]

Large number of people: check
Deliberately imprisoned in relatively small area: check
Inadequate facilities: check

I'm sorry what part of the definition doesn't fit? The especially political prisoners or "sometimes to provide forced labor or await mass execution"? Those are certain auxiliary features of a concentration camp. The main part is the mass detention, and crappy living conditions

We have been over this how many times?
1. By your definition any prison with bad conditions is a concentration camp.

Conditions are not the defining feature at all.
2. If I put all Muslims in a camp, it would still be a concentration camp even if the whole camp consisted of and idealized suburb, each family with their own house and all.
Conditions are irrelevant. 3. If the Nazi camps were concentration camps not because of the horrific conditions, but because of the purpose. Even if they had improved conditions they would not be less a concentration camp.

Conversely Venezuelan prisons are not concentration camps despite the inmates literally eating each other. They are just super shitty prisons.

1. No it's not. In US prisons at least, the people who go there did commit actual crimes and are serving a state mandated sentence. The people in ICE's concentration camps have mostly done nothing illegal nor do they have a set period before they're released. They did everything they were legally supposed to do and are getting punished for it by getting sent to concentration camps where they will remain indefinitely.
2. Uh, no, that'd be a ghetto.
3. This is a really bad example to pick, mainly becaue of the time period. Or do you not remember that the US had concentration camps in the 1940's for Japanese Americans and immigrants?

[Vassenor]

We're not allowed to call them concentration camps because it hurts the feelings of some hardline rightists to have to consider they might be championing an objectively bad thing.

[Rojava Free State]

Large number of people: check
Deliberately imprisoned in relatively small area: check
Inadequate facilities: check

I'm sorry what part of the definition doesn't fit? The especially political prisoners or "sometimes to provide forced labor or await mass execution"? Those are certain auxiliary features of a concentration camp. The main part is the mass detention, and crappy living conditions

We have been over this how many times?
By your definition any prison with bad conditions is a concentration camp.

Conditions are not the defining feature at all.
If I put all Muslims in a camp, it would still be a concentration camp even if the whole camp consisted of and idealized suburb, each family with their own house and all.
Conditions are irrelevant. If the Nazi camps were concentration camps not because of the horrific conditions, but because of the purpose. Even if they had improved conditions they would not be less a concentration camp.

Conversely Venezuelan prisons are not concentration camps despite the inmates literally eating each other. They are just super shitty prisons.

"Concentration camp: a place where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labor or to await mass execution." I can't believe I had to post this for the fiftieth time. This is the definition of a concentration camp, okay? It is the complete and official meaning of the word. The issue isn't that people are detained, it's that they are in absolutely terrible conditions and packed in.

https://thepostglob.com/2019/06/19/repo ... acilities/

https://www.newsweek.com/concentration- ... er-1444843

Experts have even stated that these centers do fall within the definition of a concentration camp. This isn't just people exaggerating

[Chernoslavia]

Depends. You gonna tell me why you changed your definition?

Oh my god, I didn't freaking change it. "Concentration camp: a place where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labor or to await mass execution. " this was the definition. Because you read this and your response was "but ICE doesn't run concentration camps," I then simplified it by saying

large numbers of people detained: check
Crappy living conditions (relatively small space, inadequate facilities): check

And then you somehow thought this was a different definition from the one above. It's reworded, but it's the exact same thing. It's like saying "the dog is running," and " running up the street was a dog. "

Except actual concentration camps through out history have been used for people that a government deems dangerous or undesirable during times of conflict and suppression of dissent. In what fucking way are these centers the same? They're not. If people come to the country illegally they get sent to a facility then taken back to their home country, they're not fucking concentration camps.

[Chernoslavia]

We're not allowed to call them concentration camps because it hurts the feelings of some hardline rightists to have to consider they might be championing an objectively bad thing.

The irony in this post.

[Novus America]

1. You can detain asylum seekers too, long enough to give a preliminary processing of claims.
Claiming asylum is legal, but it does not give you a carte blanche.
Crossing the border illegally is still illegal. It does not automatically invalidate your asylum claim but your claiming asylum does not exempt you from all immigration laws either.

2. Also you realize the UN has been holding some 50+ years?
We only do so an average of 30 days.

3. No, it would not be okay to shoot them, but not all situations are that clear cut.
4. And we are not putting them in gas chambers ever. The over the top hyperbole is not helpful.

5. Problems with foster care is not exclusive to immigrants either. That is another issue.

6. Yes we absolutely need a complete overhaul of our immigration detention and asylum processing system which was not at all designed for current conditions. We need proper facilities designed to accommodate families instead of relying on outsourcing to private prisons and setting up ad hoc facilities yes.

The nature of immigration has dramatically changed and we need to adapt. The system currently in place was designed for a smaller number of single males.

1. You can't be detained for as long as the people in the camps currently are, nor did they cross the border illegally, they came requesting asylum in the us and entered through the legal port of entry as asylum seeking migrants, and then got sent to concentration camps where most of them have stayed for up to 6+ months.
2. [Citation Needed]
3. But he's just following orders. He's not doing anything wrong within his chain of command, so why is it wrong if he's not technically doing anything wrong?
4. It doesn't have to be gas chambers. Cremations centers, forced starvation and dehydration, firing lines, the list goes on...
5. Forcibly removing their children and mentally stunting them forever, however, is.
6. I agree that it needs to be changed, but jut because you reform draconian systems doesn't make them any less draconian.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palesti ... ugee_camps

Not all enter at a legal point of entry. And no, the average time is 30 days.
https://www.justice.gov/archives/dag/fi ... 1/download
Not 6 plus months. Most have NOT stayed 6+ months.
And even if you enter at a legal port of entry they can still hold you for preliminary review of your claim.

Again the issue of orders is complicated. You cannot always follow all orders, but you cannot disobey all orders either. There is nuance.
And none of that other stuff is going to happen. There have been 12 deaths this year, which while tragic is quite far removed from what you are talking about.

And finally we have to strike a balance. We need to enforce border security and make sure asylum seekers are properly vetted. But we need to do so while keeping conditions tolerable and processing claims without excessive delay. We are NOT currently doing so, absolutely.
But we should.

[Militant Costco]

Oh my god, I didn't freaking change it. "Concentration camp: a place where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labor or to await mass execution. " this was the definition. Because you read this and your response was "but ICE doesn't run concentration camps," I then simplified it by saying

large numbers of people detained: check
Crappy living conditions (relatively small space, inadequate facilities): check

And then you somehow thought this was a different definition from the one above. It's reworded, but it's the exact same thing. It's like saying "the dog is running," and " running up the street was a dog. "

Except actual concentration camps through out history have been used for people that a government deems dangerous or undesirable during times of conflict and suppression of dissent. In what fucking way are these centers the same?

-It's run by the government (or at the very minimum, approved and supported).
-The government (in this case, the United States) deems the people inside these camps (illegal immigrants or whatever you call them) undesirable, and, if you consider Trump's word as official statements, "dangerous" (remember, these illegal immigrants are "gang members" and Mexico is sending rapists *nods*).
-Mexico is still in the Mexican Drug War, a war that has been going on for 12 years now and has killed more people than both Iraq and Afghanistan. Not to mention, the current administration considers the border to be "in crisis" and thus, has sent U.S. troops to patrol it.

I don't know about you, but your definition lines up, word for word.

[Novus America]

We have been over this how many times?
By your definition any prison with bad conditions is a concentration camp.

Conditions are not the defining feature at all.
If I put all Muslims in a camp, it would still be a concentration camp even if the whole camp consisted of and idealized suburb, each family with their own house and all.
Conditions are irrelevant. If the Nazi camps were concentration camps not because of the horrific conditions, but because of the purpose. Even if they had improved conditions they would not be less a concentration camp.

Conversely Venezuelan prisons are not concentration camps despite the inmates literally eating each other. They are just super shitty prisons.

"Concentration camp: a place where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labor or to await mass execution." I can't believe I had to post this for the fiftieth time. This is the definition of a concentration camp, okay? It is the complete and official meaning of the word. The issue isn't that people are detained, it's that they are in absolutely terrible conditions and packed in.

https://thepostglob.com/2019/06/19/repo ... acilities/

https://www.newsweek.com/concentration- ... er-1444843

Experts have even stated that these centers do fall within the definition of a concentration camp. This isn't just people exaggerating

That is a bad definition. Under that definition literally an prison or detention facility can be considered a concentration camp.
How would making conditions in a concentration camp make a concentration camp not a concentration camp?
And how is a prison with inadequate facilities automatically a concentration camp?

[New haven america]

1. You can't be detained for as long as the people in the camps currently are, nor did they cross the border illegally, they came requesting asylum in the us and entered through the legal port of entry as asylum seeking migrants, and then got sent to concentration camps where most of them have stayed for up to 6+ months.
2. [Citation Needed]
3. But he's just following orders. He's not doing anything wrong within his chain of command, so why is it wrong if he's not technically doing anything wrong?
4. It doesn't have to be gas chambers. Cremations centers, forced starvation and dehydration, firing lines, the list goes on...
5. Forcibly removing their children and mentally stunting them forever, however, is.
6. I agree that it needs to be changed, but jut because you reform draconian systems doesn't make them any less draconian.

1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palesti ... ugee_camps

2. Not all enter at a legal point of entry. 3. And no, the average time is 30 days.
https://www.justice.gov/archives/dag/fi ... 1/download
Not 6 plus months. Most have NOT stayed 6+ months.
And even if you enter at a legal port of entry they can still hold you for preliminary review of your claim.

4. Again the issue of orders is complicated. You cannot always follow all orders, but you cannot disobey all orders either. There is nuance.
5. And none of that other stuff is going to happen. There have been 12 deaths this year, which while tragic is quite far removed from what you are talking about.

6. And finally we have to strike a balance. We need to enforce border security and make sure asylum seekers are properly vetted. But we need to do so while keeping conditions tolerable and processing claims without excessive delay. We are NOT currently doing so, absolutely.
But we should.

1. Yeah, there's a difference between those refugee camps and the US' concentration camps. The people in those refugee camps are actually allowed to leave and they were set up to support them, the US' camps were set up to keep them away from the public and they're not allowed out by their own free will.
2. But the vast majority have, and got punished for it.
3. So explain that to the people who have been in those camps for up to 2 years and see how they feel about that.
4. So should that person follow their CO's orders or not? And if they do follow them, do you think they're in the wrong? (Even though they're technically not)
5. Aw, faith in the US government to not be terrible. I wonder what that feels like?
6. Or humanity as a collective whole could actually grow a brain, learn to work together and stop fearing/hating each other, thus causing us to not need to stupid imaginary lines we call boarders. Oh wait, here I am thinking about this with logic, my bad.

[Chernoslavia]

Except actual concentration camps through out history have been used for people that a government deems dangerous or undesirable during times of conflict and suppression of dissent. In what fucking way are these centers the same?

-It's run by the government (or at the very minimum, approved and supported).
-The government (in this case, the United States) deems the people inside these camps (illegal immigrants or whatever you call them) undesirable, and, if you consider Trump's word as official statements, "dangerous" (remember, these illegal immigrants are "gang members" and Mexico is sending rapists *nods*).
-Mexico is still in the Mexican Drug War, a war that has been going on for 12 years now and has killed more people than both Iraq and Afghanistan. Not to mention, the current administration considers the border to be "in crisis" and thus, has sent U.S. troops to patrol it.

I don't know about you, but your definition lines up, word for word.

Clearly you didn't properly read what I've said then.

- Yeah it's run by the government, that doesn't necessarily mean they're concentration camp.
- No...? They're put there because they aren't supposed to fucking be here.
- Your point?

[Novus America]

We have been over this how many times?
1. By your definition any prison with bad conditions is a concentration camp.

Conditions are not the defining feature at all.
2. If I put all Muslims in a camp, it would still be a concentration camp even if the whole camp consisted of and idealized suburb, each family with their own house and all.
Conditions are irrelevant. 3. If the Nazi camps were concentration camps not because of the horrific conditions, but because of the purpose. Even if they had improved conditions they would not be less a concentration camp.

Conversely Venezuelan prisons are not concentration camps despite the inmates literally eating each other. They are just super shitty prisons.

1. No it's not. In US prisons at least, the people who go there did commit actual crimes and are serving a state mandated sentence. The people in ICE's concentration camps have mostly done nothing illegal nor do they have a set period before they're released. They did everything they were legally supposed to do and are getting punished for it by getting sent to concentration camps where they will remain indefinitely.
2. Uh, no, that'd be a ghetto.
3. This is a really bad example to pick, mainly becaue of the time period. Or do you not remember that the US had concentration camps in the 1940's for Japanese Americans and immigrants?

Actually pre trial detention is a thing. Also all those being held in by ICE are suspected of being in the US illegally. The burden is on the asylum seeker to prove their asylum claim, not the other way around.
And again the average time is 34 days.
That type of ghetto is a type of concentration camp really.
And yes the Japanese interment camps were actual concentration camps.

[Militant Costco]

"Concentration camp: a place where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labor or to await mass execution." I can't believe I had to post this for the fiftieth time. This is the definition of a concentration camp, okay? It is the complete and official meaning of the word. The issue isn't that people are detained, it's that they are in absolutely terrible conditions and packed in.

https://thepostglob.com/2019/06/19/repo ... acilities/

https://www.newsweek.com/concentration- ... er-1444843

Experts have even stated that these centers do fall within the definition of a concentration camp. This isn't just people exaggerating

That is a bad definition. Under that definition literally an prison or detention facility can be considered a concentration camp.
How would making conditions in a concentration camp make a concentration camp not a concentration camp?
And how is a prison with inadequate facilities automatically a concentration camp?

A concentration camp is a prison. A prison is anywhere where people are forced to be as directed by the state.

The difference is a concentration camp is not exclusively for use of the criminal justice system.