NationStates

Posted: **Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:30 am**

Jack Thomas Lang wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Communism and fascism aren't equal, don't be ridiculous.

In terms of pure ideology, perhaps not. Practically, though, without a doubt. Communist (or Socialist if you're being picky) regimes have caused untold suffering and misery and are almost always authoritarian dictatorships.

Is there a regime in human history that hasn't caused untold suffering and misery? I'm not aware of one. I guess that means that all ideologies are morally equivalent. Good and bad are actually the same.

Rojava Free State wrote:
Ifreann wrote:And you're wrong. Congratulations.

Communism and fascism aren't equal, don't be ridiculous.

I know what you're saying, but what you're saying is wrong, and moreover is being wrong in a harmful and dangerous way so I'm not going to indulge it.

#1 you didn't even say why it's wrong. Nice argument

Do you want me to keep repeating that antifa is a thing people do, not a group they join?

#2. 100 million people killed by communism worldwide and counting. Sounds pretty equal to me man

I'm sure that does sound equal to you. I'm sure that you very consistently judge ideologies by body count. Hey, quick question, how many billions of people have died under capitalism? In fact, don't answer. Maybe just think about it. This thread isn't really about which ideology you think is the worst and why.

#3. And once again, you can't even argue why it's wrong. Miss me with your sarcasm if you won't even attempt to make your case as to why these thugs aren't as bad as the fascists they claim to fight against (half of which are actually random republicans, patriots prayer and news reporters).

If you can state a thing to be true without providing an argument for that being the case then surely I can contradict you without providing an argument.

Rojava Free State wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Do you actually think that violence is always wrong?

If yes, maybe have a think about why the police carry weapons.

If no, then you haven't actually provided any criticism of the people you are calling domestic terrorists.

Running at people and hitting them with a hammer because you don't agree with them is wrong. Violence in self defense is not wrong. Antifa is not engaged in self defense.

I think they would disagree, and describe their actions rather differently. What makes you right and them wrong?

I didn't see patriots prayer prowling the streets looking for antifa.

It's usually Proud Boys that prowl the streets looking for people to attack.

I saw their last rally begin with them setting up shop in the park with American flags and some water bottles and ending with tear gas and pepper spray having to be used to disperse the black clad extremists that showed up to attack them

Four members of Patriots Prayer were discovered on a rooftop with a cache of firearms ahead of a rally in Portland in August of last year. They were dispersed by the police, but not arrested or charged, even though there is no plausible explanation for their behaviour but that they were planning to carry out a terrorist attack. No one outside the police force even knew about this narrowly averted massacre for months.

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Ifreann wrote:As it happens today is the 8th anniversary of Anders Breivik murdering a load of children in the hopes of somehow defending his country from Muslim immigration and Cultural Marxists.

Clearly morally equivalent to getting in a fight with fascists.

No one here is saying that. We are just saying you are not in the right.

Rojava Free State wrote:Being a communist (as most antifas are, and I don't mean random antofascists, I mean the group known as antifa, or anti fascist action) and being a fascist are definitely equal.

Rojava Free State wrote:
Ifreann wrote:As it happens today is the 8th anniversary of Anders Breivik murdering a load of children in the hopes of somehow defending his country from Muslim immigration and Cultural Marxists.

Clearly morally equivalent to getting in a fight with fascists.

Didn't know ganging up on and beating an Asian American journalist who is gay

Tell me how you hate identity politics.

to the point of serious injury and hospitalization was fighting fascism. I always called it felonious assault with intent to do great bodily harm

It can be that and fighting fascism.

Posted: **Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:35 am**

East Ustya wrote:What about the far right movements like the KKK and NSM?

This comes to mind

Posted: **Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:37 am**

Kubra wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:Sauce?
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.pr ... -1.5468898
I mean, coming from Haaretz, I mean you know what's up.
It's not all fascistic sunshine and roses of course, the topic of forced removal of palestinian arabs did come up and some figures were definitely for it, but the big political concern for the fascists was great britain and the soviets. In their mind, I suppose they saw the arabs as natural allies.

Brit HaBirionim (the zionist fascists you spoke of) existed in the early 30s. Your article talks about Herut support for ending martial law in 1966. You are three decades off, and talking about the wrong political faction.

Posted: **Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:39 am**

Ifreann wrote:
Jack Thomas Lang wrote:In terms of pure ideology, perhaps not. Practically, though, without a doubt. Communist (or Socialist if you're being picky) regimes have caused untold suffering and misery and are almost always authoritarian dictatorships.

Is there a regime in human history that hasn't caused untold suffering and misery? I'm not aware of one. I guess that means that all ideologies are morally equivalent. Good and bad are actually the same.

Rojava Free State wrote:
#1 you didn't even say why it's wrong. Nice argument

Do you want me to keep repeating that antifa is a thing people do, not a group they join?
#2. 100 million people killed by communism worldwide and counting. Sounds pretty equal to me man

I'm sure that does sound equal to you. I'm sure that you very consistently judge ideologies by body count. Hey, quick question, how many billions of people have died under capitalism? In fact, don't answer. Maybe just think about it. This thread isn't really about which ideology you think is the worst and why.
#3. And once again, you can't even argue why it's wrong. Miss me with your sarcasm if you won't even attempt to make your case as to why these thugs aren't as bad as the fascists they claim to fight against (half of which are actually random republicans, patriots prayer and news reporters).

If you can state a thing to be true without providing an argument for that being the case then surely I can contradict you without providing an argument.

Rojava Free State wrote:
Running at people and hitting them with a hammer because you don't agree with them is wrong. Violence in self defense is not wrong. Antifa is not engaged in self defense.

I think they would disagree, and describe their actions rather differently. What makes you right and them wrong?
I didn't see patriots prayer prowling the streets looking for antifa.

It's usually Proud Boys that prowl the streets looking for people to attack.
I saw their last rally begin with them setting up shop in the park with American flags and some water bottles and ending with tear gas and pepper spray having to be used to disperse the black clad extremists that showed up to attack them

Four members of Patriots Prayer were discovered on a rooftop with a cache of firearms ahead of a rally in Portland in August of last year. They were dispersed by the police, but not arrested or charged, even though there is no plausible explanation for their behaviour but that they were planning to carry out a terrorist attack. No one outside the police force even knew about this narrowly averted massacre for months.

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:No one here is saying that. We are just saying you are not in the right.

Rojava Free State wrote:Being a communist (as most antifas are, and I don't mean random antofascists, I mean the group known as antifa, or anti fascist action) and being a fascist are definitely equal.

Rojava Free State wrote:
Didn't know ganging up on and beating an Asian American journalist who is gay

Tell me how you hate identity politics.
to the point of serious injury and hospitalization was fighting fascism. I always called it felonious assault with intent to do great bodily harm

It can be that and fighting fascism.

First off there are ideologies that don't cause untold mass murder, one of them being liberal democracies like that of Sweden or switzerland. Second, I never defended the proud boys. Just because the other side is bad doesn't mean your side is good. Third, refer to my second point. Fourth, antifa is a specific movement and tactic, not just being antifascist. I even provided you a link about what it is but you didn't read it I see. Fifth, I'm not pro identity politics. I'm not accusing them of being racist or homophobic, I'm just saying the guy they attacked sure doesn't fit the profile of a fascist. Sixth, you aren't fighting fascism when you vandalize the young republicans club meeting. You're fighting people for not agreeing with you

Oh I almost forgot the part about self defense. It isn't a matter of debate or disagreement. When you go looking for a fight, you aren't defending yourself. Antifa constantly looks to start trouble, they are aggressors

Posted: **Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:44 am**

Gormwood wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
And yet he was OK enough to give interviews to FOX the next day after he'd already been discharged from hospital. Some serious injury.

Also it's interesting you always seem to default to the Ngo incident. If Antifa was such a massive domestic terrorist network you'd think there'd be more to work with than just "one guy got beaten up".

One guy who doxxed a protestor with spinal injury to neo-Nazis.

And, somewhat ironically, expressed doubt about whether she did, in fact, suffer spinal fractures. He personally witnessed her getting smashed in the head by one of his fascist buddies and then went on Twitter to question whether her injuries were really as serious as she claimed.

So we can safely assume that Andy Ngo would be perfectly fine with us being sceptical about his account of the severity of his injuries. He did the exact same thing himself about someone else's injuries.

Big Jim P wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
And yet he was OK enough to give interviews to FOX the next day after he'd already been discharged from hospital. Some serious injury.

Also it's interesting you always seem to default to the Ngo incident. If Antifa was such a massive domestic terrorist network you'd think there'd be more to work with than just "one guy got beaten up".

They beat up (or attempt to) anyone they disagree with politically. I doubt if any one of them could even identify a real fascist if one bit them on the ass.

Of course, beating someone up (or attempting to) because they don't agree with your politics, is fascism.

Yes Jim, that's fascism. "Beat up anyone who doesn't agree with me" - Hitler, defining fascism, 2019.

Rojava Free State wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
And yet he was OK enough to give interviews to FOX the next day after he'd already been discharged from hospital. Some serious injury.

Also it's interesting you always seem to default to the Ngo incident. If Antifa was such a massive domestic terrorist network you'd think there'd be more to work with than just "one guy got beaten up".

Did you not read the links I posted like three or four posts up? It isn't just one incident, these guys are freaking criminals and nothing more

Crimes aren't always bad. Kinda like violence.

Big Jim P wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:
The KKK has been considered a terrorist group by almost everyone for a while now. It's this kind of whataboutism that is destroying america, and it has to stop. Like you think most of us don't consider the klan to be terrorists? They are, but that doesn't excuse antifa for basically starting a riot everywhere they go. It doesn't excuse them for looting and burning random businesses in Oakland and Portland the week trump was elected. It doesn't excuse them for attacking reporters. They're still thugs. Is it really hard for people to understand that breaking windows, burning people's property and assaulting random people you disagree with makes you a criminal?

Eventually they will attempt an assault on someone armed and they will be shot dead.

I note a lack of antifa where this is likely to happen.

Shots were fired at the Unite The Right rally, if I recall correctly.

Aureumterra wrote:>Smacks people in the head with bike locks
>Peaceful groups

Who said that anti-fascism is peaceful? Usually it is, but that's the stuff that doesn't get into the news. Lurking far-right Discord servers and the like, tearing down fascist propaganda posters, getting fascist conferences cancelled by calling the venues to let them know that they're playing host to fascists, that's all peaceful, obviously. But anti-fascists use violence when they think it's a good idea.

Posted: **Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:47 am**

All ANTIFA is are a bunch of terroristic thugs who attack anyone who disagree with them.

Posted: **Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:52 am**

We seem to be drifting away from the actual subject of the thread. Why are we discussing the ideologies of these organizations and comparing them to determine who is less bad if we all seem to agree to the basic premise that initiating violence is bad and unlawful? We should focus on whether or not acts of violence committed in the name of a political ideology constitute terrorism, whether or not we should treat these organizations as terrorists and why, and whether or not we should take proactive steps, without labeling them domestic terrorists, to arrest and prosecute them when they initiate violence? Surely, you shouldn't get a pass on assault just because the person you assaulted is a racist or a commie?

Posted: **Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:53 am**

American Pere Housh wrote:All ANTIFA is are a bunch of terroristic thugs who attack anyone who disagree with them.

Right

Posted: **Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:55 am**

Aureumterra wrote:
American Pere Housh wrote:All ANTIFA is are a bunch of terroristic thugs who attack anyone who disagree with them.

Right

Somebody should work for F*X news.

Posted: **Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:56 am**

Fahran wrote:We seem to be drifting away from the actual subject of the thread. Why are we discussing the ideologies of these organizations and comparing them to determine who is less bad if we all seem to agree to the basic premise that initiating violence is bad and unlawful?

Ifreann wrote:Crimes aren't always bad. Kinda like violence.

We don’t seem to agree on that

Posted: **Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:57 am**

East Ustya wrote:
Aureumterra wrote:Right

Somebody should work for F*X news.

Just a curious question, why did you censor the word FOX in Fox News?

Posted: **Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:57 am**

Aureumterra wrote:
East Ustya wrote:Somebody should work for F*X news.

Just a curious question, why did you censor the word FOX in Fox News?

I am wondering the same. Its the opposite from fair and balanced.

Posted: **Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:58 am**

What I would like to see is one of these thugs get their ass handed to them when they try to attack a person who has a black belt or its equivalent in any known martial arts.

Posted: **Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:00 am**

American Pere Housh wrote:What I would like to see is one of these thugs get their ass handed to them when they try to attack a person who has a black belt or its equivalent in any known martial arts.

Well you got Kyle Chapman, also known as the Alt-Knight and Based Stickman whoses fate it was being insulted and attacked on Facebook for being refusing to subscribe into the alt-right's ideology.

Posted: **Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:00 am**

Nakena wrote:
Aureumterra wrote:Just a curious question, why did you censor the word FOX in Fox News?

I am wondering the same. Its the opposite from fair and balanced.

Neither is CNN,ABC,NBC,MSNBC,OR CBS.

Posted: **Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:02 am**

American Pere Housh wrote:What I would like to see is one of these thugs get their ass handed to them when they try to attack a person who has a black belt or its equivalent in any known martial arts.

They only go after the weak, mainly because their own combat skills look like this

Posted: **Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:02 am**

Aureumterra wrote:We don’t seem to agree on that

Someone forgot the first lesson in daycare. You don't get to hit people just because they're jerks.

Posted: **Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:03 am**

Vassenor wrote:
East Ustya wrote:What about the far right movements like the KKK and NSM?

We're not allowed to talk about those because it makes it harder to use this to justify sweeping up dissenters in the guise of a counter-terrorist action.

You’re the only one who’s saying that

Posted: **Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:04 am**

Fahran wrote:
Aureumterra wrote:We don’t seem to agree on that

Someone forgot the first lesson in daycare. You don't get to hit people just because they're jerks.

Yep. Radicals (and Ifreann apparently) forget that

Posted: **Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:04 am**

Nakena wrote:
Aureumterra wrote:Just a curious question, why did you censor the word FOX in Fox News?

I am wondering the same. Its the opposite from fair and balanced.

That is the point, as neither was his comment.

And the censoring was an attemped joke.

Brand sensoring and all.

Posted: **Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:06 am**

Aureumterra wrote:
Fahran wrote:We seem to be drifting away from the actual subject of the thread. Why are we discussing the ideologies of these organizations and comparing them to determine who is less bad if we all seem to agree to the basic premise that initiating violence is bad and unlawful?

Ifreann wrote:Crimes aren't always bad. Kinda like violence.

We don’t seem to agree on that

Disagreeing with both kind of lands you in a contradiction, as violence is sometimes needed to enforce the law (hence why we refer to the state as having a monopoly on violence or the legitimate use of force).

We can certainly argue that the law is not always just. I would say the same for violence, which might sometimes be just.

Posted: **Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:07 am**

American Pere Housh wrote:What I would like to see is one of these thugs get their ass handed to them when they try to attack a person who has a black belt or its equivalent in any known martial arts.

I don't really want to see people get seriously injured if it can be avoided. Like I said, I'd rather people who incite riots, harass passers-by, assault people, and make a public nuisance of themselves beyond the bounds of allowable protest were arrested by the police to protect both themselves and others.

Duvniask wrote:Disagreeing with both kind of lands you in a contradiction, as violence is sometimes needed to enforce the law (hence why we refer to the state as having a monopoly on violence or the legitimate use of force).

We can certainly argue that the law is not always just. I would say the same for violence, which might sometimes be just.

Yes, but the sort of violence certain left-wingers are advocating here is difficult to characterize as legitimate, moral, or desirable and goes against the trend of the state having a monopoly on violence in most circumstances. It's also dangerously close to advocating terrorism and illegal activity to be honest, especially if we follow such arguments to their logical conclusion.

Posted: **Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:10 am**

Fahran wrote:
Aureumterra wrote:We don’t seem to agree on that

Someone forgot the first lesson in daycare. You don't get to hit people just because they're jerks.

Meanwhile, in reality, society generally tolerates it if you have the law on your side.

This obviously doesn't mean that the law is necessarily right, just as it doesn't mean that violence outside of the law is necessarily morally wrong.

Posted: **Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:13 am**

Duvniask wrote:Meanwhile, in reality, society generally tolerates it if you have the law on your side.

1. That's not exactly true. You can still get in trouble for being excessive or even for being disorderly.

2. Antifa doesn't have the law on its side in many of these cases.

Posted: **Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:14 am**

Rojava Free State wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Is there a regime in human history that hasn't caused untold suffering and misery? I'm not aware of one. I guess that means that all ideologies are morally equivalent. Good and bad are actually the same.

Do you want me to keep repeating that antifa is a thing people do, not a group they join?

I'm sure that does sound equal to you. I'm sure that you very consistently judge ideologies by body count. Hey, quick question, how many billions of people have died under capitalism? In fact, don't answer. Maybe just think about it. This thread isn't really about which ideology you think is the worst and why.

If you can state a thing to be true without providing an argument for that being the case then surely I can contradict you without providing an argument.

I think they would disagree, and describe their actions rather differently. What makes you right and them wrong?

It's usually Proud Boys that prowl the streets looking for people to attack.

Four members of Patriots Prayer were discovered on a rooftop with a cache of firearms ahead of a rally in Portland in August of last year. They were dispersed by the police, but not arrested or charged, even though there is no plausible explanation for their behaviour but that they were planning to carry out a terrorist attack. No one outside the police force even knew about this narrowly averted massacre for months.

Tell me how you hate identity politics.

It can be that and fighting fascism.

First off there are ideologies that don't cause untold mass murder, one of them being liberal democracies like that of Sweden or switzerland.

As I said, this isn't really on topic. So I won't be pursuing that tangent further.

Second, I never defended the proud boys. Just because the other side is bad doesn't mean your side is good. Third, refer to my second point.

I know you only brought up and defended Patriots Prayer, not the Proud Boys, I never said otherwise, but I'm not saying that those groups being bad means that anti-fascists are good. However, consider that those groups have not been subject of a resolution being put forward by Republican Senators. You keep saying that antifa are violent thugs who are just as bad as fascists. But the GOP aren't condemning the Proud Boys and Patriots Prayer. Ted Cruz appeared on Louder With Crowder with the founder of the Proud Boys, Gavin McInnes.

So we must ask ourselves, why the different treatment? Could it be, perhaps, that the GOP see political advantage in condemning antifa? Could it be that that label could be applied to any left wing activist? Well then suddenly the entire left are terrorists, or affiliated with terrorists. How advantageous to the right. Left wing protests and rallies could be shut down whether there's unrest or not, for fear of the presence of dangerous terrorists.

Fourth, antifa is a specific movement and tactic, not just being antifascist. I even provided you a link about what it is but you didn't read it I see.

I went back and checked and it looks like you edited those links into your post after I read it. Regardless, I don't really care what Wikipedia has to say.

Fifth, I'm not pro identity politics. I'm not accusing them of being racist or homophobic, I'm just saying the guy they attacked sure doesn't fit the profile of a fascist.

Why not? You do know that fascism isn't exclusively European, don't you? Japan wasn't in the Axis as a liberal democracy.

Sixth, you aren't fighting fascism when you vandalize the young republicans club meeting. You're fighting people for not agreeing with you

Well, no, when you're vandalising property you're vandalising property, not fighting people. But you seem to be under the impression that a Young Republicans Club can't possibly be advancing the cause of fascism. Which is silly. Where else would fascism make in-roads into mainstream politics, if not the GOP?

Oh I almost forgot the part about self defense. It isn't a matter of debate or disagreement. When you go looking for a fight, you aren't defending yourself. Antifa constantly looks to start trouble, they are aggressors

Are they constantly looking for trouble? You say so, but I'm sure they would say otherwise. I ask again why you are right and they wrong. Further, is it necessarily true that people who go looking for a fight are the aggressors? Is it not possible for people to go to a rally or protest, knowing full well that there is a strong possibility of violence breaking out, and still be acting in self-defence when attacked? I will remind you that Andy Ngo was not jumped randomly in the street or attacked in his own home. He went to a rally, and went there with a group he knows are prone to carrying out violent attacks. One could easily say that he was looking for a fight. Maybe you don't think so, but you can no more read his mind and know his true intentions than you can read the minds of any of his unknown assailants.

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Two Senators want Antifa labled domestic terrorists