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Two Senators want Antifa labled domestic terrorists

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East Ustya
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Postby East Ustya » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:18 am

What about the far right movements like the KKK and NSM?
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Postby Big Jim P » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:20 am

East Ustya wrote:What about the far right movements like the KKK and NSM?


KKK are remnants of terrorist organizations.

NSM? I don't know who those are.

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Postby Rojava Free State » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:21 am

East Ustya wrote:What about the far right movements like the KKK and NSM?


The KKK has been considered a terrorist group by almost everyone for a while now. It's this kind of whataboutism that is destroying america, and it has to stop. Like you think most of us don't consider the klan to be terrorists? They are, but that doesn't excuse antifa for basically starting a riot everywhere they go. It doesn't excuse them for looting and burning random businesses in Oakland and Portland the week trump was elected. It doesn't excuse them for attacking reporters. They're still thugs. Is it really hard for people to understand that breaking windows, burning people's property and assaulting random people you disagree with makes you a criminal?
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Postby Rojava Free State » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:21 am

Big Jim P wrote:
East Ustya wrote:What about the far right movements like the KKK and NSM?


KKK are remnants of terrorist organizations.

NSM? I don't know who those are.


The national socialist movement.

They're nazis
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Postby Vassenor » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:22 am

East Ustya wrote:What about the far right movements like the KKK and NSM?


We're not allowed to talk about those because it makes it harder to use this to justify sweeping up dissenters in the guise of a counter-terrorist action.
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Postby Big Jim P » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:23 am

Rojava Free State wrote:
East Ustya wrote:What about the far right movements like the KKK and NSM?


The KKK has been considered a terrorist group by almost everyone for a while now. It's this kind of whataboutism that is destroying america, and it has to stop. Like you think most of us don't consider the klan to be terrorists? They are, but that doesn't excuse antifa for basically starting a riot everywhere they go. It doesn't excuse them for looting and burning random businesses in Oakland and Portland the week trump was elected. It doesn't excuse them for attacking reporters. They're still thugs. Is it really hard for people to understand that breaking windows, burning people's property and assaulting random people you disagree with makes you a criminal?


Eventually they will attempt an assault on someone armed and they will be shot dead.

I note a lack of antifa where this is likely to happen.

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East Ustya
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Postby East Ustya » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:23 am

Vassenor wrote:
East Ustya wrote:What about the far right movements like the KKK and NSM?


We're not allowed to talk about those because it makes it harder to use this to justify sweeping up dissenters in the guise of a counter-terrorist action.

On Nationstates you mean?
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Postby Big Jim P » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:24 am

Rojava Free State wrote:
Big Jim P wrote:
KKK are remnants of terrorist organizations.

NSM? I don't know who those are.


The national socialist movement.

They're nazis


Thanx. Just as bad as antifa then.

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Postby Aureumterra » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:24 am

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East Ustya
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Postby East Ustya » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:25 am

Rojava Free State wrote:
East Ustya wrote:What about the far right movements like the KKK and NSM?


The KKK has been considered a terrorist group by almost everyone for a while now. It's this kind of whataboutism that is destroying america, and it has to stop. Like you think most of us don't consider the klan to be terrorists? They are, but that doesn't excuse antifa for basically starting a riot everywhere they go. It doesn't excuse them for looting and burning random businesses in Oakland and Portland the week trump was elected. It doesn't excuse them for attacking reporters. They're still thugs. Is it really hard for people to understand that breaking windows, burning people's property and assaulting random people you disagree with makes you a criminal?

You are still ignoring my point by diverting attention away from the problem.

I only asked a question, but apparently that is a taboo one in the so called ''land of the free''.
Last edited by East Ustya on Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Big Jim P » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:25 am

Vassenor wrote:
East Ustya wrote:What about the far right movements like the KKK and NSM?


We're not allowed to talk about those because it makes it harder to use this to justify sweeping up dissenters in the guise of a counter-terrorist action.


There is a distinct difference between dissent, and assault/ADW.

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Postby Rojava Free State » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:27 am

East Ustya wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:
The KKK has been considered a terrorist group by almost everyone for a while now. It's this kind of whataboutism that is destroying america, and it has to stop. Like you think most of us don't consider the klan to be terrorists? They are, but that doesn't excuse antifa for basically starting a riot everywhere they go. It doesn't excuse them for looting and burning random businesses in Oakland and Portland the week trump was elected. It doesn't excuse them for attacking reporters. They're still thugs. Is it really hard for people to understand that breaking windows, burning people's property and assaulting random people you disagree with makes you a criminal?

You are still ignoring my point by dicerting attention away from the problem.


You wanna label them terrorists too? Fine, they're violent thugs who commit horrific acts to further their agendas. They are terrorists in the definition. The KKK has already been targeted multiple times with anti terror legislation including many of the anti mask laws you see in multiple states (former due to klan violence). I agree with the right to be anti fascist but I am against violently attacking random people and vandalism in the name of "fighting fascism"
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Fahran
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Postby Fahran » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:28 am

I wouldn't label them as domestic terrorists in blanket terms, though many of the chapters that appear in the media for provoking riots, heckling people, and engaging in assaults and vandalism to further their ideology are effectively terrorist cells. Honestly, having the police arrest them when they do illegal things or employ better surveillance at protests where masked thugs will be present in large numbers would be a nice start.
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Postby Fahran » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:29 am

Vassenor wrote:
East Ustya wrote:What about the far right movements like the KKK and NSM?


We're not allowed to talk about those because it makes it harder to use this to justify sweeping up dissenters in the guise of a counter-terrorist action.

I want to arrest them when they do naughty things too, frankly.
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Postby Ifreann » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:30 am

Jack Thomas Lang wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Communism and fascism aren't equal, don't be ridiculous.

In terms of pure ideology, perhaps not. Practically, though, without a doubt. Communist (or Socialist if you're being picky) regimes have caused untold suffering and misery and are almost always authoritarian dictatorships.

Is there a regime in human history that hasn't caused untold suffering and misery? I'm not aware of one. I guess that means that all ideologies are morally equivalent. Good and bad are actually the same.


Rojava Free State wrote:
Ifreann wrote:And you're wrong. Congratulations.

Communism and fascism aren't equal, don't be ridiculous.

I know what you're saying, but what you're saying is wrong, and moreover is being wrong in a harmful and dangerous way so I'm not going to indulge it.


#1 you didn't even say why it's wrong. Nice argument

Do you want me to keep repeating that antifa is a thing people do, not a group they join?
#2. 100 million people killed by communism worldwide and counting. Sounds pretty equal to me man

I'm sure that does sound equal to you. I'm sure that you very consistently judge ideologies by body count. Hey, quick question, how many billions of people have died under capitalism? In fact, don't answer. Maybe just think about it. This thread isn't really about which ideology you think is the worst and why.
#3. And once again, you can't even argue why it's wrong. Miss me with your sarcasm if you won't even attempt to make your case as to why these thugs aren't as bad as the fascists they claim to fight against (half of which are actually random republicans, patriots prayer and news reporters).

If you can state a thing to be true without providing an argument for that being the case then surely I can contradict you without providing an argument.


Rojava Free State wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Do you actually think that violence is always wrong?

If yes, maybe have a think about why the police carry weapons.

If no, then you haven't actually provided any criticism of the people you are calling domestic terrorists.


Running at people and hitting them with a hammer because you don't agree with them is wrong. Violence in self defense is not wrong. Antifa is not engaged in self defense.

I think they would disagree, and describe their actions rather differently. What makes you right and them wrong?
I didn't see patriots prayer prowling the streets looking for antifa.

It's usually Proud Boys that prowl the streets looking for people to attack.
I saw their last rally begin with them setting up shop in the park with American flags and some water bottles and ending with tear gas and pepper spray having to be used to disperse the black clad extremists that showed up to attack them

Four members of Patriots Prayer were discovered on a rooftop with a cache of firearms ahead of a rally in Portland in August of last year. They were dispersed by the police, but not arrested or charged, even though there is no plausible explanation for their behaviour but that they were planning to carry out a terrorist attack. No one outside the police force even knew about this narrowly averted massacre for months.


LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Ifreann wrote:As it happens today is the 8th anniversary of Anders Breivik murdering a load of children in the hopes of somehow defending his country from Muslim immigration and Cultural Marxists.

Clearly morally equivalent to getting in a fight with fascists.

No one here is saying that. :roll: We are just saying you are not in the right.

Rojava Free State wrote:Being a communist (as most antifas are, and I don't mean random antofascists, I mean the group known as antifa, or anti fascist action) and being a fascist are definitely equal.



Rojava Free State wrote:
Ifreann wrote:As it happens today is the 8th anniversary of Anders Breivik murdering a load of children in the hopes of somehow defending his country from Muslim immigration and Cultural Marxists.

Clearly morally equivalent to getting in a fight with fascists.


Didn't know ganging up on and beating an Asian American journalist who is gay

Tell me how you hate identity politics.
to the point of serious injury and hospitalization was fighting fascism. I always called it felonious assault with intent to do great bodily harm

It can be that and fighting fascism.
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Nakena
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Postby Nakena » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:35 am

East Ustya wrote:What about the far right movements like the KKK and NSM?


This comes to mind
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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:37 am

Kubra wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:Sauce?
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.pr ... -1.5468898
I mean, coming from Haaretz, I mean you know what's up.
It's not all fascistic sunshine and roses of course, the topic of forced removal of palestinian arabs did come up and some figures were definitely for it, but the big political concern for the fascists was great britain and the soviets. In their mind, I suppose they saw the arabs as natural allies.

Brit HaBirionim (the zionist fascists you spoke of) existed in the early 30s. Your article talks about Herut support for ending martial law in 1966. You are three decades off, and talking about the wrong political faction.
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Postby Rojava Free State » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:39 am

Ifreann wrote:
Jack Thomas Lang wrote:In terms of pure ideology, perhaps not. Practically, though, without a doubt. Communist (or Socialist if you're being picky) regimes have caused untold suffering and misery and are almost always authoritarian dictatorships.

Is there a regime in human history that hasn't caused untold suffering and misery? I'm not aware of one. I guess that means that all ideologies are morally equivalent. Good and bad are actually the same.


Rojava Free State wrote:
#1 you didn't even say why it's wrong. Nice argument

Do you want me to keep repeating that antifa is a thing people do, not a group they join?
#2. 100 million people killed by communism worldwide and counting. Sounds pretty equal to me man

I'm sure that does sound equal to you. I'm sure that you very consistently judge ideologies by body count. Hey, quick question, how many billions of people have died under capitalism? In fact, don't answer. Maybe just think about it. This thread isn't really about which ideology you think is the worst and why.
#3. And once again, you can't even argue why it's wrong. Miss me with your sarcasm if you won't even attempt to make your case as to why these thugs aren't as bad as the fascists they claim to fight against (half of which are actually random republicans, patriots prayer and news reporters).

If you can state a thing to be true without providing an argument for that being the case then surely I can contradict you without providing an argument.


Rojava Free State wrote:
Running at people and hitting them with a hammer because you don't agree with them is wrong. Violence in self defense is not wrong. Antifa is not engaged in self defense.

I think they would disagree, and describe their actions rather differently. What makes you right and them wrong?
I didn't see patriots prayer prowling the streets looking for antifa.

It's usually Proud Boys that prowl the streets looking for people to attack.
I saw their last rally begin with them setting up shop in the park with American flags and some water bottles and ending with tear gas and pepper spray having to be used to disperse the black clad extremists that showed up to attack them

Four members of Patriots Prayer were discovered on a rooftop with a cache of firearms ahead of a rally in Portland in August of last year. They were dispersed by the police, but not arrested or charged, even though there is no plausible explanation for their behaviour but that they were planning to carry out a terrorist attack. No one outside the police force even knew about this narrowly averted massacre for months.


LiberNovusAmericae wrote:No one here is saying that. :roll: We are just saying you are not in the right.

Rojava Free State wrote:Being a communist (as most antifas are, and I don't mean random antofascists, I mean the group known as antifa, or anti fascist action) and being a fascist are definitely equal.



Rojava Free State wrote:
Didn't know ganging up on and beating an Asian American journalist who is gay

Tell me how you hate identity politics.
to the point of serious injury and hospitalization was fighting fascism. I always called it felonious assault with intent to do great bodily harm

It can be that and fighting fascism.


First off there are ideologies that don't cause untold mass murder, one of them being liberal democracies like that of Sweden or switzerland. Second, I never defended the proud boys. Just because the other side is bad doesn't mean your side is good. Third, refer to my second point. Fourth, antifa is a specific movement and tactic, not just being antifascist. I even provided you a link about what it is but you didn't read it I see. Fifth, I'm not pro identity politics. I'm not accusing them of being racist or homophobic, I'm just saying the guy they attacked sure doesn't fit the profile of a fascist. Sixth, you aren't fighting fascism when you vandalize the young republicans club meeting. You're fighting people for not agreeing with you

Oh I almost forgot the part about self defense. It isn't a matter of debate or disagreement. When you go looking for a fight, you aren't defending yourself. Antifa constantly looks to start trouble, they are aggressors
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Postby Ifreann » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:44 am

Gormwood wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
And yet he was OK enough to give interviews to FOX the next day after he'd already been discharged from hospital. Some serious injury.

Also it's interesting you always seem to default to the Ngo incident. If Antifa was such a massive domestic terrorist network you'd think there'd be more to work with than just "one guy got beaten up".

One guy who doxxed a protestor with spinal injury to neo-Nazis.

And, somewhat ironically, expressed doubt about whether she did, in fact, suffer spinal fractures. He personally witnessed her getting smashed in the head by one of his fascist buddies and then went on Twitter to question whether her injuries were really as serious as she claimed.

So we can safely assume that Andy Ngo would be perfectly fine with us being sceptical about his account of the severity of his injuries. He did the exact same thing himself about someone else's injuries.


Big Jim P wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
And yet he was OK enough to give interviews to FOX the next day after he'd already been discharged from hospital. Some serious injury.

Also it's interesting you always seem to default to the Ngo incident. If Antifa was such a massive domestic terrorist network you'd think there'd be more to work with than just "one guy got beaten up".


They beat up (or attempt to) anyone they disagree with politically. I doubt if any one of them could even identify a real fascist if one bit them on the ass.

Of course, beating someone up (or attempting to) because they don't agree with your politics, is fascism.

Yes Jim, that's fascism. "Beat up anyone who doesn't agree with me" - Hitler, defining fascism, 2019.


Rojava Free State wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
And yet he was OK enough to give interviews to FOX the next day after he'd already been discharged from hospital. Some serious injury.

Also it's interesting you always seem to default to the Ngo incident. If Antifa was such a massive domestic terrorist network you'd think there'd be more to work with than just "one guy got beaten up".


Did you not read the links I posted like three or four posts up? It isn't just one incident, these guys are freaking criminals and nothing more

Crimes aren't always bad. Kinda like violence.


Big Jim P wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:
The KKK has been considered a terrorist group by almost everyone for a while now. It's this kind of whataboutism that is destroying america, and it has to stop. Like you think most of us don't consider the klan to be terrorists? They are, but that doesn't excuse antifa for basically starting a riot everywhere they go. It doesn't excuse them for looting and burning random businesses in Oakland and Portland the week trump was elected. It doesn't excuse them for attacking reporters. They're still thugs. Is it really hard for people to understand that breaking windows, burning people's property and assaulting random people you disagree with makes you a criminal?


Eventually they will attempt an assault on someone armed and they will be shot dead.

I note a lack of antifa where this is likely to happen.

Shots were fired at the Unite The Right rally, if I recall correctly.


Aureumterra wrote:>Smacks people in the head with bike locks
>Peaceful groups

Who said that anti-fascism is peaceful? Usually it is, but that's the stuff that doesn't get into the news. Lurking far-right Discord servers and the like, tearing down fascist propaganda posters, getting fascist conferences cancelled by calling the venues to let them know that they're playing host to fascists, that's all peaceful, obviously. But anti-fascists use violence when they think it's a good idea.
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Postby American Pere Housh » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:47 am

All ANTIFA is are a bunch of terroristic thugs who attack anyone who disagree with them.
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Postby Fahran » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:52 am

We seem to be drifting away from the actual subject of the thread. Why are we discussing the ideologies of these organizations and comparing them to determine who is less bad if we all seem to agree to the basic premise that initiating violence is bad and unlawful? We should focus on whether or not acts of violence committed in the name of a political ideology constitute terrorism, whether or not we should treat these organizations as terrorists and why, and whether or not we should take proactive steps, without labeling them domestic terrorists, to arrest and prosecute them when they initiate violence? Surely, you shouldn't get a pass on assault just because the person you assaulted is a racist or a commie?
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Postby Aureumterra » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:53 am

American Pere Housh wrote:All ANTIFA is are a bunch of terroristic thugs who attack anyone who disagree with them.

Right
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Postby East Ustya » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:55 am

Aureumterra wrote:
American Pere Housh wrote:All ANTIFA is are a bunch of terroristic thugs who attack anyone who disagree with them.

Right

Somebody should work for F*X news.
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Postby Aureumterra » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:56 am

Fahran wrote:We seem to be drifting away from the actual subject of the thread. Why are we discussing the ideologies of these organizations and comparing them to determine who is less bad if we all seem to agree to the basic premise that initiating violence is bad and unlawful?

Ifreann wrote:Crimes aren't always bad. Kinda like violence.


We don’t seem to agree on that
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Postby Aureumterra » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:57 am

East Ustya wrote:
Aureumterra wrote:Right

Somebody should work for F*X news.

Just a curious question, why did you censor the word FOX in Fox News?
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Icelandic Nationalist and proud
I’m your average Íslandic NS player
I DO NOT USE NS STATS!
A 12 civilization, according to this index.
Currently running for city council in Kópavogur, follow news here (Translated from Icelandic to English, expect errors)

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