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PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:25 pm
by LiberNovusAmericae
Seythennia wrote:
Strahcoin wrote:The alt-right is not right-wing. The alt-right believes in a government-planned economy, diving the nation based on ethnicity, suppressing opposing ideologies, and prohibiting immigration.

The alt-right is so loosely defined that it's almost impossible to assign any beliefs to it as a whole. It's basically a blanket covering anything from "I'm proud of Confederate history" to "Hitler didn't do enough". Those four beliefs you mentioned are more popular in the latter, who are of course the most vocal of the alt-right.

Yep. Some do support capitalism while others support a form of socialism. Either way, they (the alt-right) are grotesque people.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:25 pm
by Leninist Haven
Thermodolia wrote:
Leninist Haven wrote:
Interestingly, during the Night of the Long Knives, Hitler murdered the far-right socialist part of the Nazi Party (The Strasserists, self-proclaimed right-wing socialists). So yes, you are correct.

The Strasserists where the left wing of the NSDAP, not the right


No no, I mean that they are far-right socialists. Not that they are the far-right wing of the Nazi party. Comparing their socialism to, say, Lenin's socialism is incredibly night-and-day by all accounts.

Edit: My emphasis in the original quote is that it was the only socialist part of the nazi party, even if strasserism is very... Controversial as to whether or not it's actually socialism at all.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:27 pm
by Kowani
Distance Running wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:
Communists and fascists have been mortal enemies since day one. Communists support ending the nation state and bringing about worldwide proletariat solidarity while fascists are highly nationalistic and seek to do away with class warfare in favor of loyalty to the nation. As a result, nazis hate communists with a passion and communists hate nazis


Soviets weren't nationalistic at all. But then again, they weren't real Communists were they?

“Socialism in one country.”

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:27 pm
by Highever
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Strahcoin wrote:
PragerU actually enlightened me. Here's a tip: Start watching Prager with an open mind and you'll be a thousand times more proficient at debate. Even if you still disagree with it, at least you'll understand the conservative ideology. That is the point of debate.


I fully understand conservative ideology and am likely a lot more right wing than you are if we're sticking to that archaic scale. PragerU is just awful, give em the boot and just buy books instead.

The idea that PragerU makes one more proficient in anything or somehow enlightens someone damn near made me have a spit take.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:31 pm
by Thermodolia
Strahcoin wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:Citing PragerU, a far-right blog channel that has hosted multiple actual fascists, as "proof" that fascism is actually socialism.

Let's just forget that fascists have always and continue to murder socialists because of their fundamental and radical differences.

And while fascists did murder other socialists, that doesn't mean fascists aren't socialists.

Dude the fascists advocate for corporatism aka rule by corporations not rule by the workers aka socialism.

Socialists believe in a government-controlled economy and overthrowing the bourgeoisie. Fascists believe in a government-controlled economy and overthrowing those from stronger, wealthier nations.

That’s an extreme and absurd reductionist viewpoint.

Highever wrote:Ah PragerU's timeless argument of "Nazis are left wing, socialist is in the NAME you libtards.

Nazis arent nationalist it doesnt matter that it says it in the name."

It's more than just the name. The actual ideology of fascism matches more with that of the far-left than it does to that of the far-right.

No it fucking doesn’t.

Overthrowing the oppressors, willingly surrendering the person to the state, assaulting anyone who doesn't conform to the beliefs, etc.

Nowhere does Fascism say anything about overthrowing the oppressors. And for the rest several different ideologies do that doesn’t mean they are all the same.

Granted, Nazis may hold national identity crucial. However, their reasoning for this is to overthrow the stronger, wealthier nations (similar to how Marxism involves overthrowing the bourgeoisie). Conservatives value national identity to reduce racial/sexual discrimination, while Nazis use it to further discrimination.

Your only thing linking the Socialists and Nazis together is overthrowing things? That’s extremely stupid.

Nazi: "If you're not a native-born like me, you are different, and I cannot connect with you. I don't care if you're a law-abiding citizen of the same nation as me."
Conservative: "What does it matter whether you're white or black, male or female - you're a law-abiding American, just like me, and that connects us together."

Nobody is saying that conservative are fascists just that fascists aren’t bloody socialists

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:33 pm
by Diopolis
Thermodolia wrote:
Strahcoin wrote:And while fascists did murder other socialists, that doesn't mean fascists aren't socialists.

Dude the fascists advocate for corporatism aka rule by corporations not rule by the workers aka socialism.

While your point is correct, that's not really what corporatism is.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:33 pm
by Thermodolia
Leninist Haven wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:The Strasserists where the left wing of the NSDAP, not the right


No no, I mean that they are far-right socialists. Not that they are the far-right wing of the Nazi party. Comparing their socialism to, say, Lenin's socialism is incredibly night-and-day by all accounts.

Edit: My emphasis in the original quote is that it was the only socialist part of the nazi party, even if strasserism is very... Controversial as to whether or not it's actually socialism at all.

Understood. I misunderstood what you meant

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:34 pm
by The Greater Ohio Valley
Strahcoin wrote:The alt-right is not right-wing. The alt-right believes in a government-planned economy, diving the nation based on ethnicity, suppressing opposing ideologies, and prohibiting immigration. The right believes in a free-market capitalist economy, uniting the nation's people as members of that nation, supporting the freedom of speech, and allowing immigration based on merit. Not to mention that fascism was founded by a student of Marx....

You can be economically more to the left while still being to the right socially and everywhere else.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:35 pm
by The Greater Ohio Valley
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Major-Tom wrote:A few people associated with a broad tent like ANTIFA do a few asinine things and they're domestic terrorists, but the alt-right gets a free pass when it comes to actual murders and calls for genocide.

Sounds about right, fucking christ.

The alt-right is rightfully condemned by many, and we have alt-right murderers in prison.

Yet it seems (at least to me) as though the alt-right hardly gets as much condemnation as Antifa seems to get on a regular basis.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:35 pm
by Wallenburg
Strahcoin wrote:Since when did PragerU host actual fascists? Dennis Prager, founder of PragerU, is an Orthodox Jew. He strongly opposes fascism. In this video, Prager condemns Nazism.

Yes, they host fascists. For example, Steven Crowder. Also, being an Orthodox Jew and being a fascist are far from mutually exclusive. In fact, the more orthodox and zionist Jews tend to be more fascist.
And while fascists did murder other socialists, that doesn't mean fascists aren't socialists. Socialists believe in a government-controlled economy and overthrowing the bourgeoisie. Fascists believe in a government-controlled economy and overthrowing those from stronger, wealthier nations.

Socialists believe in dismantling the socioeconomic hierarchies that oppress the workers and various other persecuted groups. Fascists believe in reinforcing hierarchies to benefit an ever-narrower corner of their society, such that the weakest and most vulnerable elements of society are considered worthy of death.
PragerU actually enlightened me. Here's a tip: Start watching Prager with an open mind and you'll be a thousand times more proficient at debate. Even if you still disagree with it, at least you'll understand the conservative ideology. That is the point of debate.

To open my mind to fucking PragerU is to lower my defenses against counterfactual, bigoted, and globally destructive propaganda. No thank you. Find a legitimate authority to support your arguments next time. Or, better yet, defend your arguments yourself.
Trump is a genius. His outspoken rhetoric got him elected. It triggered the Democrat Party. It showed the Americans how deceptive the fake news media was.

When Trump makes a simple joke, the media twist it to match their thoughts. The media then reports it a lot, gaining Trump some coverage, while making the fake news media continue losing support. So, Trump made lots of simple jokes for the media to twist.

Trump literally speaks like a child, doesn't know how key elements of his government work, can't pay attention for as much as 10 seconds, and whines about the media when they show everyone a fraction of how stupid he is. He has failed his way through his businesses, and he's failing his way through the presidency.
It's more than just the name. The actual ideology of fascism matches more with that of the far-left than it does to that of the far-right. Overthrowing the oppressors, willingly surrendering the person to the state, assaulting anyone who doesn't conform to the beliefs, etc.

Fascism is literally about installing oppressors, not overthrowing them. Far-leftism across the fucking board believes in the total dissolution of the state, not "willingly surrendering the person to the state". The facts of political speech show that the left has had its speech suppressed far more than the right.
Granted, Nazis may hold national identity crucial. However, their reasoning for this is to overthrow the stronger, wealthier nations (similar to how Marxism involves overthrowing the bourgeoisie).

Marxism also involves overthrowing the concept of a state at all. You don't build a totalitarian state and empire-build to do that.
Conservatives value national identity to reduce racial/sexual discrimination, while Nazis use it to further discrimination.

LMAO
Nazi: "If you're not a native-born like me, you are different, and I cannot connect with you. I don't care if you're a law-abiding citizen of the same nation as me."
Conservative: "What does it matter whether you're white or black, male or female - you're a law-abiding American, just like me, and that connects us together."

I have never encountered a conservative that actually believes that. If they existed, Trump's comments about Democratic congresswomen would have gotten him convicted in the Senate by now.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:36 pm
by Washington Resistance Army
Wallenburg wrote:Yes, they host fascists. For example, Steven Crowder.


You're better than this, stop.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:37 pm
by Diopolis
The Greater Ohio Valley wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:The alt-right is rightfully condemned by many, and we have alt-right murderers in prison.

Yet it seems (at least to me) as though the alt-right hardly gets as much condemnation as Antifa seems to get on a regular basis.

This is because the alt-right is a political movement with a (worryingly large)violent fringe, while antifa is the violent fringe.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:38 pm
by Kowani
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:Yes, they host fascists. For example, Steven Crowder.


You're better than this, stop.

Racist, perhaps. Fascist, nah. Sympathizer? Perhaps.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:38 pm
by Strahcoin
Highever wrote:
Distance Running wrote:
You do realize that fascists and socialists/communists recognize each other as allies against filthy capitalists? See vote for confirmation of Hitler...

Guess that's why they threw them into death camps and such.

Hitler murdered many political opponents and those who don't exactly conform to his beliefs. Even his own SA officers weren't spared, despite their loyalties.

Ifreann wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:But there are fine people on many sides. Unite the Right at Charlottesville wasn't populated exclusively by Nazis.

You think so? I'd be more of the opinion that if you go to a rally where there are a bunch of Nazis on your side, and you decide to hang around with the Nazis instead of turning right the fuck around and going home, then you're basically a Nazi too.

It's important to understand the ideologies and thoughts of those who disagree with you (including that of Nazis). That way, if their ideology is bad (which it is), you can dispute them more easily, because you'll know what they will say and how they will think. This exchange of knowledge is why the First Amendment exists, and it can enlighten all who participate.

Highever wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
I fully understand conservative ideology and am likely a lot more right wing than you are if we're sticking to that archaic scale. PragerU is just awful, give em the boot and just buy books instead.

The idea that PragerU makes one more proficient in anything or somehow enlightens someone damn near made me have a spit take.

PragerU Testimonials:
  • "This is the first truly well done conservative YouTube channel that I've been able to find. It's so nice that youth with a more conservative mindset have a place to explore and expand upon their thoughts. I respect this channel even though I'm a liberal."
  • "As a college student who had his mind opened by PragerU, I'm so happy to be donating a portion of what little money I have. There's no price on what you're doing and know that you're doing your part in exposing future generations to a better way of life!"
  • "PragerU, unfortunately, didn't exist until AFTER I graduated college, but since listening it has helped clarify some of my views and gives me a better perspective on why I believe what I believe. It has equipped me to better articulate my values to my peers and for that I am forever grateful."
  • "I'm left of center, yet look forward to each new video. I'm in complete agreement with your views on morality, and common sense life advice. Even the videos I disagree with, I like, because they make me scratch my head."
  • "As a high school student in the Chicago area, I have had liberal views forced upon me in education and by my peers ever since I was a child. Thanks to PragerU that I am able to understand the truth and educate others correctly."
  • "PragerU has opened my eyes to so many things. It's clear and concise way of explaining things has supplied me with the arguments I need to take on the left in the uk. It is the thing I look forward to the most on a Monday, long may it continue."
  • "I'm 28 and I've been listening to you for 4 years. I've always heard you talk about prageru but I never actually visited the site. 4 days ago I decided to finally check it out and from then until now, I have watched every video you have on thete and have even had 2 friends who have started to learn from there as well. The videos are very informative and keeps you wanting more. To anyone who was like me and has yet to go to the site, I strongly advise you try it out, you won't be disappointed. Thank you Mr. Prager for all your good doing. Manny"

PragerU Impact Report (last page):
  • "I used to be a communist, but thanks to PragerU, I am now a conservative"
  • "From radical leftie to an open-minded critical thinker, and I owe it all to you."

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:39 pm
by Kombinita Socialisma Demokratio
Good; violence must be discouraged through legal means moreso than it is today.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:39 pm
by Thermodolia
Wallenburg wrote:Yes, they host fascists. For example, Steven Crowder.


Steven Crowder may be a punchable prick, an idiot, an unfunny asshole, and a bunch of other things but the guy isn’t a fascist

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:40 pm
by Thermodolia
Kowani wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
You're better than this, stop.

Racist, perhaps. Fascist, nah. Sympathizer? Perhaps.

More like an idiot pawn

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:40 pm
by Pacomia
You can be both a leftist and an open-minded critical thinker. It just so happens that I am both.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:41 pm
by Kowani
Strahcoin wrote:PragerU Testimonials:
  • "This is the first truly well done conservative YouTube channel that I've been able to find. It's so nice that youth with a more conservative mindset have a place to explore and expand upon their thoughts. I respect this channel even though I'm a liberal."
  • "As a college student who had his mind opened by PragerU, I'm so happy to be donating a portion of what little money I have. There's no price on what you're doing and know that you're doing your part in exposing future generations to a better way of life!"
  • "PragerU, unfortunately, didn't exist until AFTER I graduated college, but since listening it has helped clarify some of my views and gives me a better perspective on why I believe what I believe. It has equipped me to better articulate my values to my peers and for that I am forever grateful."
  • "I'm left of center, yet look forward to each new video. I'm in complete agreement with your views on morality, and common sense life advice. Even the videos I disagree with, I like, because they make me scratch my head."
  • "As a high school student in the Chicago area, I have had liberal views forced upon me in education and by my peers ever since I was a child. Thanks to PragerU that I am able to understand the truth and educate others correctly."
  • "PragerU has opened my eyes to so many things. It's clear and concise way of explaining things has supplied me with the arguments I need to take on the left in the uk. It is the thing I look forward to the most on a Monday, long may it continue."
  • "I'm 28 and I've been listening to you for 4 years. I've always heard you talk about prageru but I never actually visited the site. 4 days ago I decided to finally check it out and from then until now, I have watched every video you have on thete and have even had 2 friends who have started to learn from there as well. The videos are very informative and keeps you wanting more. To anyone who was like me and has yet to go to the site, I strongly advise you try it out, you won't be disappointed. Thank you Mr. Prager for all your good doing. Manny"

PragerU Impact Report (last page):
  • "I used to be a communist, but thanks to PragerU, I am now a conservative"
  • "From radical leftie to an open-minded critical thinker, and I owe it all to you."

Yeah, PragerU is an unbiased source on how good PragerU is.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:41 pm
by Thermodolia
Strahcoin wrote:
Highever wrote:Guess that's why they threw them into death camps and such.

Hitler murdered many political opponents and those who don't exactly conform to his beliefs. Even his own SA officers weren't spared, despite their loyalties.

Ifreann wrote:You think so? I'd be more of the opinion that if you go to a rally where there are a bunch of Nazis on your side, and you decide to hang around with the Nazis instead of turning right the fuck around and going home, then you're basically a Nazi too.

It's important to understand the ideologies and thoughts of those who disagree with you (including that of Nazis). That way, if their ideology is bad (which it is), you can dispute them more easily, because you'll know what they will say and how they will think. This exchange of knowledge is why the First Amendment exists, and it can enlighten all who participate.

Highever wrote:The idea that PragerU makes one more proficient in anything or somehow enlightens someone damn near made me have a spit take.

PragerU Testimonials:
  • "This is the first truly well done conservative YouTube channel that I've been able to find. It's so nice that youth with a more conservative mindset have a place to explore and expand upon their thoughts. I respect this channel even though I'm a liberal."
  • "As a college student who had his mind opened by PragerU, I'm so happy to be donating a portion of what little money I have. There's no price on what you're doing and know that you're doing your part in exposing future generations to a better way of life!"
  • "PragerU, unfortunately, didn't exist until AFTER I graduated college, but since listening it has helped clarify some of my views and gives me a better perspective on why I believe what I believe. It has equipped me to better articulate my values to my peers and for that I am forever grateful."
  • "I'm left of center, yet look forward to each new video. I'm in complete agreement with your views on morality, and common sense life advice. Even the videos I disagree with, I like, because they make me scratch my head."
  • "As a high school student in the Chicago area, I have had liberal views forced upon me in education and by my peers ever since I was a child. Thanks to PragerU that I am able to understand the truth and educate others correctly."
  • "PragerU has opened my eyes to so many things. It's clear and concise way of explaining things has supplied me with the arguments I need to take on the left in the uk. It is the thing I look forward to the most on a Monday, long may it continue."
  • "I'm 28 and I've been listening to you for 4 years. I've always heard you talk about prageru but I never actually visited the site. 4 days ago I decided to finally check it out and from then until now, I have watched every video you have on thete and have even had 2 friends who have started to learn from there as well. The videos are very informative and keeps you wanting more. To anyone who was like me and has yet to go to the site, I strongly advise you try it out, you won't be disappointed. Thank you Mr. Prager for all your good doing. Manny"

PragerU Impact Report (last page):
  • "I used to be a communist, but thanks to PragerU, I am now a conservative"
  • "From radical leftie to an open-minded critical thinker, and I owe it all to you."

I refuse to believe that any of those people are real

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:42 pm
by Wallenburg
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:Yes, they host fascists. For example, Steven Crowder.


You're better than this, stop.

Crowder has propagated the Bell Curve and the whole "western civilization" dogwhistle. He's massively bigoted against pretty much every minority imaginable. I am not sure what you find objectionable about my claim.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:43 pm
by Thermodolia
Kowani wrote:
Strahcoin wrote:PragerU Testimonials:
  • "This is the first truly well done conservative YouTube channel that I've been able to find. It's so nice that youth with a more conservative mindset have a place to explore and expand upon their thoughts. I respect this channel even though I'm a liberal."
  • "As a college student who had his mind opened by PragerU, I'm so happy to be donating a portion of what little money I have. There's no price on what you're doing and know that you're doing your part in exposing future generations to a better way of life!"
  • "PragerU, unfortunately, didn't exist until AFTER I graduated college, but since listening it has helped clarify some of my views and gives me a better perspective on why I believe what I believe. It has equipped me to better articulate my values to my peers and for that I am forever grateful."
  • "I'm left of center, yet look forward to each new video. I'm in complete agreement with your views on morality, and common sense life advice. Even the videos I disagree with, I like, because they make me scratch my head."
  • "As a high school student in the Chicago area, I have had liberal views forced upon me in education and by my peers ever since I was a child. Thanks to PragerU that I am able to understand the truth and educate others correctly."
  • "PragerU has opened my eyes to so many things. It's clear and concise way of explaining things has supplied me with the arguments I need to take on the left in the uk. It is the thing I look forward to the most on a Monday, long may it continue."
  • "I'm 28 and I've been listening to you for 4 years. I've always heard you talk about prageru but I never actually visited the site. 4 days ago I decided to finally check it out and from then until now, I have watched every video you have on thete and have even had 2 friends who have started to learn from there as well. The videos are very informative and keeps you wanting more. To anyone who was like me and has yet to go to the site, I strongly advise you try it out, you won't be disappointed. Thank you Mr. Prager for all your good doing. Manny"

PragerU Impact Report (last page):
  • "I used to be a communist, but thanks to PragerU, I am now a conservative"
  • "From radical leftie to an open-minded critical thinker, and I owe it all to you."

Yeah, PragerU is an unbiased source on how good PragerU is.

Strange how their reviews just rave about them and never saying anything bad

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:43 pm
by Washington Resistance Army
Wallenburg wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
You're better than this, stop.

Crowder has propagated the Bell Curve and the whole "western civilization" dogwhistle. He's massively bigoted against pretty much every minority imaginable. I am not sure what you find objectionable about my claim.


One can be an ass and possibly a racist without being a fascist. As much as some might dislike it that word actually has meaning, and Crowder sure as shit is not one.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:43 pm
by Diopolis
Wallenburg wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
You're better than this, stop.

Crowder has propagated the Bell Curve and the whole "western civilization" dogwhistle. He's massively bigoted against pretty much every minority imaginable. I am not sure what you find objectionable about my claim.

"Being a bigot" is not synonymous with "being a fascist".

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:44 pm
by Thermodolia
Wallenburg wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
You're better than this, stop.

Crowder has propagated the Bell Curve and the whole "western civilization" dogwhistle. He's massively bigoted against pretty much every minority imaginable. I am not sure what you find objectionable about my claim.

So he’s a racist. That still doesn’t mean he’s a fascist. There’s a shit ton of non-fascist racists in the world