Two Senators want Antifa labled domestic terrorists

[Fahran]

So you admit that the Proud Boys and groups like them are terrorists?

Yet another whataboutism. But yes. They're technically terrorists as well.

It is a lie though.

Not really. It lacks nuance, but, again, claiming a particular set of groups constitute terrorist cells isn't the same thing as claiming the majority of those people engage in terrorism personally. Not everyone in the Klan, especially by the late 1960's, actively went out to lynch people or fire-bomb churches. I'm certain some chapters were just racist social clubs. We still rightfully consider them a terrorist movement in respectable circles. Hezbollah's activities do not consist principally in sowing terror, but they're still designated as a terrorist organization. Like I said, I'd treat Antifa and white nationalist groups on an individual basis, but I do see the argument for designating the whole movement given what has made headlines of late.

[Page]

You make a valid point which I will address, but I disagree in the minor regard that I believe most war is ultimately a struggle for resources whose leaders use politics as a disguise to mask wars of exploitation.

Would you accept a modified version of the Websters dictionary definition, "the use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims."? It is modified to remove the word "Unlawful" from in front of "use of violence and intimidation", because that implies that such a thing as law can exonerate terrorist behavior. Unlike my previous definition, it heavily weights civilians being the target of your actions and to what extent intimidation accompanies your violence.

Subjectively speaking, bellow:

I consider the attempts of certain sub-groups within Antifa to be terroristic. For example, the recent attempted bombing of an ICE facility ... One could argue that this is a valid method of resistance against a nation which puts people in concentration camps, except that bombing the concentration camp is a great way to also kill the people who are living there, and in the current circumstance will NOT result in an improvement of their living conditions. There have also not been any Mass Killings, and I literally can't see what such a bombing will achieve except giving more power to the far right and possibly killing immigrants or ICE officers.

Objectively speaking: (If you accept the provided definition of terrorism)

For several incidents of Antifa fucking with unrelated civilians (The People, in the terms of Marx) who were painted as Fascists on surreptitious grounds, I refer you to this quora list of which the first and chosen comment is the worst and most sarcastic:
https://www.quora.com/What-are-some-vid ... protesters

We are not currently embroiled in a war in afghanistan to obtain resources. There are none worth mentioning. And in any case, territorial wars are inherently political.

I ain't touching the rest.

I don't want to sound too conspiratorial, but Afghanistan supplies most of the world's opium, and opioid overdoses in America have a way of killing poor people, so perhaps those in power do have some interest in making sure the opium gets to where they want it. The US government in the 80's let in crack cocaine to devastate black neighborhoods, so it's not entirely crazy to wonder if some people are pleased that people (of every race) are getting hooked on opioids rather than getting organized for political action.

[Fahran]

I don't want to sound too conspiratorial, but Afghanistan supplies most of the world's opium, and opioid overdoses in America have a way of killing poor people, so perhaps those in power do have some interest in making sure the opium gets to where they want it. The US government in the 80's let in crack cocaine to devastate black neighborhoods, so it's not entirely crazy to wonder if some people are pleased that people (of every race) are getting hooked on opioids rather than getting organized for political action.

You do sound conspiratorial.

[Kaltovar]

Because the USA promised to keep fighting nazis under the "never again" creed. Antifa is honoring that promise
Sadly, the country instead rightshifted and became more rightwing than Hitler ever was - so now half of it qualifies as nazi.

If you call everyone right of yourself "Nazis", then you diminish the meaning. Not only is that insulting to those who died from the actual Nazis (such as the Jews that were put into concentration camps during the Holocaust), but it also means nobody would take you seriously.

As a matter of fact, my ancestors ran (not died) from the holocaust and I've found myself labelled as a Nazi for things including (but not limited to)

1: Enjoying the Joe Rogan Podcast
2: Listening to Arch Warhammer
3: Being disgusted by racial bigotry
4: Mixing Cultures
5: Singing along to rap music IN MY OWN HOME while looking white
6: Wanting to have sex with a particular trans person
7: Not wanting to have sex with another, different trans person
8: Hanging out with a black jew who they didn't like
9: Saying that PewDiePie is not a Nazi
10: Saying that I am Jewish and wish people would stop calling everyone Nazis because it's turning actual serious history into a fucking joke (which makes me a race traitor I guess. At least an Antifa member on Twitter told me I was one.)
11: Advocating mercy toward Wehrmacht soldiers because part of the lesson we should have learned in the first place is that it's not acceptable to treat humans like cattle and to judge them as individuals.
12: Saying that I love my ancestral homeland of Germany, which I remind you we were forced out of due to ACTUAL FUCKING REAL LIFE NAZIS.
13: Considering voting for Bernie Sanders out loud (That one was a Republican though, not Antifa)

[Nakena]

If you call everyone right of yourself "Nazis", then you diminish the meaning. Not only is that insulting to those who died from the actual Nazis (such as the Jews that were put into concentration camps during the Holocaust), but it also means nobody would take you seriously.

As a matter of fact, my ancestors ran (not died) from the holocaust and I've found myself labelled as a Nazi for things including (but not limited to)

1: Enjoying the Joe Rogan Podcast
2: Listening to Arch Warhammer
3: Being disgusted by racial bigotry
4: Mixing Cultures
5: Singing along to rap music IN MY OWN HOME while looking white
6: Wanting to have sex with a particular trans person
7: Not wanting to have sex with another, different trans person
8: Hanging out with a black jew who they didn't like
9: Saying that PewDiePie is not a Nazi
10: Saying that I am Jewish and wish people would stop calling everyone Nazis because it's turning actual serious history into a fucking joke (which makes me a race traitor I guess. At least an Antifa member on Twitter told me I was one.)
11: Advocating mercy toward Wehrmacht soldiers because part of the lesson we should have learned in the first place is that it's not acceptable to treat humans like cattle and to judge them as individuals.
12: Saying that I love my ancestral homeland of Germany, which I remind you we were forced out of due to ACTUAL FUCKING REAL LIFE NAZIS.
13: Considering voting for Bernie Sanders out loud (That one was a Republican though, not Antifa)

Baysed. Plz dont change. If someone calls you a nazi because of those things you listed there... just double down.

[Vassenor]

So you admit that the Proud Boys and groups like them are terrorists?

Yet another whataboutism. But yes. They're technically terrorists as well.

So why aren't they being targeted by the government in the same way?

[Page]

I don't want to sound too conspiratorial, but Afghanistan supplies most of the world's opium, and opioid overdoses in America have a way of killing poor people, so perhaps those in power do have some interest in making sure the opium gets to where they want it. The US government in the 80's let in crack cocaine to devastate black neighborhoods, so it's not entirely crazy to wonder if some people are pleased that people (of every race) are getting hooked on opioids rather than getting organized for political action.

You do sound conspiratorial.

Perhaps, but consider this. If one becomes addicted to opioids, they might:

- Die

- Be imprisoned

- Become extremely poor or homeless and only focused on basic survival needs

- Become apathetic or distracted from politics

You might notice that any of these things happening is desirable for the rich and powerful.

[Kaltovar]

We are not currently embroiled in a war in afghanistan to obtain resources. There are none worth mentioning. And in any case, territorial wars are inherently political.

I ain't touching the rest.

I don't want to sound too conspiratorial, but Afghanistan supplies most of the world's opium, and opioid overdoses in America have a way of killing poor people, so perhaps those in power do have some interest in making sure the opium gets to where they want it. The US government in the 80's let in crack cocaine to devastate black neighborhoods, so it's not entirely crazy to wonder if some people are pleased that people (of every race) are getting hooked on opioids rather than getting organized for political action.

I would question whether they want to kill poor people in that way, but wouldn't be totally shocked.

I do happen to know for a fact that many Black Ops are funded using opium money that comes out of Afghanistan because I have known people who loaded the Opium on that flew into the US. Believe it or not they were forced into that role, and not cut part of the profits (and very religious, which is why they took every chance they could to discuss it). You can believe me or not, but I know that the opium there buys a lot of American operatives a lot of guns.

This doesn't mean Russia or China is good, though. They do EXACTLY THE SAME KINDS OF THINGS ... For example, China gets a lot of it's deniable income from organ harvesting. Russia sells weapons to almost anyone with a pulse, and then looks up their enemies to sell them weapons too, and then goes back to the original guy and threatens to cut his enemy a deal on some cheap new shit if he doesn't buy a bunch of old shit for a lot of money.

The world is dark and fucked and lots of powerful cavemen are beating each other over the head for big shiny golden pieces of meat.

[Holy Tedalonia]

"Lie some more" Are you brain dead or something?
terrorism
[ˈterəˌrizəm]

NOUN
the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.
"the fight against terrorism"


ANTIFA is the definition of terrorism

Which does nothing to address their point that ANTIFA is not some sort of centralized and standardized group that all share exactly common tactics, ideas, and methods. Some organizations that use the ANTIFA label may very well be guilty of violent acts, while others have not done anything of the sort.

Do you believe the KKK should be called domestic terrorists? Considering that they too are not a centralized and standardized group. I mean they may share tactics, ideas, and methods to a extent, but not completely. Similar to what I expect ANTIFA would do.

[Fahran]

You might notice that any of these things happening is desirable for the rich and powerful.

Not necessarily. Widespread chronic drug abuse tends to coincide with and lend itself to chronic poverty, chronic criminality, and chronic violence. Given that the recent opioid crisis has impacted the middle-class as well as the destitute, it isn't especially desirable to politicians or businessmen. You don't want rates of crime and violence increasing broadly across society. It's not good for the economy or for social order. Not to mention that revolution hasn't been a realistic threat in the US since the 1930's.

I'll also point out that the Taliban are drug dealers as well.

[Kaltovar]

Baysed. Plz dont change. If someone calls you a nazi because of those things you listed there... just double down.

Thanks, I won't! I just get genuinely excited whenever I meet another person who DGAF about race/sex/orientation/tribal politics and wants to talk on a one to one level as human beings who view their ideas as infinitely more important than the body that exists around the brain which thought of them or what people do in their free time.

[Fahran]

So why aren't they being targeted by the government in the same way?

Do you concede that we should designate Antifa then?

[The South Falls]

If you call everyone right of yourself "Nazis", then you diminish the meaning. Not only is that insulting to those who died from the actual Nazis (such as the Jews that were put into concentration camps during the Holocaust), but it also means nobody would take you seriously.

As a matter of fact, my ancestors ran (not died) from the holocaust and I've found myself labelled as a Nazi for things including (but not limited to)

1: Enjoying the Joe Rogan Podcast
2: Listening to Arch Warhammer
3: Being disgusted by racial bigotry
4: Mixing Cultures
5: Singing along to rap music IN MY OWN HOME while looking white
6: Wanting to have sex with a particular trans person
7: Not wanting to have sex with another, different trans person
8: Hanging out with a black jew who they didn't like
9: Saying that PewDiePie is not a Nazi
10: Saying that I am Jewish and wish people would stop calling everyone Nazis because it's turning actual serious history into a fucking joke (which makes me a race traitor I guess. At least an Antifa member on Twitter told me I was one.)
11: Advocating mercy toward Wehrmacht soldiers because part of the lesson we should have learned in the first place is that it's not acceptable to treat humans like cattle and to judge them as individuals.
12: Saying that I love my ancestral homeland of Germany, which I remind you we were forced out of due to ACTUAL FUCKING REAL LIFE NAZIS.
13: Considering voting for Bernie Sanders out loud (That one was a Republican though, not Antifa)

I mean, those are some wack things to be called a Nazi for. Some of that is controversial, but def not nazi material. Go out there and get 'em, brother.

[Tekania]

Antifa aren't terrorists, and labeling them as such sets a dangerous precedent. They can be violent criminals, and if members of Antifa commit vandalism and violent crimes they should be prosecuted and dealt with by the law. Calling them all terrorists is probably a step too far.

Well if you're unlawfully using violence primarily in a civilian sense for the purpose of affecting some political aim that is by definition terrorism. I'm not sure why it would be an prohibited word to apply to antifa who are in fact engaging in that.

[Kaltovar]

Do you believe the KKK should be called domestic terrorists? Considering that they too are not a centralized and standardized group. I mean they may share tactics, ideas, and methods to a extent, but not completely. Similar to what I expect ANTIFA would do.

My belief on them is the same as mine on Antifa:

People shouldn't be considered terrorists JUST for attending meetings or associating themselves with the Klan ... But the FBI should heavily infiltrate them (They do) and Klan members who participate in plotting sufficiently violent or fucked up activities should be clipped (In the form of an arrest and serious jail time) before they hurt anyone.

[Kaltovar]

I mean, those are some wack things to be called a Nazi for. Some of that is controversial, but def not nazi material. Go out there and get 'em, brother.

TBH I intentionally hang out in very sheltered, bubbly echo-chambers because I go out of my way to inject outside thought into them. I like, specifically jump into weird conversations about Joe Rogan being a secret Fascist. So I guess I shouldn't be shocked when those people assume that somebody defending him is also a Secret Nazi.

I'm constantly having to remind myself that my view of society is pretty warped because of the number of unusually crazy people I talk to, and that it really isn't representative of most people.

EDIT: Sorry for the Double Post

[Holy Tedalonia]

Do you believe the KKK should be called domestic terrorists? Considering that they too are not a centralized and standardized group. I mean they may share tactics, ideas, and methods to a extent, but not completely. Similar to what I expect ANTIFA would do.

My belief on them is the same as mine on Antifa:

People shouldn't be considered terrorists JUST for attending meetings or associating themselves with the Klan ... But the FBI should heavily infiltrate them (They do) and Klan members who participate in plotting sufficiently violent or fucked up activities should be clipped (In the form of an arrest and serious jail time) before they hurt anyone.

Agreed. I wouldn't call them terrorists myself, but I would call them perhaps domestic troublemakers, but perhaps that's a tad generous. They certainly stir up trouble enough to fit into a area of not terrorists but not a innocent organization either.

[Strahcoin]

I just got reported XD viewtopic.php?f=16&t=469116

But you didn't flame. Necroghastia was repeatedly and falsely claiming that Nova Cyberia was lying (without giving a shred of proof).

Moreover, it is strange they would report you for this, yet defend Antifa for far worse. Almost as if there was a double standard...

[The South Falls]

I mean, those are some wack things to be called a Nazi for. Some of that is controversial, but def not nazi material. Go out there and get 'em, brother.

TBH I intentionally hang out in very sheltered, bubbly echo-chambers because I go out of my way to inject outside thought into them. I like, specifically jump into weird conversations about Joe Rogan being a secret Fascist. So I guess I shouldn't be shocked when those people assume that somebody defending him is also a Secret Nazi.

I'm constantly having to remind myself that my view of society is pretty warped because of the number of unusually crazy people I talk to, and that it really isn't representative of most people.

EDIT: Sorry for the Double Post

I'd think that that's kinda fun, though depending on the level of toxicity of where you go (r/politics, r/T_D and all the HAES places) coming to mind, it'll wear on ya.

[Strahcoin]

If you call everyone right of yourself "Nazis", then you diminish the meaning. Not only is that insulting to those who died from the actual Nazis (such as the Jews that were put into concentration camps during the Holocaust), but it also means nobody would take you seriously.

As a matter of fact, my ancestors ran (not died) from the holocaust and I've found myself labelled as a Nazi for things including (but not limited to)

1: Enjoying the Joe Rogan Podcast
2: Listening to Arch Warhammer
3: Being disgusted by racial bigotry
4: Mixing Cultures
5: Singing along to rap music IN MY OWN HOME while looking white
6: Wanting to have sex with a particular trans person
7: Not wanting to have sex with another, different trans person
8: Hanging out with a black jew who they didn't like
9: Saying that PewDiePie is not a Nazi
10: Saying that I am Jewish and wish people would stop calling everyone Nazis because it's turning actual serious history into a fucking joke (which makes me a race traitor I guess. At least an Antifa member on Twitter told me I was one.)
11: Advocating mercy toward Wehrmacht soldiers because part of the lesson we should have learned in the first place is that it's not acceptable to treat humans like cattle and to judge them as individuals.
12: Saying that I love my ancestral homeland of Germany, which I remind you we were forced out of due to ACTUAL FUCKING REAL LIFE NAZIS.
13: Considering voting for Bernie Sanders out loud (That one was a Republican though, not Antifa)

I don't think you're a Nazi. While I disagree with you on points 6 and 13, you still have the freedom to want what you want or consider anything legal. Those who label you a Nazi for such small, personal things either don't know what "Nazi" means or are doing something morally/ethically wrong (including the Republican mentioned in point 13, unless if there's more to the story).

[Kaltovar]

My belief on them is the same as mine on Antifa:

People shouldn't be considered terrorists JUST for attending meetings or associating themselves with the Klan ... But the FBI should heavily infiltrate them (They do) and Klan members who participate in plotting sufficiently violent or fucked up activities should be clipped (In the form of an arrest and serious jail time) before they hurt anyone.

Agreed. I wouldn't call them terrorists myself, but I would call them perhaps domestic troublemakers, but perhaps that's a tad generous. They certainly stir up trouble enough to fit into a area of not terrorists but not a innocent organization either.

Yeah, and part of what I really appreciate about living in a free society is that we tolerate troublemakers like the Klan and Antifa but still take action when they do something fucked up.

I've been part of some groups that some people would probably designate as terrorist if they had the power ... When I was younger I was part of a militia (relatively right wing, but obviously not having any racial elements given my family history) and when I was a bit older I ended up joining a Socialist Rifle club (not actually a socialist anymore. I believe in a semi-autonomous (as in, Cybernetic) large central government which permits capitalism and uses Democracy for many (but not all) things but also embarks on broad state-owned initiatives using robotic labor to emancipate the lower class from common work ... But that's a story for another day)

In both groups people talked shit about overthrowing the government all day, and hell maybe some day a member from either group might be just a little too twitchy and actually pull some shit. I wouldn't want to be treated like a fuckin' AQ member because I was an associate who was immature and didn't participate or even know it was going to happen, and I don't want to fuck up some 23 year old Antifa member's life just BC they were at a protest where other Antifa members did some shit either.

[Vassenor]

So why aren't they being targeted by the government in the same way?

Do you concede that we should designate Antifa then?

>complains about whataboutism

>engages in whataboutism

[Kaltovar]

I'd think that that's kinda fun, though depending on the level of toxicity of where you go (r/politics, r/T_D and all the HAES places) coming to mind, it'll wear on ya.

I might actually need to take a serious break from that and find some communities that are less radical and exclusionary, but I'll admit that a lot of the time it really is pretty fun! I spend an inordinate amount of time laughing my ass off and being terrified, and neither of those are boring.

I don't think you're a Nazi. While I disagree with you on points 6 and 13, you still have the freedom to want what you want or consider anything legal. Those who label you a Nazi for such small, personal things either don't know what "Nazi" means or are doing something morally/ethically wrong (including the Republican mentioned in point 13, unless if there's more to the story).

Thanks! And there really wasn't more to that story, but that person isn't a good representation of Republicans either. I was including that story to have an example of a right-wing person also doing it, to hopefully show the people who are more likely these days to use the term Nazi what it feels like to be called one for totally absurd reasons. Although hilariously, I've also had left-wing people call me sexist for saying Bernie Sanders was a better candidate than Hillary despite the fact their politics are completely different and gender is literally the last thing I would rank them on (and him having a higher ratio of female and minority supporters than most candidates makes the whole "Bernie Bro" myth even more absurd)

[Tekania]

I just got reported XD viewtopic.php?f=16&t=469116

But you didn't flame. Necroghastia was repeatedly and falsely claiming that Nova Cyberia was lying (without giving a shred of proof).

Moreover, it is strange they would report you for this, yet defend Antifa for far worse. Almost as if there was a double standard...

Generally on this site people are entitled to be morons, idiots, brain-dead, or what not. If one wants to demonstrate someone is an idiot just contrast their statements against previous statements and the facts. There is no need to bring insults into the process. If someone is a moron then it can be demonstrating without applying a word that can be construed as insulting.

[Fahran]

>complains about whataboutism

>engages in whataboutism

This thread isn't discussing the designation of the Proud Boys...

You brought that subject up. Answer the question. Should we designate Antifa or certain Antifa groups as domestic terrorist organizations? We can discuss other groups after we arrive at an answer to that question.