NATION

PASSWORD

Betrayed by MI6

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Would you betray the United Kingdom?

Yes (primarily to stop the torture and just die, I can't take it anymore)
5
11%
Yes (to get revenge against the United Kingdom for selling me out)
16
34%
No (my hatred of the Chinese government exceeds my hatred of my own government's betrayal of me, besides, it was partly my own fault)
12
26%
No (Loyalty is something I NEVER compromise on, and I swore an oath to serve the UK, in my final moments I will remain true to that oath even at the cost of great pain)
14
30%
 
Total votes : 47

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Infected Mushroom
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Betrayed by MI6

Postby Infected Mushroom » Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:58 am

Please consider the following James Bond inspired hypothetical:

You are a young British MI6 agent at some point in the future, sworn to serve the interests of the United Kingdom and Her Majesty.

You have been deployed in the Middle East with some success.

Soon after, your superior, who is your mentor and close friend, orders you to deploy in Hong Kong under a cover identity. Whilst in Hong Kong, your mission is to investigate the actions of the mainland Chinese government. The UK suspects that China may be drawing up plans to stage a series of incidents to decisively undermine the self-governance of Hong Kong.

While in Hong Kong, you uncover some leads which suggest foul play on the part of the Chinese government with respect to several high profile incidents in Africa, Taiwan, Hong Kong and Southeast Asia. You have no proof so you seek to investigate further; some PRC agents try to stop you but you manage to either throw them off or kill them.

You ask for permission from your superior to extend the operation to the Chinese mainland where you could work contacts to uncover the truth. You would also like to hack the Chinese and find out more (these things go beyond your mission parameters).

Your superior consults with the Queen. The PM or someone really high up gets cold feet; they decide to call off the whole thing because "things could get ugly." Despite your protests, you are told that your mission is over, not to mess with China any further, and to come home to the UK for your medals. You are expressly told NOT to hack the Chinese.

Deciding that the right thing to do is to investigate further, you proceed to step up the investigation against your instructions. You hack the Chinese government and start to investigate a few leads deep inside China. This time, your luck runs out and the Chinese government tracks you down. You attempt to fight them off but you are wounded and captured.

You wake up, tied to a chair somewhere in the Chinese west. The Chinese decide that you are a gold mine of information and intelligence and they want you to betray your country. Because you are loyal to Her Majesty, you refuse to cooperate. The Chinese decide to torture you, they do so for over five months...

Finally, they supply you ironclad proof that your superior gave you up to them shortly after finding out you had started the unauthorised investigation and hacking. The British government didn't want you to ruin a major free trade deal that was coming up (they needed the cheap Chinese labour and goods to keep political promises to the workers, all the while denouncing China's human rights abuses in public... you threatened this balance). So they calmed the Dragon down by trading you in. It was all part of some kind of a deal you will never fully understand.

...

At this point you are 100% a dead person. You estimate maybe you can take a few more days of torture (AT MOST if irl you has strong pain tolerance) before your mind snaps into oblivion. You will likely die much sooner if you do choose to continue to stay loyal to the United Kingdom (you have sworn an oath to stay loyal to the UK and to never cooperate with the enemy when captured; talking would be treason).

If you tell the Chinese government what they want or need to hear, they will likely kill you much sooner but your suffering will be over and done with and you will also have, in your own way, struck back at the nation that has betrayed you.

...

The discussion is as follows:

Assuming you are 100% dead (because you know the Chinese are either going to kill you after you tell them what they want/need to hear or they will keep torturing you for ~1 month at which point you either die or go catatonic)

In your last moments do you stay loyal to the United Kingdom or do you betray the United Kingdom because they technically stabbed you in the back?

Please keep in mind that earlier in the scenario, you chose to disobey a direct command (but out of a desire to do good).

Please keep in mind that you will be tortured further if you don't play along (indefinitely though you estimate you can AT MOST take maybe one more month but that's stretching).

Please justify your decision.

I think it's time to talk. Five months? How did I even last so long under torture to begin with... This is very out of character for me so if I suddenly assumed command of the character, I'm talking to put an end to the torture.

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Pacomia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Pacomia » Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:02 am

I just wouldn’t want to be tortured anymore, and would probably do whatever it takes to end that. Also, my disloyalty could be further justified by the Brits betraying ME.
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Iwassoclose
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Ex-Nation

Postby Iwassoclose » Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:04 am

i become this guy

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Fartsniffage
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Fartsniffage » Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:04 am

I would talk after my first check in point was missed. We no longer tell operatives that they have to hold out until they die because we know that everyone breaks under torture eventually. That's why anything useful an operative knows is changed if they miss checking in.

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Romae in Perpetuum
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Postby Romae in Perpetuum » Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:07 am

As an agent of the crown, I took an oath to both Her Majesty and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. But more importantly than that, the UK is my home, it's where my friends and family work and it's where my fellow agents work. Any information I give to the Chinese could not only damage my country, but also all the people I love in it. The lives of my fellow agents would be at risk, and whilst I wouldn't like being burnt, I disobeyed a direct order and have to bear the consequences of that.

Notions of Queen and Country are grand and inspiring, but at the end of the day ill endure the torture to protect by friends and loved ones and deny those Chinese authoritarian bastards anything but the most derogatory of insults.

I'd like to say God Save the Queen will be my last words, but it would probably be: is that all you got you red prick?! :lol:
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Heloin
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Ex-Nation

Postby Heloin » Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:08 am

I went around my higher ups like an idiot and risked everything for leads that I should have know were too great of a risk. Plus I allowed myself to be captured rather then dying before hand, I'm clearly someone that MI6 could do without. Queen and Country, start talking immediately.
Last edited by Heloin on Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:12 am, edited 2 times in total.

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The Free Joy State
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Ex-Nation

Postby The Free Joy State » Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:13 am

Where's the pretend-to-cooperate-to-shorten-the-torture-but-feed-them-false-and-utterly-useless-information option?

That seems like a winning strategy. Pretend to cooperate, feed them plausible information -- just realistic enough to be believable, but not real enough that it would be any use -- and then be executed (as, apparently, there's no chance of survival).
Last edited by The Free Joy State on Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Pacomia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Pacomia » Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:13 am

Play uno reverse card and become Chinese secret service agent
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Soviet Tankistan
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Founded: Mar 27, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Soviet Tankistan » Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:13 am

I have no favor for the crown or the PRC.
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Ifreann
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Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Ifreann » Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:16 am

If the Chinese government know that I was handed over to them by MI6, why would they be torturing me for information? If I had any valuable information then MI6 would have sent people to extract me when I failed to return from Hong Kong as ordered. The Chinese should realise that nothing I know can possibly be that important or I wouldn't have been given up. And I should realise that as well and, as Sniffage said, spill all the beans.
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The Free Joy State
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Ex-Nation

Postby The Free Joy State » Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:18 am

Fartsniffage wrote:I would talk after my first check in point was missed. We no longer tell operatives that they have to hold out until they die because we know that everyone breaks under torture eventually. That's why anything useful an operative knows is changed if they miss checking in.

Oh, I missed this post.

In that case, my answer is: sing like a canary at the first opportunity.
"If there's a book that you want to read, but it hasn't been written yet, then you must write it." - Toni Morrison

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Heloin
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Ex-Nation

Postby Heloin » Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:23 am

The Free Joy State wrote:Where's the pretend-to-cooperate-to-shorten-the-torture-but-feed-them-false-and-utterly-useless-information option?

That seems like a winning strategy. Pretend to cooperate, feed them plausible information -- just realistic enough to be believable, but not real enough that it would be any use -- and then be executed (as, apparently, there's no chance of survival).

If we are a real field operative we can just tell them the truth. We wouldn't know any information useful to the Chinese government outside of our failed mission.

That being said since the OP states "You would also like to hack the Chinese" I doubt any of this is actually using reality as a basis.

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Infected Mushroom
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:25 am

Ifreann wrote:If the Chinese government know that I was handed over to them by MI6, why would they be torturing me for information? If I had any valuable information then MI6 would have sent people to extract me when I failed to return from Hong Kong as ordered. The Chinese should realise that nothing I know can possibly be that important or I wouldn't have been given up. And I should realise that as well and, as Sniffage said, spill all the beans.


Sometimes torture is primarily about asserting domination and control

I’m not saying it is in this hypothetical, the motives and exact standing of the Chinese is deliberately ambiguous
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:26 am, edited 3 times in total.

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The Free Joy State
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Ex-Nation

Postby The Free Joy State » Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:26 am

Heloin wrote:
The Free Joy State wrote:Where's the pretend-to-cooperate-to-shorten-the-torture-but-feed-them-false-and-utterly-useless-information option?

That seems like a winning strategy. Pretend to cooperate, feed them plausible information -- just realistic enough to be believable, but not real enough that it would be any use -- and then be executed (as, apparently, there's no chance of survival).

If we are a real field operative we can just tell them the truth. We wouldn't know any information useful to the Chinese government outside of our failed mission.

That being said since the OP states "You would also like to hack the Chinese" I doubt any of this is actually using reality as a basis.

I belatedly saw Fartsniffage's post and changed my answer. Now I'll just tell them everything.

God save the Queen, et cetera, et cetera and so forth...
Last edited by The Free Joy State on Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ifreann
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Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Ifreann » Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:27 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Ifreann wrote:If the Chinese government know that I was handed over to them by MI6, why would they be torturing me for information? If I had any valuable information then MI6 would have sent people to extract me when I failed to return from Hong Kong as ordered. The Chinese should realise that nothing I know can possibly be that important or I wouldn't have been given up. And I should realise that as well and, as Sniffage said, spill all the beans.


Sometimes torture us about asserting domination and control

In which case it hardly matters whether I talk or not. No reason not to talk.

I’m not saying it is in this hypothetical, the motives and exact of the Chinese is deliberately ambiguous

Well they're probably just mad at me for spying on them, which I can't really do anything about.
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beating the devil
we never run from the devil
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Risottia
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Risottia » Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:50 am

Most defs the spy betrayed the MI6 by disobeying clear orders.
.

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New Bremerton
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Ex-Nation

Postby New Bremerton » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:08 am

I would take a cyanide pill if one is available, otherwise I would break my own neck and spite both the British and Chinese governments.
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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:17 pm

“I would hack the Chinese government.” Eye twitches
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Heloin
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Ex-Nation

Postby Heloin » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:13 pm

Kowani wrote:“I would hack the Chinese government.” Eye twitches

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Pacomia
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Postby Pacomia » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:16 pm

First post gang
This nation is based on (a slightly more extreme version of) my IRL opinions, and I answer issues accordingly.
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Thermodolia
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:24 pm

This all assumes I’d even work for the Brits and not stab MI6 in the back to support the Irish
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Ethel mermania
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Ethel mermania » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:58 pm

Well I wouldnt have disobeyed the stand down order.

That said I dont know how I would react to that much torture. I would guess I would talk, but who knows.
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Ethel mermania
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Ethel mermania » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:00 pm

Heloin wrote:
Kowani wrote:“I would hack the Chinese government.” Eye twitches

Image


True enough. Your biggest security risk is your dumbest user.
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The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.
--S. Huntington

The most fundamental problem of politics is not the control of wickedness but the limitation of righteousness. 

--H. Kissenger

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Thermodolia
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:11 pm

Going against express orders in order to investigate further is something I wouldn’t have done. Besides I would have gone after my superiors because I wouldn’t have trusted them after they shut down the op right after I find some shit. I would have found that extremely suspicious.
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-Ocelot-
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Ex-Nation

Postby -Ocelot- » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:33 pm

Working for the MI6 and refusing an order is something no one qualified to work there in the first place would do. Unless if you are planning to harm the agency in the first place.

If you get caught because you disobeyed an order, it means that a) You are a horrible agent and b) The UK letting you rot is the least they can do to punish you.

In a fair world, I'd let myself die out of shame. Realistically, if I am so stupid and inept as to ignore an order, I'd most likely cooperate with the Chinese and die later.

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