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Berkley to cease using gendered language like "manhole"

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Should other cities remove gendered words from their vocabulary too?

Of course. 'Manhole' is an inherently offensive term.
34
14%
No. I like my gendered words the way they are.
80
33%
Quarantine Berkley.
130
53%
 
Total votes : 244

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Shofercia
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Postby Shofercia » Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:10 pm

Recidivism wrote:
Shofercia wrote:
Yeah, the Asian-American community's doing that with Harvard. Lawsuit's still buffering. "Just sue them" is not an easy task against a billion dollar institution. That said, Asian American admissions rose by nearly 12% during the lawsuit. What a coincidence!


Ok, well that’s the only legal mechanism available. Also, the plaintiffs in this lawsuit have some powerful people on their side.


It's actually not. You can always boycott, or write to your local representative asking to investigate the institution, or send letters to the institution's supporters about their actions, etc. There are quite a few things that you can do, that are legal, and don't require thousands, if not tens of thousands of dollars. Let's not be utilizing NSG to pretend that lawsuits are the only way, in a thread about manholes, eh Recidivism? Oh, here's another thing: you can always elect politicians that will work to ban all sorts of racial considerations. That's also legal.
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Postby Recidivism » Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:15 pm

Shofercia wrote:
Recidivism wrote:
Ok, well that’s the only legal mechanism available. Also, the plaintiffs in this lawsuit have some powerful people on their side.


It's actually not. You can always boycott, or write to your local representative asking to investigate the institution, or send letters to the institution's supporters about their actions, etc. There are quite a few things that you can do, that are legal, and don't require thousands, if not tens of thousands of dollars. Let's not be utilizing NSG to pretend that lawsuits are the only way, in a thread about manholes, eh Recidivism? Oh, here's another thing: you can always elect politicians that will work to ban all sorts of racial considerations. That's also legal.


I’m talking about legal mechanism, by which I mean actions within the judicial system. Filing a lawsuit is a legal mechanism. Writing a letter to your representative is not a legal mechanism.

Also, even if you are right here, you are just undermining yourself. You are just pointing out more ways that somebody could take on a university, while your original claim was that it’s often too o difficult to do so.
Last edited by Recidivism on Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Recidivism
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Postby Recidivism » Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:17 pm

When I said “No, they’re not”, I meant that this sort of dystopian future that he was afraid of wouldn’t pan out in any meaningful way, since anybody who implements a racial quota will inevitably face severe financial penalties and legal reprimands. Universities may try to, but they will ultimately fail.

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Shofercia
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Postby Shofercia » Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:51 pm

Recidivism wrote:When I said “No, they’re not”, I meant that this sort of dystopian future that he was afraid of wouldn’t pan out in any meaningful way, since anybody who implements a racial quota will inevitably face severe financial penalties and legal reprimands. Universities may try to, but they will ultimately fail.


Clearly Harvard's failing... /sarcasm

Also, Kekistan's claim was, and I quote: Libs will try to "equalize" STEM by setting up racial quotas...

It says "will try to" rather than "will succeed" doesn't it, Recidivism? Weren't you the one talking about the importance of reading?


Recidivism wrote:
Shofercia wrote:
It's actually not. You can always boycott, or write to your local representative asking to investigate the institution, or send letters to the institution's supporters about their actions, etc. There are quite a few things that you can do, that are legal, and don't require thousands, if not tens of thousands of dollars. Let's not be utilizing NSG to pretend that lawsuits are the only way, in a thread about manholes, eh Recidivism? Oh, here's another thing: you can always elect politicians that will work to ban all sorts of racial considerations. That's also legal.


I’m talking about legal mechanism, by which I mean actions within the judicial system. Filing a lawsuit is a legal mechanism. Writing a letter to your representative is not a legal mechanism.

Also, even if you are right here, you are just undermining yourself. You are just pointing out more ways that somebody could take on a university, while your original claim was that it’s often too o difficult to do so.


Once again, you're imagining things. I said that it was "not an easy task against a billion dollar institution" which isn't the same as claiming that it's too difficult. My point was that universities are engaging in it, despite the SCOTUS ruling, not that universities are too difficult to oppose.
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Postby Tristian » Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:03 pm

I don't like the name Berkeley. I feel offended by it. They should rename their city and clean up all the garbage while they are at it.
Last edited by Tristian on Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby The Black Forrest » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:10 pm

Tristian wrote:I don't like the name Berkley. I feel offended by it. They should rename their city and clean up all the garbage while they are at it.


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Postby Vassenor » Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:18 am

So have we actually established what makes this bad beyond it triggering rightists?
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Postby SD_Film Artists » Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:28 am

Recidivism wrote:
SD_Film Artists wrote:
Hear hear! :clap:


STEM and tech are good and all that, but let's not lionize anybody here. Tech leaders have yet to fully consider the wider social and political implications of their work. They know how to get from point a to point b, but not whether we should.

i.e. praising science is not the solution to humanity's problems



I don't think we should have an unbridled technocracy, I just believe that science should be pursued without party-politics getting in the way. And by "politics" I mean matters which don't directly relate to the research. For example:

Politician stopping research on the effects of cannabis because the result would likely undermine his anti-drugs policy- Bad

An ethics committee stopping attempts to create designer babies- Good.

Ofcourse the line between politics and ethics can be blurred, but the important thing is that we make decisions based on the truth rather than silencing the truth.
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Postby Galloism » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:42 am

Vassenor wrote:So have we actually established what makes this bad beyond it triggering rightists?

I mean, it's somewhat interesting that their city code explicitly has a Commission on the Status of Women, while having no Commission on the Status of Men, and yet they remove "manhole" references in the pursuit of gender equality.

It's somewhat amusing that they do something for equality that does nothing to further equality, while simultaneously preserving explicit inequality of representation to the council in their city code, wouldn't you agree?

https://www.codepublishing.com/CA/Berkeley/

It's section 3.48

Edit:
And they, like other places, are pursuing arrests disproportionately targeting men as a gender and black people and Hispanics. But don't take my word for it.

https://data.cityofberkeley.info/Public ... /xi7q-nji6

But "manholes", a gender neutral term, in the city code. That's the bigotry they need to fix.
Last edited by Galloism on Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Abaja » Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:41 am

Their next move is changing "Average Joe" "Average Joanna"
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Postby Pacomia » Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:44 am

Abaja wrote:Their next move is changing "Average Joe" "Average Joanna"

"Joan" is way better for that one.
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Recidivism
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Postby Recidivism » Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:40 pm

Shofercia wrote:It says "will try to" rather than "will succeed" doesn't it, Recidivism? Weren't you the one talking about the importance of reading?


Ok Wittgenstein. His implication was that they would both try and succeed, which is why is it would be dangerous to let them have power. In any case, I told you what I meant. I think it would be much more interesting for us (and everyone else) to debate what I meant rather than squabble over textual minutiae that occurred in a fast-paced conversation. Also, if you thought that I literally meant liberals wouldn't even attempt to instill racial quotas, which is an incredibly low bar to meet, then that is a ridiculously uncharitable interpretation.


Once again, you're imagining things. I said that it was "not an easy task against a billion dollar institution" which isn't the same as claiming that it's too difficult. My point was that universities are engaging in it, despite the SCOTUS ruling, not that universities are too difficult to oppose.


Imprecise phrasing, but the basic point remains. You are pointing out ways in which the task would be made easier.

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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:07 pm

Pacomia wrote:
Abaja wrote:Their next move is changing "Average Joe" "Average Joanna"

"Joan" is way better for that one.


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Postby Sverigesriket » Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:58 pm

Galloism wrote:
Vassenor wrote:So have we actually established what makes this bad beyond it triggering rightists?

I mean, it's somewhat interesting that their city code explicitly has a Commission on the Status of Women, while having no Commission on the Status of Men, and yet they remove "manhole" references in the pursuit of gender equality.

It's somewhat amusing that they do something for equality that does nothing to further equality, while simultaneously preserving explicit inequality of representation to the council in their city code, wouldn't you agree?

https://www.codepublishing.com/CA/Berkeley/

It's section 3.48

Edit:
And they, like other places, are pursuing arrests disproportionately targeting men as a gender and black people and Hispanics. But don't take my word for it.

https://data.cityofberkeley.info/Public ... /xi7q-nji6

But "manholes", a gender neutral term, in the city code. That's the bigotry they need to fix.

What do you mean by Section 3.48? Section 3 deals with the boundaries, Section 48 (which deals with the council and may be what you're referring to) was repealed, and I can't find any Section 3.48.

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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:19 pm

Galloism wrote:
Vassenor wrote:So have we actually established what makes this bad beyond it triggering rightists?

I mean, it's somewhat interesting that their city code explicitly has a Commission on the Status of Women, while having no Commission on the Status of Men, and yet they remove "manhole" references in the pursuit of gender equality.

It's somewhat amusing that they do something for equality that does nothing to further equality, while simultaneously preserving explicit inequality of representation to the council in their city code, wouldn't you agree?

https://www.codepublishing.com/CA/Berkeley/

It's section 3.48

Edit:
And they, like other places, are pursuing arrests disproportionately targeting men as a gender and black people and Hispanics. But don't take my word for it.

https://data.cityofberkeley.info/Public ... /xi7q-nji6

But "manholes", a gender neutral term, in the city code. That's the bigotry they need to fix.


So basically men are the most oppressed in the history of ever, as usual.
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Tombradyonia
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Postby Tombradyonia » Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:30 pm

Vassenor wrote:
Galloism wrote:I mean, it's somewhat interesting that their city code explicitly has a Commission on the Status of Women, while having no Commission on the Status of Men, and yet they remove "manhole" references in the pursuit of gender equality.

It's somewhat amusing that they do something for equality that does nothing to further equality, while simultaneously preserving explicit inequality of representation to the council in their city code, wouldn't you agree?

https://www.codepublishing.com/CA/Berkeley/

It's section 3.48

Edit:
And they, like other places, are pursuing arrests disproportionately targeting men as a gender and black people and Hispanics. But don't take my word for it.

https://data.cityofberkeley.info/Public ... /xi7q-nji6

But "manholes", a gender neutral term, in the city code. That's the bigotry they need to fix.


So basically men are the most oppressed in the history of ever, as usual.


All these basement dwelling white male christian conservatives and 4-chan-types will tell you that white male christian conservatives are the most persecuted group in history! Remember how Lincoln dared to oppress white people by telling them treason was treason? Why couldn't he just leave those poor oppressed white southerners alone?

Artist X says something 'mean' about lying conman Trump. Triggered righties flood that person's social media feeds. And so on.

Perhaps we can use the term 'manholes' to refer to these people? I mean, the word's about to become available for redefinition?

"Hey, did you hear about how those manholes attacked this singer for saying Trump is a meanie?"
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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:34 pm

Besides, if we're arguing that "manhole" is not a gendered term, you're arguing that men are being oppressed because the official documents swapped one gender neutral term for another (or rather swapping a colloquial term for a technical term in this case) and that isn't making much sense to me.
Last edited by Vassenor on Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Cappuccina » Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:48 pm

Vassenor wrote:So have we actually established what makes this bad beyond it triggering rightists?

I think that "rightists" and others who have issue with this, are justified in their suspicion of the motive behind Berkeley's decision.

Why did they deem it necessary to change the terms, and to what end?.
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Postby Mettaton-EX » Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:54 pm

how on earth is this a 46-page thread
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Postby EastKekistan » Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:57 pm

Mettaton-EX wrote:how on earth is this a 46-page thread

Exactly. It's boring.
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Postby Galloism » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:06 pm

Sverigesriket wrote:
Galloism wrote:I mean, it's somewhat interesting that their city code explicitly has a Commission on the Status of Women, while having no Commission on the Status of Men, and yet they remove "manhole" references in the pursuit of gender equality.

It's somewhat amusing that they do something for equality that does nothing to further equality, while simultaneously preserving explicit inequality of representation to the council in their city code, wouldn't you agree?

https://www.codepublishing.com/CA/Berkeley/

It's section 3.48

Edit:
And they, like other places, are pursuing arrests disproportionately targeting men as a gender and black people and Hispanics. But don't take my word for it.

https://data.cityofberkeley.info/Public ... /xi7q-nji6

But "manholes", a gender neutral term, in the city code. That's the bigotry they need to fix.

What do you mean by Section 3.48? Section 3 deals with the boundaries, Section 48 (which deals with the council and may be what you're referring to) was repealed, and I can't find any Section 3.48.

Title 3 deals with boards, commissioners, etc. Section 48 of title 3 has the Commission on the Status of Women.
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Postby Galloism » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:08 pm

Vassenor wrote:
Galloism wrote:I mean, it's somewhat interesting that their city code explicitly has a Commission on the Status of Women, while having no Commission on the Status of Men, and yet they remove "manhole" references in the pursuit of gender equality.

It's somewhat amusing that they do something for equality that does nothing to further equality, while simultaneously preserving explicit inequality of representation to the council in their city code, wouldn't you agree?

https://www.codepublishing.com/CA/Berkeley/

It's section 3.48

Edit:
And they, like other places, are pursuing arrests disproportionately targeting men as a gender and black people and Hispanics. But don't take my word for it.

https://data.cityofberkeley.info/Public ... /xi7q-nji6

But "manholes", a gender neutral term, in the city code. That's the bigotry they need to fix.


So basically men are the most oppressed in the history of ever, as usual.

I mean, I gave the links regarding Berkley in particular. You can ignore the evidence if you want.

Par for the course.
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New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:08 pm

Vassenor wrote:Besides, if we're arguing that "manhole" is not a gendered term, you're arguing that men are being oppressed because the official documents swapped one gender neutral term for another (or rather swapping a colloquial term for a technical term in this case) and that isn't making much sense to me.

I don't think anyone's argued anything of the sort. This seems like an utter strawman.
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New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:41 pm

Galloism wrote:
Vassenor wrote:Besides, if we're arguing that "manhole" is not a gendered term, you're arguing that men are being oppressed because the official documents swapped one gender neutral term for another (or rather swapping a colloquial term for a technical term in this case) and that isn't making much sense to me.

I don't think anyone's argued anything of the sort. This seems like an utter strawman.


Hmmm? Well? I took your comment of manhole being gender neutral. It isn't really.

The name probably wasn't a slam against women and yet MRA/Incels/Whatever seem to think changing the name is a slam against men.

Call it an access point. Problem solved.
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Postby Holy Tedalonia » Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:46 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
Galloism wrote:I don't think anyone's argued anything of the sort. This seems like an utter strawman.


Hmmm? Well? I took your comment of manhole being gender neutral. It isn't really.

The name probably wasn't a slam against women and yet MRA/Incels/Whatever seem to think changing the name is a slam against men.

Call it an access point. Problem solved.

I've always considered it a perception thing. When I think mankind I think it is inherently gender neutral, given the it includes both be it man or woman.
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