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Berkley to cease using gendered language like "manhole"

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Should other cities remove gendered words from their vocabulary too?

Of course. 'Manhole' is an inherently offensive term.
34
14%
No. I like my gendered words the way they are.
80
33%
Quarantine Berkley.
130
53%
 
Total votes : 244

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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:30 pm

Galloism wrote:
Kowani wrote:Okay. It’s relatively safe to assume that the average style of speaking has changed somewhat since then.

I'm not positive that's true, after all, if one were to consult the dictionary, you'll see the person definition, with examples, as the second definition:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/man

Definition of man (Entry 1 of 4)
1a(1) : an individual human
especially : an adult male human
(2) : a man belonging to a particular category (as by birth, residence, membership, or occupation) —usually used in combination
councilman
(3) : HUSBAND
I now pronounce you man and wife.
(4) : LOVER
He was her man.
b : the human race : HUMANKIND
the history of man
c : a bipedal primate mammal (Homo sapiens) that is anatomically related to the great apes but distinguished especially by notable development of the brain with a resultant capacity for articulate (see ARTICULATE entry 1 sense 1a) speech and abstract reasoning, and is the sole living representative of the hominid family
broadly : any living or extinct hominid
d(1) : one possessing in high degree the qualities considered distinctive of manhood (such as courage, strength, and vigor)
(2) obsolete : the quality or state of being manly : MANLINESS
e : FELLOW, CHAP —used as mode of familiar address
f —used interjectionally to express intensity of feeling
man, what a game
2a : INDIVIDUAL, PERSON
a man could get killed there
b : the individual who can fulfill or who has been chosen to fulfill one's requirements
she's your man
3a : a feudal tenant : VASSAL
b : an adult male servant
c men plural : the working force as distinguished from the employer and usually the management
The men have been on strike for several weeks.
4a : one of the distinctive objects moved by each player in various board games
b : one of the players on a team
nine men on each side
5 : an alumnus of or student at a college or university
a Bowdoin man
6 Christian Science : the compound idea of infinite Spirit : the spiritual image and likeness of God : the full representation of Mind
7 often capitalized : POLICE
when I heard the siren, I knew it was the Man
— Amer. Speech
8 often capitalized : the white establishment : white society
We should control anything that affects black people. Why should The Man control us?
— Jimmy Denham
9 : one extremely fond of or devoted to something specified
strictly a vanilla ice cream man
as one man
: with the agreement and consent of all : UNANIMOUSLY
The council voted as one man.
one's own man
: free from interference or control
He left home and moved to the city to become his own man.
to a man
: without exception
His friends, to a man, supported him.


https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/man

1An adult human male.

‘a small man with mischievous eyes’
‘the men's semi-finals’
More example sentencesSynonyms
1.1A male member of a workforce, team, etc.
‘over 700 men were made redundant’
More example sentencesSynonyms
1.2menOrdinary members of the armed forces as distinct from the officers.
‘he had a platoon of forty men to prepare for battle’
More example sentencesSynonyms
1.3A husband or lover.
‘the two of them lived for a time as man and wife’
More example sentencesSynonyms
1.4with modifier A male person associated with a particular place, activity, or occupation.
‘a Cambridge man’
‘I'm a solid Labour man’
More example sentences
1.5A person with the qualities associated with males, such as bravery, spirit, or toughness.
‘she was more of a man than any of them’
More example sentences
1.6A male pursued or sought by another, especially in connection with a crime.
‘Inspector Bull was sure they would find their man’
More example sentences
1.7dated A manservant or valet.
‘get me a cocktail, my man’
Synonyms
1.8historical A vassal.
‘By taking service in William's army he had become the man of the Duke of the Normans.’
2A human being of either sex; a person.

‘God cares for all men’
More example sentencesSynonyms
2.1in singular Human beings in general; the human race.
‘places untouched by the ravages of man’
More example sentencesSynonyms
2.2in singular An individual; one.
‘a man could buy a lot with eighteen million dotillars’
More example sentences
2.3in singular, with adjective or noun modifier A type of prehistoric human named after the place where the remains were found.
‘Cro-Magnon man’
More example sentences
3the Maninformal A group or person in a position of authority over others, such as a corporate employer or the police.

‘they've mastered their emotive grunge-pop without haggling with the Man’
More example sentences
3.1informal White people collectively regarded as the controlling group in society.
‘he urged that black college athletes boycott the Man's Rose Bowl’
More example sentences
4A figure or token used in playing a board game.

‘Mr Kravchuk, who prides himself on his chess-playing prowess, did not give up his man easily.’


And, even if it were, I'm not sure if you knew this, but 1968 is after 1769, so even if it's not a way of speaking now, it certainly was a way of speaking in the late 1700s, when the term was invented.

Point of order-Dictionaries evolve slower than actual language does.
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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:36 pm

Kowani wrote:Point of order-Dictionaries evolve slower than actual language does.

And language is frustratingly painfully slow to evolve, even moreso now because of our longer lifespans.

However, you'll note many of the expressions noted in the dictionary are used today and are used in a gender neutral fashion. To zero in on those:

a man could get killed there

she's your man

The men have been on strike for several weeks.

nine men on each side

a Bowdoin man

when I heard the siren, I knew it was the Man

We should control anything that affects black people. Why should The Man control us?


Presuming it's the same guy, Jimmy Denham, author of the last quote, is still a professor in southern florida.

From the other dictionary:

‘places untouched by the ravages of man’

‘a man could buy a lot with eighteen million dollars’

‘Cro-Magnon man’


Clearly, it's not only male humans who have the ability to buy a lot of things with 18 million dollars, nor is it only male humans that ravage our environment.


Nor does your hypothetical exception regarding asserted extremely recent usage change etymology of manhole, a term invented in 1769, as far as we can tell.
Last edited by Galloism on Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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The Republic of Fore
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Postby The Republic of Fore » Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:39 pm

Meh, it is kind of funny that they would waste their time on something so trivial. But, on the other end life will go on regardless of what Berkeley calls fishermen.

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The South Falls
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Postby The South Falls » Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:41 pm

The Republic of Fore wrote:Meh, it is kind of funny that they would waste their time on something so trivial. But, on the other end life will go on regardless of what Berkeley calls fishermen.

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Postby Shofercia » Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:45 pm

Vassenor wrote:Are we still trying to spin this as evil feminists oppressing men by saying it's bad to say manhole?


It's fascinating to see the effort that you're devoting to supporting this change, while trying to tell the rest of that it's no big deal.
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Recidivism
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Postby Recidivism » Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:11 pm

Shofercia wrote:If affirmative action is based primarily on race, then yes, it is racism, but stated in a friendlier way. Why didn't the Confederates try that? "Slavery's not racism, it's just affirmative action to enhance the rights of rich white people!"


First of all, the question at hand was not whether affirmative action is racist. The question at hand was whether or not affirmative action constitutes a racial quota. You are answering a question that nobody asked.

Secondly, you are answering that question in an incredibly ridiculous way. Affirmative action programs lend no support to slavery. One seeks to resolve racial inequities, the other seeks to perpetuate them. That is the obvious difference.

Not all consideration of race is racism. Racism is perpetuating racial inequities, not trying to resolve them. That's just your typical "I don't see color" bullshit mentality that actually perpetuates racism by ignoring it.

Whether or not affirmative action actually solves these inequities is another question, but to say that there is no difference between current affirmative action programs and chattel slavery is fucking ridiculous.

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Recidivism
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Postby Recidivism » Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:12 pm

Shofercia wrote:
Vassenor wrote:Are we still trying to spin this as evil feminists oppressing men by saying it's bad to say manhole?


It's fascinating to see the effort that you're devoting to supporting this change, while trying to tell the rest of that it's no big deal.


Probably because this is a forum and the purpose is to post on it.

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Postby Recidivism » Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:16 pm

Shofercia wrote:
And no college has challenged it ever since... https://www.thecollegefix.com/clemson-u ... em-fields/

Clemson University’s College of Engineering, Computing and Applied Sciences has rolled out quota goals for faculty hiring and student enrollment rates in an effort to increase racial diversity and assist other “underrepresented” groups, according to a draft proposal obtained by The College Fix.


https://cei.org/blog/quotas-limiting-ma ... ar-science

Quotas limiting the number of male students in science may be imposed by the Education Department in 2013. The White House has promised that "new guidelines will also be issued to grant-receiving universities and colleges" spelling out "Title IX rules in the science, technology, engineering and math fields." These guidelines will likely echo existing Title IX guidelines that restrict men's percentage of intercollegiate athletes to their percentage in overall student bodies, thus reducing the overall number of intercollegiate athletes.


That took me all of two minutes to find. Imagine what I can find in ten minutes. Drop that bullshit line of argument right now. Gracias, amigo.


1: Please tell me what the hell gender quotas have to do with racial quotas.
2: Those quotas are goals, not actual mandates. It's unconstitutional to mandate racial quotas. If Clemson had mandated racial quotas, they would have had the shit sued out of them by now.
3: It's not a bullshit argument. It was a fucking supreme court ruling, Bakke vs UC.
4: So please drop your bullshit argument, hombre.

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Recidivism
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Postby Recidivism » Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:19 pm

Shofercia wrote:
And no college has challenged it ever since... https://www.thecollegefix.com/clemson-u ... em-fields/


By the way, my claim was that racial quotas in college admissions are unconstitutional. Your claim is that Clemson had racial quotas for hiring faculty members. This has nothing to do with college admissions, just like gender quotas have nothing to do with racial quotas either. All of your information was completely irrelevant to my claims. Please learn how to read.

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Pacomia
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Postby Pacomia » Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:19 pm

How did this become about affirmative action?

Anyway, my opinion on affirmative action is that it's an inefficient and bad system that pointlessly advances certain types of people for little reason while making it harder for other types to get to college just because there's too many of them in college already or something. It undermines meritocracy, and is just generally dumb.

Also, it's not like it's catering to minorities- at least, not all minorities. Affirmative action makes it actually harder for Asians to get into college. They now have a low acceptance rate than white students at affirmative action schools.
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Shofercia
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Postby Shofercia » Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:29 pm

Recidivism wrote:
Shofercia wrote:If affirmative action is based primarily on race, then yes, it is racism, but stated in a friendlier way. Why didn't the Confederates try that? "Slavery's not racism, it's just affirmative action to enhance the rights of rich white people!"


First of all, the question at hand was not whether affirmative action is racist. The question at hand was whether or not affirmative action constitutes a racial quota. You are answering a question that nobody asked.


There was no question. You see, Recidivism, questions are usually followed by question marks. Kekistan was taking issue with a person being promoted for his or her skin color, rather than their meritocratic ability. You opted to respond to that. Hence the conversation. It goes beyond a single question.


Recidivism wrote:Secondly, you are answering that question in an incredibly ridiculous way. Affirmative action programs lend no support to slavery. One seeks to resolve racial inequities, the other seeks to perpetuate them. That is the obvious difference.


I didn't say that affirmative action supports slavery. I stated that affirmative action based primarily on race/ethnicity, rather than income inequality, or meritocracy, sounds as racist as a slave owner pretending that slavery isn't about race. If race is a primary factor, then it is about race. It also doesn't really resolve racial inequality as there is going to be inherent discrimination against those who rode on the coattails of affirmative action. You're simply creating more discrimination with it.


Recidivism wrote:Not all consideration of race is racism. Racism is perpetuating racial inequities, not trying to resolve them. That's just your typical "I don't see color" bullshit mentality that actually perpetuates racism by ignoring it.


I never said that all consideration of race is racism. I said that if you discriminate against White and Asian students on college admissions, primarily because of their race, then that is racism. But to you, Recidivism, it clearly isn't.


Recidivism wrote:Whether or not affirmative action actually solves these inequities is another question, but to say that there is no difference between current affirmative action programs and chattel slavery is fucking ridiculous.


I didn't say that there was no difference; I said that both used race as a primary factor, and both were racist programs. If A kills B because B solely because B is Asian, that's racism. If A cuts B off on the freeway, solely because B is Asian, that's also racism. But no one sane is going to pretend that the two are equivalent.
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Recidivism
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Postby Recidivism » Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:39 pm

Shofercia wrote:There was no question. You see, Recidivism, questions are usually followed by question marks. Kekistan was taking issue with a person being promoted for his or her skin color, rather than their meritocratic ability. You opted to respond to that. Hence the conversation. It goes beyond a single question.


Sometimes questions are implicit. The "question" in my post (before you butted in with irrelevant information) was whether or not some future liberal movement would mandate racial quotas, as Kekistan claimed (and as I showed to be absurd).

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Postby Recidivism » Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:41 pm

Shoferica, please let this be a lesson about butting into other people's conversations; you may not know what they were actually talking about.

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Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:41 pm

The Republic of Fore wrote:Meh, it is kind of funny that they would waste their time on something so trivial. But, on the other end life will go on regardless of what Berkeley calls fishermen.

Fisherpeople.
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Recidivism
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Postby Recidivism » Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:42 pm

In Regents of University of California v. Bakke (1978), the Supreme Court ruled that a university's use of racial "quotas" in its admissions process was unconstitutional, but a school's use of "affirmative action" to accept more minority applicants was constitutional in some circumstances


What were you saying about my bullshit argument, Shofercia?

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Shofercia
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Postby Shofercia » Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:45 pm

Recidivism wrote:
Shofercia wrote:
It's fascinating to see the effort that you're devoting to supporting this change, while trying to tell the rest of that it's no big deal.


Probably because this is a forum and the purpose is to post on it.


I thought the purpose was to make some sort of sense when you're posting here, but apparently to you, Recidivism, the purpose is simply to post on it.


Recidivism wrote:
Shofercia wrote:
And no college has challenged it ever since... https://www.thecollegefix.com/clemson-u ... em-fields/



https://cei.org/blog/quotas-limiting-ma ... ar-science



That took me all of two minutes to find. Imagine what I can find in ten minutes. Drop that bullshit line of argument right now. Gracias, amigo.


1: Please tell me what the hell gender quotas have to do with racial quotas.
2: Those quotas are goals, not actual mandates. It's unconstitutional to mandate racial quotas. If Clemson had mandated racial quotas, they would have had the shit sued out of them by now.
3: It's not a bullshit argument. It was a fucking supreme court ruling, Bakke vs UC.
4: So please drop your bullshit argument, hombre.


1. Creating quotas based on something that a person cannot change shouldn't be done.
2. So instead of pretending that they're mandates, Clemson is pretending that they're goals
3. Your claim, that you deviously omitted from the quote: "No, they won't, since the use of racial quotas in college admissions was ruled unconstitutional in 1978."

If Clemson is using racial quotas as mandates, excuse me, "goals" - then the use of racial quotas in college admissions remains; yes, it was unconstitutional, thank Bakke for that.

4. Arguing that racial discrimination is racist is now bullshit? Apparently that's bullshit to you.


Recidivism wrote:
Shofercia wrote:
And no college has challenged it ever since... https://www.thecollegefix.com/clemson-u ... em-fields/


By the way, my claim was that racial quotas in college admissions are unconstitutional. Your claim is that Clemson had racial quotas for hiring faculty members. This has nothing to do with college admissions, just like gender quotas have nothing to do with racial quotas either. All of your information was completely irrelevant to my claims. Please learn how to read.


Learning how to read, perhaps that's something you should do, Recidivism?

Clemson University’s College of Engineering, Computing and Applied Sciences has rolled out quota goals for faculty hiring and student enrollment rates


Since that's a tad too complex for you, let me make it simpler:

Clemson University’s College of Engineering, Computing and Applied Sciences has rolled out quota goals for... student enrollment rates


Do I have to explain to you, Recidivism, how the word "and" works in English grammar? And yes, colleges do unconstitutional things. Like Harvard, where, after it was sued by the Asian-American community for being racist, the rates of Asians admitted magically went up, but I'm sure that's just a coincidence to Recidivism: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-amer ... on-n990051

The university said 25.4 percent of its admitted class of 1,950 students is Asian American, up from 22.7 percent the year before. The new figure is the highest proportion of Asian American students that the university has published in the last decade. Data released as part of a lawsuit against Harvard suggest that the 25.4 percent figure is the highest since at least 1980.


Reminds me of something: "without admitting guilt, our party will pay billions of dollars to the Federal Government out of the goodness of our hearts, and this lawsuit that's being closed as a result is just a pure coincidence!"

"Our rate of Asian admissions increased from 22.7% to 25.4%, by nearly 12%, at the same time that we're being sued for discriminating against Asians, but this is totally a coincidence!"

Hey Recidivism, there's a bridge on sale in Brooklyn, want it?
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Postby Major-Tom » Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:48 pm

Given the state of the country right now, I feel like this is the wrong thing to be up in arms over.

Like, oh boy, Berkeley, a city not known for spectacular self-awareness, is literally being Berkeley! The unfettered horror of it all!
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Shofercia
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Postby Shofercia » Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:49 pm

Recidivism wrote:
Shofercia wrote:There was no question. You see, Recidivism, questions are usually followed by question marks. Kekistan was taking issue with a person being promoted for his or her skin color, rather than their meritocratic ability. You opted to respond to that. Hence the conversation. It goes beyond a single question.


Sometimes questions are implicit. The "question" in my post (before you butted in with irrelevant information) was whether or not some future liberal movement would mandate racial quotas, as Kekistan claimed (and as I showed to be absurd).


You might've done that in your imagination. In reality, that clearly didn't happen, since I pointed out Clemson is setting racial quotas as "goals" rather than mandates, meaning that race is still playing a factor. I'm not sure if you're aware of it, Recidivism, but just because something is illegal, doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. Thinking otherwise is absurd.


Recidivism wrote:Shoferica, please let this be a lesson about butting into other people's conversations; you may not know what they were actually talking about.


Except I do, because I read. You, on the other hand, accused me of failing to read, while managing to fail to grasp an extremely basic point, in the very same post. This brought much hilarity to NSG, thanks for that.


Recidivism wrote:
In Regents of University of California v. Bakke (1978), the Supreme Court ruled that a university's use of racial "quotas" in its admissions process was unconstitutional, but a school's use of "affirmative action" to accept more minority applicants was constitutional in some circumstances


What were you saying about my bullshit argument, Shofercia?


That it was bullshit. You got that part. Here's the part you missed: just because something is illegal, doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. Thinking otherwise is absurd. For instance: illegal immigration is illegal. And yet, it happens. When booze was banned, did people stop drinking it? To some, affirmative action is like booze - they desperately need it to justify their own self-imposed prejudices, so they'll still try it, even if SCOTUS said "nope" because that's just who they are.
Last edited by Shofercia on Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Recidivism
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Postby Recidivism » Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:51 pm

If colleges are truly using unconstitutional racial quotas, then all you have to do is sue the shit out of them.

Logging off for now.

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Shofercia
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Postby Shofercia » Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:56 pm

Recidivism wrote:If colleges are truly using unconstitutional racial quotas, then all you have to do is sue the shit out of them.

Logging off for now.


Yeah, the Asian-American community's doing that with Harvard. Lawsuit's still buffering. "Just sue them" is not an easy task against a billion dollar institution. That said, Asian American admissions rose by nearly 12% during the lawsuit. What a coincidence!
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Recidivism
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Posts: 166
Founded: Jul 14, 2019
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Recidivism » Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:57 pm

Also, where did I say that unconstitutional racial quotas never happen? All I ever said was that anybody who did so would get sued. Then again, you are notoriously disingenuous and frequently outright fabricate information, so this is exactly what I would expect from you.

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Recidivism
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 166
Founded: Jul 14, 2019
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Recidivism » Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:58 pm

Shofercia wrote:
Recidivism wrote:If colleges are truly using unconstitutional racial quotas, then all you have to do is sue the shit out of them.

Logging off for now.


Yeah, the Asian-American community's doing that with Harvard. Lawsuit's still buffering. "Just sue them" is not an easy task against a billion dollar institution. That said, Asian American admissions rose by nearly 12% during the lawsuit. What a coincidence!


Ok, well that’s the only legal mechanism available. Also, the plaintiffs in this lawsuit have some powerful people on their side.
Last edited by Recidivism on Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Shofercia
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Posts: 28974
Founded: Feb 22, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Shofercia » Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:07 pm

Recidivism wrote:Also, where did I say that unconstitutional racial quotas never happen? All I ever said was that anybody who did so would get sued. Then again, you are notoriously disingenuous and frequently outright fabricate information, so this is exactly what I would expect from you.


Let's review the conversation, as it happened, rather than what happened in your imagination:

Kekistan: Libs will try to "equalize" STEM by setting up strict racial quotas...

Recidivism: No, they won't...


Do you understand what the words "no they won't" mean in that context? Because in that specific context, they mean that Libs won't try to equalize STEM with racial quotes. Kekistan said that Libs will try to attempt to impose racial quotas on STEM, and you said that they won't.

Now you're asking me where you said that unconstitutional racial quotas never happen but nether Kekistan nor I were talking about the racial quotas being unconstitutional. That's simply something that you added in an attempt to move the goal posts, while accusing a fellow poster of being "notoriously disingenuous" - do you always project this heavily Recidivism?
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The Greater Ohio Valley
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Founded: Jan 19, 2013
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Greater Ohio Valley » Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:08 pm

Meh, I don't see any issues with this.
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Pacomia
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Founded: May 23, 2019
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Pacomia » Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:09 pm

jg
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