Heathenry/Norse Polytheism Discussion thread.

[Nakena]

The only truly viable pagans are those that take the overarching ideas of giant groups of religions, for the norse and greeks, the overarching themes in Indo-European religions like reincarnation, certain types of gods, veneration of ancestors, veneration of war, horse and cow holy stuff, ancestral twins, that sort of stuff. Norse Paganism, Greek Paganism, are just evolutions of the same religion both characterized by isolation and influence from pre-IE groups living in the area or other peoples who interacted with them. The role pantheons of pagan peoples plays is for an origin narrative.

Fair enough. That makes a lot more sense now and I see where you are coming from.

However paganism and polytheism is a broad field and extends beyond the indo-european paganic traditions you were referencing too.

True as that may be, it's irrelevant to what you stated in your first post. "Folkish Paganism" was literally something a bunch of racist antisemites came up with in late 19th century to oppose muh Jewish Christianity and has no basis in actual, recorded history.

Thats the problem that comes with borrowing memes from bad sauce.

[Ism]

Norse paganism, neo-paganism in general really, is a perfectly acceptable faith to adhere to, and certainly paganism/neo-paganism are very interesting to study. Just don’t row up to my house in a longboat and steal my stuff and we’re good.

[Hatterleigh]

This has nothing to do with race as a science, it's a spiritual thing. Unlike christianity, you don't go to eternal hell for not being part of the pagan cults.

True as that may be, it's irrelevant to what you stated in your first post. "Folkish Paganism" was literally something a bunch of racist antisemites came up with in late 19th century to oppose muh Jewish Christianity and has no basis in actual, recorded history.

In the rigvedas it says shudras weren't allowed to partake in holy rites, and in norse mythology hel did say she had to start checking the races of men who died for so many died, which implies ethnicity played a role in who was "in" with the gods

[Hatterleigh]

The only truly viable pagans are those that take the overarching ideas of giant groups of religions, for the norse and greeks, the overarching themes in Indo-European religions like reincarnation, certain types of gods, veneration of ancestors, veneration of war, horse and cow holy stuff, ancestral twins, that sort of stuff. Norse Paganism, Greek Paganism, are just evolutions of the same religion both characterized by isolation and influence from pre-IE groups living in the area or other peoples who interacted with them. The role pantheons of pagan peoples plays is for an origin narrative.

Fair enough. That makes a lot more sense now and I see where you are coming from.

However paganism and polytheism is a broad field and extends beyond the indo-european paganic traditions you were referening too.

True as that may be, it's irrelevant to what you stated in your first post. "Folkish Paganism" was literally something a bunch of racist antisemites came up with in late 19th century to oppose muh Jewish Christianity and has no basis in actual, recorded history.

Thats the problem that comes with borrowing memes from bad sauce.

If ur just a general polytheist, yeah its universalist

[Bienenhalde]

True as that may be, it's irrelevant to what you stated in your first post. "Folkish Paganism" was literally something a bunch of racist antisemites came up with in late 19th century to oppose muh Jewish Christianity and has no basis in actual, recorded history.

In the rigvedas it says shudras weren't allowed to partake in holy rites

What about the Dravidian Brahman, though?

[North German Realm]

True as that may be, it's irrelevant to what you stated in your first post. "Folkish Paganism" was literally something a bunch of racist antisemites came up with in late 19th century to oppose muh Jewish Christianity and has no basis in actual, recorded history.

In the rigvedas it says shudras weren't allowed to partake in holy rites

How does an Indian caste have any relevance to a discussion about "folkish paganism" (largely a term used to refer to a specific subgroup in American Norse Pagan community)

[Hatterleigh]

In the rigvedas it says shudras weren't allowed to partake in holy rites

How does an Indian caste have any relevance to a discussion about "folkish paganism" (largely a term used to refer to a specific subgroup in American Norse Pagan community)

The Shudras of indo-aryan society aren't the same of those of hindu society, they were considered a people who belonged to a particular race. And because the vedic religion is considered to be one of the earliest indo european religions and most related to the proto indo european religion, it is important for anyone who believes in I.E. paganism. Not important if u are solely a viking worshipper, but I already said I think that's proposterous

[Nakena]

Fair enough. That makes a lot more sense now and I see where you are coming from.

However paganism and polytheism is a broad field and extends beyond the indo-european paganic traditions you were referening too.



Thats the problem that comes with borrowing memes from bad sauce.

If ur just a general polytheist, yeah its universalist

I do not specifically adhere to indo-european pagan traditions, despite I do have my sympathies for them and certainly prefer them over abrahamite stuff.

[Hatterleigh]

In the rigvedas it says shudras weren't allowed to partake in holy rites

What about the Dravidian Brahman, though?

This is in reference to the Indo-Aryan Vedic peoples, pre-hinduism and before hinduism had spread throughout south and southeast asia.

[Threlizdun]

The only truly viable pagans are those that take the overarching ideas of giant groups of religions, for the norse and greeks, the overarching themes in Indo-European religions like reincarnation, certain types of gods, veneration of ancestors, veneration of war, horse and cow holy stuff, ancestral twins, that sort of stuff. Norse Paganism, Greek Paganism, are just evolutions of the same religion both characterized by isolation and influence from pre-IE groups living in the area or other peoples who interacted with them. The role pantheons of pagan peoples plays is for an origin narrative.

Except the norse pantheon is an amalgamation of various tribal deities from different regions and ethnic groups, those we would come to typify as the norse peoples were often incredibly migratory and often mixed with the cultures they encountered, and the shift in cultural practices is rather clearly represented in the mythology itself.

The rise to prominence of the Æsir over the Vanir (with the exception of Freyja/Frigg) has been often accredited by modern historians to the transition from a primarily agrarian lifestyle to further veneration of the warrior and raising traditions as the agricultural and nature deities developed a generally lesser position to gods of war, commerce, and nobility. The attestations of divergent attributes to a single deity to the point of actually becoming split in two is seen with Freyja/Frigg, who is by all accounts different aspects of the same goddess. This was furthered during the shifting roles of women in the Christianization of Northern Europe. Attributes of Freyja, such as her practice of Seiðr was additionally shifted to Odin as the goddess was increasingly left out of myths and legends. This transference of attributes to Odin was immensely common, as he came to subsumed the roles of many different gods of wisdom, war, justice, battlefield rage, magic, rightful rule, etc., including his adoption of many of the aspects previously held by Tyr.

The history of the Norse pantheon, like with most religions, is one which is defined by the transference and blending of ideas across numerous cultures. A folkish interpretation is frankly ahistorical, and the product of a racist revision of history.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

Why believe in such beings? What proof is there that any type of god or gods exist?

[North German Realm]

Why believe in such beings? What proof is there that any type of god or gods exist?

There isn't, obviously. The argument is tried and old, and much as I like using it against Muslims and Christians and watch them crash and burn, the existence -or lackthereof- of deities (in general) is unprovable from a logical basis.

[Lillorainen]

Except the norse pantheon is an amalgamation of various tribal deities from different regions and ethnic groups, those we would come to typify as the norse peoples were often incredibly migratory and often mixed with the cultures they encountered, and the shift in cultural practices is rather clearly represented in the mythology itself.

The rise to prominence of the Æsir over the Vanir (with the exception of Freyja/Frigg) has been often accredited by modern historians to the transition from a primarily agrarian lifestyle to further veneration of the warrior and raising traditions as the agricultural and nature deities developed a generally lesser position to gods of war, commerce, and nobility. The attestations of divergent attributes to a single deity to the point of actually becoming split in two is seen with Freyja/Frigg, who is by all accounts different aspects of the same goddess. This was furthered during the shifting roles of women in the Christianization of Northern Europe. Attributes of Freyja, such as her practice of Seiðr was additionally shifted to Odin as the goddess was increasingly left out of myths and legends. This transference of attributes to Odin was immensely common, as he came to subsumed the roles of many different gods of wisdom, war, justice, battlefield rage, magic, rightful rule, etc., including his adoption of many of the aspects previously held by Tyr.

The history of the Norse pantheon, like with most religions, is one which is defined by the transference and blending of ideas across numerous cultures. A folkish interpretation is frankly ahistorical, and the product of a racist revision of history.

Indeed, many things have changed throughout the history of the Norse pantheon, the loss of Tyr's previous rule as a sort of Godfather to Odin being a quite prominent example. Or the attributes of Freyja, which you've already mentioned. Odin (or Wodan, as he was called in Middle and Southern Germany) being a very complex character is the result of these regional variations, which changed more and more, the more the differeent tribes migrated and merged into each other (Saxons, Franks). To my knowledge, it is assumed, yet not proven (due to the lack of reliable sources), that the Cult of Wodan spread from the Lower Rhinelands, and with said merge of the various tribes, the imagination of him being the Godfather (and not Tyr) spread quite quickly. Then again, since even scientists disagree, don't quote me on that, for sources like the Edda were written in the Middle Ages, so Snorri Sturluson can hardly be quoted on changes in an entirely different region than his home country (Iceland) centuries before his birth, either.

Though, as for the relations of Greek and Norse Paganism - granted, things change (see above) a lot in single regions, of course, but due to the Indo-European root of both Germans and Greeks, as well as the common origin of the languages spoken, and last but not least, the similarities in attributions between both pantheons as well as earlier Indian ones, I do think it's prudent to assume, that there is quite a common origin of all Indo-European polytheisms - even though they're sometimes hard to almost impossible to recognize.

[Nakena]

Why believe in such beings? What proof is there that any type of god or gods exist?

There isn't, obviously. The argument is tried and old, and much as I like using it against Muslims and Christians and watch them crash and burn, the existence -or lackthereof- of deities (in general) is unprovable from a logical basis.

Its unproveable with current science or observation methods. That may change one day however, probably not any time soon though. I have my own takes and experiences regarding the whole matter.

[The Emerald Legion]

True as that may be, it's irrelevant to what you stated in your first post. "Folkish Paganism" was literally something a bunch of racist antisemites came up with in late 19th century to oppose muh Jewish Christianity and has no basis in actual, recorded history.

In the rigvedas it says shudras weren't allowed to partake in holy rites, and in norse mythology hel did say she had to start checking the races of men who died for so many died, which implies ethnicity played a role in who was "in" with the gods

It... doesn't? Also, while there's a connection there, I would consider trying to import Hindu concepts as something of a poor decision. In the end, the primary evidence comes from the fact that the Norse themselves didn't particularly seem to care about race. Given their descendants are full of all kinds of foreign genetics.

If they had a thought that racial impurity would cut them off from the gods, they would likely have more of a concern about who they slept with. Also, based on the Norse myths, ALL humans came from the two Odin and his brothers made.

[Nakena]

In the rigvedas it says shudras weren't allowed to partake in holy rites, and in norse mythology hel did say she had to start checking the races of men who died for so many died, which implies ethnicity played a role in who was "in" with the gods

It... doesn't? Also, while there's a connection there, I would consider trying to import Hindu concepts as something of a poor decision. In the end, the primary evidence comes from the fact that the Norse themselves didn't particularly seem to care about race. Given their descendants are full of all kinds of foreign genetics.

If they had a thought that racial impurity would cut them off from the gods, they would likely have more of a concern about who they slept with. Also, based on the Norse myths, ALL humans came from the two Odin and his brothers made.

The caste system in india has a strong racial component and its supposed to prevent race mixing. The highest castes are supposedly the distant descendants of aryan conquerors.

It's pretty fucked up.

[First American Empire]

Norse paganism, neo-paganism in general really, is a perfectly acceptable faith to adhere to, and certainly paganism/neo-paganism are very interesting to study. Just don’t row up to my house in a longboat and steal my stuff and we’re good.

Point taken. I'll row up to your house in a trireme instead when I steal your stuff.

/s

[Kowani]

Norse paganism, neo-paganism in general really, is a perfectly acceptable faith to adhere to, and certainly paganism/neo-paganism are very interesting to study. Just don’t row up to my house in a longboat and steal my stuff and we’re good.

Point taken. I'll row up to your house in a trireme instead when I steal your stuff.

/s

Can you really afford one, with Greece’s economy?

[Lillorainen]

Point taken. I'll row up to your house in a trireme instead when I steal your stuff.

/s

Can you really afford one, with Greece’s economy?

They could easily come to Germany and kindly ask for a credit.

[Nakena]

Can you really afford one, with Greece’s economy?

They could easily come to Germany and kindly ask for a credit.

They have to pass the Bosporus and move up the danube river in their triremes. Quite an adventure.

[Ism]

Norse paganism, neo-paganism in general really, is a perfectly acceptable faith to adhere to, and certainly paganism/neo-paganism are very interesting to study. Just don’t row up to my house in a longboat and steal my stuff and we’re good.

Point taken. I'll row up to your house in a trireme instead when I steal your stuff.

/s

Will no one rid me of this turbulent Hellene?

[Kowani]

Point taken. I'll row up to your house in a trireme instead when I steal your stuff.

/s

Will no one rid me of this turbulent Hellene?

Economics willl.

[Ism]

Will no one rid me of this turbulent Hellene?

Economics willl.

Well then, time to start a new pagan faith dedicated to Adam the Worldsmith, who governs the world with his invisible hand.

[Hanafuridake]

The caste system in india has a strong racial component and its supposed to prevent race mixing. The highest castes are supposedly the distant descendants of aryan conquerors.

It's pretty fucked up.

That's the Aryan Invasion Theory, a European racist pseudo-science rather than a real traditional belief in Hindu society. The Vedas claimed that the Brahmins were born from Brahma's mouth, the Kshatriya from his arms, the Vaishya from his thighs, and the Shudra from his calves. That was just one understanding of the caste system, both Buddhism and Jainism had their own interpretations and creation myths which differed.

[Highever]

Nonpagan here with a question. Are there any pagan houses of worship yall go to, or do you just gather in someone's house somewhere?

I believe there are Romuva temples in Lithuania but beyond that I am not sure.