America Cuts Turkey From The NATO F-35 Deal

[-Ocelot-]

good on US, now we need to find a new buyer.

Maybe Korea wants a few.

http://www.ekathimerini.com/239304/arti ... 5-purchase

More specifically, Vice Admiral Mathias Winter, head of the Pentagon’s F-35 office, told Congress on Thursday that sales of the jets could be expanded to include five new countries – Singapore, Spain, Romania, Greece and Poland.

Meanwhile, Turkey is buddying up with the Russians

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/07/18/se ... hter-jets/

[Fartsniffage]

Why didn't the US just offer them Patriot?

[Novus America]

Why didn't the US just offer them Patriot?

We did. (Although the new Patriot will probably use a joint Israeli US missile).
But supposedly Obama said no, at least according to Trump and Turkey.

But the real thing is the coup. The S-400s are to be stationed around Ankara.
Erdogan does not trust his own Air Force, and thinks Patriot batteries manned with the help of the US might not protect him against another coup. This is his own Imperial Guard like deal, trying to create a trusted unit of devoted supporters, separate from the NATO structure which he does not trust at all.

[The New California Republic]

Which ones?

https://news.sky.com/story/f-35-jets-chinese-owned-company-making-parts-for-top-secret-uk-us-fighters-11741889
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/06/14/chinese-owned-company-makes-parts-british-f-35-fighter-jets/

To be honest I'd be very surprised if the Chinese didn't have fairly complete technical manuals of the F-35 by now, their industrial espionage is quite adept. And as I mentioned earlier the Russians have been using various radars they have brought in to Syria to illuminate the F-35, so they likely have detailed RCS data for it by now from a variety of distances and angles. They will likely be using the VHF-band radars such as Vostok and Nebo to acquire them in a narrow box, and then using X-band radars like Grave Stone for precision tracking.

[East Ustya]

Why didn't the US just offer them Patriot?

We did. (Although the new Patriot will probably use a joint Israeli US missile).
But supposedly Obama said no, at least according to Trump and Turkey.

But the real thing is the coup. The S-400s are to be stationed around Ankara.
Erdogan does not trust his own Air Force, and thinks Patriot batteries manned with the help of the US might not protect him against another coup. This is his own Imperial Guard like deal, trying to create a trusted unit of devoted supporters, separate from the NATO structure which he does not trust at all.

Putin is making some scary inroads in Europe atm.

[Fartsniffage]

Why didn't the US just offer them Patriot?

We did. (Although the new Patriot will probably use a joint Israeli US missile).
But supposedly Obama said no, at least according to Trump and Turkey.

But the real thing is the coup. The S-400s are to be stationed around Ankara.
Erdogan does not trust his own Air Force, and thinks Patriot batteries manned with the help of the US might not protect him against another coup. This is his own Imperial Guard like deal, trying to create a trusted unit of devoted supporters, separate from the NATO structure which he does not trust at all.

Oh dear. Then the decision to kick them out of the program was right, but probably a bit fruitless. There have been Turks working on the program for years, if they want to share technical data with Russia then they can and will.

[Novus America]

I mean it did get a bunch of American and British pilots killed. Still we cannot stop our whole defense cooperation relationship over one historic mistake, as stupid as it was.

A military mistake here and there is no reason to cut allies off at any rate, but what Turkey is doing is a threat to the entire program.

Exactly.
This is quite different. And also ongoing.
The fact is that Russian intelligence agents come with the S-400s.

I will have to find the exact quote but I remember a story about the Russian’s claiming they could spot stealth fighters. But when asked about it and individual Russian said “how would we know? We have no stealth fighters to test it!”

[Nakena]

Why didn't the US just offer them Patriot?

We did. (Although the new Patriot will probably use a joint Israeli US missile).
But supposedly Obama said no, at least according to Trump and Turkey.

But the real thing is the coup. The S-400s are to be stationed around Ankara.
Erdogan does not trust his own Air Force, and thinks Patriot batteries manned with the help of the US might not protect him against another coup. This is his own Imperial Guard like deal, trying to create a trusted unit of devoted supporters, separate from the NATO structure which he does not trust at all.

That makes an awful lot of sense. The coup of 2016 is still sort of a mystery.

If it only had succeeded though...

[East Ustya]

A military mistake here and there is no reason to cut allies off at any rate, but what Turkey is doing is a threat to the entire program.

Exactly.
This is quite different. And also ongoing.
The fact is that Russian intelligence agents come with the S-400s.

I will have to find the exact quote but I remember a story about the Russian’s claiming they could spot stealth fighters. But when asked about it and individual Russian said “how would we know? We have no stealth fighters to test it!”

How about the Sukhoi Su-57?

[The New California Republic]

I will have to find the exact quote but I remember a story about the Russian’s claiming they could spot stealth fighters. But when asked about it and individual Russian said “how would we know? We have no stealth fighters to test it!”

The Russians use small drones that de facto have a low RCS to simulate the low returns of stealth aircraft when testing their radars.

[Fartsniffage]

Exactly.
This is quite different. And also ongoing.
The fact is that Russian intelligence agents come with the S-400s.

I will have to find the exact quote but I remember a story about the Russian’s claiming they could spot stealth fighters. But when asked about it and individual Russian said “how would we know? We have no stealth fighters to test it!”

How about the Sukhoi Su-57?

Essentially a first generation stealth aircraft. Much less developed than the F-22 or F-35 in that area.

[Novus America]

We did. (Although the new Patriot will probably use a joint Israeli US missile).
But supposedly Obama said no, at least according to Trump and Turkey.

But the real thing is the coup. The S-400s are to be stationed around Ankara.
Erdogan does not trust his own Air Force, and thinks Patriot batteries manned with the help of the US might not protect him against another coup. This is his own Imperial Guard like deal, trying to create a trusted unit of devoted supporters, separate from the NATO structure which he does not trust at all.

Oh dear. Then the decision to kick them out of the program was right, but probably a bit fruitless. There have been Turks working on the program for years, if they want to share technical data with Russia then they can and will.

Although the US has been playing this a bit smart, the whole program is very compartmentalized. So even if you make a few components, only the US knows the whole of how everything fits together. So making a few components does not give a away too much. It is like trying to figure out what a jigsaw puzzle shows with just a few pieces.

Unfortunately the PRC has been hitting the program hard with spying, the PRC has already collected quite a few pieces. It should be noted the PRC is now far ahead of the Russians in stealth tech, despite stating out way behind. Only stealing from the US can explain that.

[Novus America]

I will have to find the exact quote but I remember a story about the Russian’s claiming they could spot stealth fighters. But when asked about it and individual Russian said “how would we know? We have no stealth fighters to test it!”

The Russians use small drones that de facto have a low RCS to simulate the low returns of stealth aircraft when testing their radars.

Sure, but they still do not have the same value as the real thing.

[Nakena]

A military mistake here and there is no reason to cut allies off at any rate, but what Turkey is doing is a threat to the entire program.

Exactly.
This is quite different. And also ongoing.
The fact is that Russian intelligence agents come with the S-400s.

I will have to find the exact quote but I remember a story about the Russian’s claiming they could spot stealth fighters. But when asked about it and individual Russian said “how would we know? We have no stealth fighters to test it!”

Passive radar supposedly is kill for stealth.

[Fartsniffage]

Oh dear. Then the decision to kick them out of the program was right, but probably a bit fruitless. There have been Turks working on the program for years, if they want to share technical data with Russia then they can and will.

Although the US has been playing this a bit smart, the whole program is very compartmentalized. So even if you make a few components, only the US knows the whole of how everything fits together. So making a few components does not give a away too much. It is like trying to figure out what a jigsaw puzzle shows with just a few pieces.

Unfortunately the PRC has been hitting the program hard with spying, the PRC has already collected quite a few pieces. It should be noted the PRC is now far ahead of the Russians in stealth tech, despite stating out way behind. Only stealing from the US can explain that.

Turkey was meant to be a regional repair hub. I'm pretty sure they have people who know how the whole thing goes together.

[East Ustya]

How about the Sukhoi Su-57?

Essentially a first generation stealth aircraft. Much less developed than the F-22 or F-35 in that area.

How so?

Sorry but i am not a jet fighter expert.

If i was I would not be sitting here. LOL

[Novus America]

Exactly.
This is quite different. And also ongoing.
The fact is that Russian intelligence agents come with the S-400s.

I will have to find the exact quote but I remember a story about the Russian’s claiming they could spot stealth fighters. But when asked about it and individual Russian said “how would we know? We have no stealth fighters to test it!”

How about the Sukhoi Su-57?

It has a MUCH larger signature than the F-35, even on paper.
The Indians rejected it because it was not actually as stealthy as advertised.

It is more akin to the Super Hornet, a 4+ gen with limited stealth features and not a comprehensive stealth craft.

[Fartsniffage]

Exactly.
This is quite different. And also ongoing.
The fact is that Russian intelligence agents come with the S-400s.

I will have to find the exact quote but I remember a story about the Russian’s claiming they could spot stealth fighters. But when asked about it and individual Russian said “how would we know? We have no stealth fighters to test it!”

Passive radar supposedly is kill for stealth.

Passive radar?

[Novus America]

Exactly.
This is quite different. And also ongoing.
The fact is that Russian intelligence agents come with the S-400s.

I will have to find the exact quote but I remember a story about the Russian’s claiming they could spot stealth fighters. But when asked about it and individual Russian said “how would we know? We have no stealth fighters to test it!”

Passive radar supposedly is kill for stealth.

Well it only works if the enemy has their radar on. One issue with stealth is if you turn on your own radar, even if they cannot see your plane, they can see your radar.

[Fartsniffage]

Essentially a first generation stealth aircraft. Much less developed than the F-22 or F-35 in that area.

How so?

Sorry but i am not a jet fighter expert.

If i was I would not be sitting here. LOL

Its stealth features are primarily based on the frontal plane. Like a lot of 4.5th generation aircraft with stealth features.

The F-22 and F-35 are much better at all-planes stealth.

[The New California Republic]

The Russians use small drones that de facto have a low RCS to simulate the low returns of stealth aircraft when testing their radars.

Sure, but they still do not have the same value as the real thing.

You'd be surprised, it's a pretty close facsimile.

Passive radar supposedly is kill for stealth.

I assume you mean emitter locating systems? They only work if the target has its radar or other transmitting systems turned on. Stealth aircraft tend to either not emit at all or have LPI systems.

[Nakena]

Passive radar supposedly is kill for stealth.

Passive radar?

Yes. You read it here first.

I assume you mean emitter locating systems? They only work if the target has its radar or other transmitting systems turned on. Stealth aircraft tend to either not emit at all or have LPI systems.

This: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_radar

[Fartsniffage]

Passive radar?

Yes. You read it here first.

I've honestly never heard of those systems referred to as passive radar before.

[Novus America]

Essentially a first generation stealth aircraft. Much less developed than the F-22 or F-35 in that area.

How so?

Sorry but i am not a jet fighter expert.

If i was I would not be sitting here. LOL

F-35 RCS is -30 dBsm or .001 square meters.
https://www.realcleardefense.com/articl ... 12550.html

Meanwhile even according to the Russians the SU-57 is
Sukhoi's patent for the Su-57's stealth features cites an average RCS of approximately 0.1 to 1 m2
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-57

So the F-35 is 100 to 1,000 times better, even if Sukhoi is telling the truth (the Russians tend to over exaggerate the qualities of their weapons, real life performance often well short of the claimed performance).

[The New California Republic]

Passive radar?

Yes. You read it here first.

Oh you mean that. Yes I know about that, but the accuracy and reliability is questionable, and the amount of processing power needed to interpret the reflected radar energy is monstrous compared to current radars. It will only really be feasible when quantum computing is well-developed.