NationStates

Heloin wrote:

Alien Overlord wrote:The state of Tennessee has the right to celebrate whomever it wants to. I'm not telling you to shut up, you are perfectly free to disagree and argue with me if you choose to.

Yes you are.

Alien Overlord wrote:Let those in Tennessee celebrate whomever they want to celebrate and those from other states can mind their own damn business.

And i later agreed that you could criticize those living in Tennessee, so i clearly wasn't saying you were to shut up about your opinion. Just that "those from other states can mind their own damn business" of which i mean that they don't try and put pressure on the state to change its own local traditions. Criticizing and making a push for change don't necessarily go hand in hand.

I didn't observe it, but did hear about it.
We should keep the holiday but talk about the good and bad.
Georgia celebrates Jeff Davis and General Lee's birthday, as well as Confederate memorial day.
The civil war happened 200+ years ago and people are still talking about it. If we keep taking down statues and "Blow those Racists off Stone mountain!" Like some people want-https://www.ajc.com/blog/politics/abrams-calls-for-removal-confederate-faces-off-stone-mountain/MysbHRxXFN3ueVb79LdVMJ/
(She didn't win thank the Lord)

Point being I don't want my defendents to live in a world where the bravery and heroism of the southern men is forgotten.

Also where the hell did the whole there all war criminals thing come from?

Christian Confederation wrote:I didn't observe it, but did hear about it.
We should keep the holiday but talk about the good and bad.
Georgia celebrates Jeff Davis and General Lee's birthday, as well as Confederate memorial day.
The civil war happened 200+ years ago and people are still talking about it. If we keep taking down statues and "Blow those Racists off Stone mountain!" Like some people want-https://www.ajc.com/blog/politics/abrams-calls-for-removal-confederate-faces-off-stone-mountain/MysbHRxXFN3ueVb79LdVMJ/
(She didn't win thank the Lord)

Point being I don't want my defendents to live in a world where the bravery and heroism of the southern men is forgotten.

Also where the hell did the whole there all war criminals thing come from?

Any society reinterprets and distorts history for the purpose of brainwashing the masses and boosting asabiyyah.

EastKekistan wrote:

Christian Confederation wrote:I didn't observe it, but did hear about it.
We should keep the holiday but talk about the good and bad.
Georgia celebrates Jeff Davis and General Lee's birthday, as well as Confederate memorial day.
The civil war happened 200+ years ago and people are still talking about it. If we keep taking down statues and "Blow those Racists off Stone mountain!" Like some people want-https://www.ajc.com/blog/politics/abrams-calls-for-removal-confederate-faces-off-stone-mountain/MysbHRxXFN3ueVb79LdVMJ/
(She didn't win thank the Lord)

Point being I don't want my defendents to live in a world where the bravery and heroism of the southern men is forgotten.

Also where the hell did the whole there all war criminals thing come from?

Any society reinterprets and distorts history for the purpose of brainwashing the masses and boosting asabiyyah.

It's still wrong, and I'd rather not see censorship and history altering in America.

Christian Confederation wrote:

EastKekistan wrote:Any society reinterprets and distorts history for the purpose of brainwashing the masses and boosting asabiyyah.

It's still wrong, and I'd rather not see censorship and history altering in America.

Neither would I. That's why I want Forrest, and Davis, and Lee, to all remain in HISTORY BOOKS. We don't NEED them on statues to keep them in the history.

Christian Confederation wrote:

EastKekistan wrote:Any society reinterprets and distorts history for the purpose of brainwashing the masses and boosting asabiyyah.

It's still wrong, and I'd rather not see censorship and history altering in America.

Agreed. It's a shame that Americans are still defending people who did wrong by ignoring history.

Christian Confederation wrote:

EastKekistan wrote:Any society reinterprets and distorts history for the purpose of brainwashing the masses and boosting asabiyyah.

It's still wrong, and I'd rather not see censorship and history altering in America.

It's neither of those things: it's ceasing to celebrate people whose only notable achievement is killing other people in defence of slavery.

Sigh. Can we invade the South again?

Wait... that's actually an option in the poll, and it's winning!

Christian Confederation wrote:

EastKekistan wrote:Any society reinterprets and distorts history for the purpose of brainwashing the masses and boosting asabiyyah.

It's still wrong, and I'd rather not see censorship and history altering in America.

I didn't say that it is justified but what America does isn't worse than what other nations do. Any republic has to have asabiyyah-boosting brainwashing. Any empire has to have loyal-to-the-emperor brainwashing.

The world is full of people deceiving each other for personal gain.

Bashing of white Southerners is a necessary consequence of including black descendants of slaves into Americans. Either white Southerners are "real Americans" or black descendants of slaves are but not both.

Christian Confederation wrote:I didn't observe it, but did hear about it.
We should keep the holiday but talk about the good and bad.
Georgia celebrates Jeff Davis and General Lee's birthday, as well as Confederate memorial day.
The civil war happened 200+ years ago and people are still talking about it. If we keep taking down statues and "Blow those Racists off Stone mountain!" Like some people want-https://www.ajc.com/blog/politics/abrams-calls-for-removal-confederate-faces-off-stone-mountain/MysbHRxXFN3ueVb79LdVMJ/
(She didn't win thank the Lord)

Point being I don't want my defendents to live in a world where the bravery and heroism of the southern men is forgotten.

Also where the hell did the whole there all war criminals thing come from?

Bravery? Sure. I'm sure lots of Nazis were brave, too. Heroism: no. Killing people in defence of slavery does not make you a hero.

As far as the war criminals thing goes: if you burn prisoners of war alive and crucify them (and on one notable occasion, do both), it turns out people will think you're a war criminal. Funny, that.

Christian Confederation wrote:I didn't observe it, but did hear about it.
We should keep the holiday but talk about the good and bad.
Georgia celebrates Jeff Davis and General Lee's birthday, as well as Confederate memorial day.
The civil war happened 200+ years ago and people are still talking about it. If we keep taking down statues and "Blow those Racists off Stone mountain!" Like some people want-https://www.ajc.com/blog/politics/abrams-calls-for-removal-confederate-faces-off-stone-mountain/MysbHRxXFN3ueVb79LdVMJ/
(She didn't win thank the Lord)

Point being I don't want my defendents to live in a world where the bravery and heroism of the southern men is forgotten.

Bring down every Confederate statue that's in the public plaza, change every school, bridge, street, etc. named after Confederate generals, take every Confederate flag off government flagpoles.

First American Empire wrote:Sigh. Can we invade the South again?

Wait... that's actually an option in the poll, and it's winning!

I voted for that and I live in the South. Send the liberation please.

EastKekistan wrote:Bashing of white Southerners is a necessary consequence of including black descendants of slaves into Americans. Either white Southerners are "real Americans" or black descendants of slaves are but not both.

They can both be "real Americans". Many white southerners have just chosen not to, by literally supporting treason committed in the name of slavery. If they simply stopped venerating the Confederacy, everything would be fine.

Kannap wrote:

Christian Confederation wrote:I didn't observe it, but did hear about it.
We should keep the holiday but talk about the good and bad.
Georgia celebrates Jeff Davis and General Lee's birthday, as well as Confederate memorial day.
The civil war happened 200+ years ago and people are still talking about it. If we keep taking down statues and "Blow those Racists off Stone mountain!" Like some people want-https://www.ajc.com/blog/politics/abrams-calls-for-removal-confederate-faces-off-stone-mountain/MysbHRxXFN3ueVb79LdVMJ/
(She didn't win thank the Lord)

Point being I don't want my defendents to live in a world where the bravery and heroism of the southern men is forgotten.

Bring down every Confederate statue that's in the public plaza, change every school, bridge, street, etc. named after Confederate generals, take every Confederate flag off government flagpoles.

This. Also blow up Stone Mountain with a nuclear bomb. (Assuming there are no homes nearby, otherwise just blow it up with dynamite.)

Forrest repended his views later in life coming to fully support negro suffrage and championed the admission of a black kid into law school. So I believe that repentance is sincere.

I wonder if anyone else yet mentioned that.

I kind of feel in the case of forrest it is too little to late. I do not believe we should honor the man.

Kannap wrote:

Christian Confederation wrote:I didn't observe it, but did hear about it.
We should keep the holiday but talk about the good and bad.
Georgia celebrates Jeff Davis and General Lee's birthday, as well as Confederate memorial day.
The civil war happened 200+ years ago and people are still talking about it. If we keep taking down statues and "Blow those Racists off Stone mountain!" Like some people want-https://www.ajc.com/blog/politics/abrams-calls-for-removal-confederate-faces-off-stone-mountain/MysbHRxXFN3ueVb79LdVMJ/
(She didn't win thank the Lord)

Point being I don't want my defendents to live in a world where the bravery and heroism of the southern men is forgotten.

Bring down every Confederate statue that's in the public plaza, change every school, bridge, street, etc. named after Confederate generals, take every Confederate flag off government flagpoles.

So, censor anything that you find distasteful? Gotcha.

A statue, the name of a school or a public plaza, none of that actually affects anyone in a meaningful way. Especially those who don't live around these things. As previously mentioned, these people are all DEAD. So who cares if the South wants to have a statue of them? Why does it honestly matter, and more so-why do some people feel it is justifiable to try and bring change on a community that isn't their own? The only people who should decide to take down the statue or rename the school are those actually living in the community where these things are. If people were as concerned about their own communities as they were about communities three states away, then our country would be a shining beacon of wealth and prosperity.

First American Empire wrote:

EastKekistan wrote:Bashing of white Southerners is a necessary consequence of including black descendants of slaves into Americans. Either white Southerners are "real Americans" or black descendants of slaves are but not both.

They can both be "real Americans". Many white southerners have just chosen not to, by literally supporting treason committed in the name of slavery. If they simply stopped venerating the Confederacy, everything would be fine.

They can not. The harsh reality of the universe tells me that in any political struggle the winner needs to not just defend their rights but also be deliberately unreasonable. If southern whites give in on Confederate symbols more demands will come. Same for the other side. Politics inherently requires violence and illegality. Winners are people who can commit crimes (i.e. violate nominally shared norms) and get away with it.

Alien Overlord wrote:

Kannap wrote:
Bring down every Confederate statue that's in the public plaza, change every school, bridge, street, etc. named after Confederate generals, take every Confederate flag off government flagpoles.

So, censor anything that you find distasteful? Gotcha.

A statue, the name of a school or a public plaza, none of that actually affects anyone in a meaningful way. Especially those who don't live around these things. As previously mentioned, these people are all DEAD. So who cares if the South wants to have a statue of them? Why does it honestly matter, and more so-why do some people feel it is justifiable to try and bring change on a community that isn't their own? The only people who should decide to take down the statue or rename the school are those actually living in the community where these things are. If people were as concerned about their own communities as they were about communities three states away, then our country would be a shining beacon of wealth and prosperity.

Removing statues is not censorship, because statues aren't speech. It's funny how no-one ever gets mad about Lenin statues getting torn down in 1991, but as soon as you go after our favorite band of Gentleman Slavers...

Alien Overlord wrote:

Kannap wrote:
Bring down every Confederate statue that's in the public plaza, change every school, bridge, street, etc. named after Confederate generals, take every Confederate flag off government flagpoles.

So, censor anything that you find distasteful? Gotcha.

A statue, the name of a school or a public plaza, none of that actually affects anyone in a meaningful way. Especially those who don't live around these things. As previously mentioned, these people are all DEAD. So who cares if the South wants to have a statue of them? Why does it honestly matter, and more so-why do some people feel it is justifiable to try and bring change on a community that isn't their own? The only people who should decide to take down the statue or rename the school are those actually living in the community where these things are. If people were as concerned about their own communities as they were about communities three states away, then our country would be a shining beacon of wealth and prosperity.

You won't find anything in Germany named for Nazis. The people that Americans choose to honor are not much better. That's not censorship, that's refusing to support people who committed treason and defended slavery.

If it is done right it can be a good idea since he realized he was wrong and tried to fix his mistakes but we all know racists will use it as a day for a pro-CSA circle jerk while being ignorant of the fact he disavowed the Klan

"After only a year as Grand Wizard, in January 1869, faced with an ungovernable membership employing methods that seemed increasingly counterproductive, Forrest issued KKK General Order Number One: “It is therefore ordered and decreed, that the masks and costumes of this Order be entirely abolished and destroyed.” By the end of his life, Forrest’s racial attitudes would evolve — in 1875, he advocated for the admission of blacks into law school — and he lived to fully renounce his involvement with the all-but-vanished Klan.” ~Huffington Post

Alien Overlord wrote:

Kannap wrote:
Bring down every Confederate statue that's in the public plaza, change every school, bridge, street, etc. named after Confederate generals, take every Confederate flag off government flagpoles.

So, censor anything that you find distasteful? Gotcha.

Nope, clearly you don't got me.

Alien Overlord wrote:A statue, the name of a school or a public plaza, none of that actually affects anyone in a meaningful way.

Wonder why Germany doesn't have statues of Hitler or schools named after him like we have statues and schools honoring Confederate generals. Almost like you shouldn't honor people who did horrible things, like commit genocide or fight and kill your countrymen for the right to own other human beings.

Ethel mermania wrote:Forrest repended his views later in life coming to fully support negro suffrage and championed the admission of a black kid into law school. So I believe that repentance is sincere.

I wonder if anyone else yet mentioned that.

I kind of feel in the case of forrest it is too little to late. I do not believe we should honor the man.

The people who want to honour the man are probably not honouring him for his later support for suffrage.

First American Empire wrote:

Kannap wrote:
Bring down every Confederate statue that's in the public plaza, change every school, bridge, street, etc. named after Confederate generals, take every Confederate flag off government flagpoles.

This. Also blow up Stone Mountain with a nuclear bomb. (Assuming there are no homes nearby, otherwise just blow it up with dynamite.)

Lots of people live right next to it. I briefly lived only a few kilometres from it when my family first moved to America. Just blow up the carvings, it'd be much easier then the whole mountain.

Kannap wrote:

Alien Overlord wrote:So, censor anything that you find distasteful? Gotcha.

Nope, clearly you don't got me.

Alien Overlord wrote:A statue, the name of a school or a public plaza, none of that actually affects anyone in a meaningful way.

Wonder why Germany doesn't have statues of Hitler or schools named after him like we have statues and schools honoring Confederate generals. Almost like you shouldn't honor people who did horrible things, like commit genocide or fight and kill your countrymen for the right to own other human beings.

Because Nazis or those who share similar ideologies aren't in power in Germany. If they ever return to power Hitler's face will appear on the new Reichsmark and future generations will believe that he was a German national hero.

P.S. Most "national heroes" tend to be highly deadly people.

Ethel mermania wrote:Forrest repended his views later in life coming to fully support negro suffrage and championed the admission of a black kid into law school. So I believe that repentance is sincere.

I wonder if anyone else yet mentioned that.

I kind of feel in the case of forrest it is too little to late. I do not believe we should honor the man.

Yeah: crucifying people and burning them alive isn't the sort of thing where saying sorry is sufficient.

Elgin Mills wrote:

Alien Overlord wrote:So, censor anything that you find distasteful? Gotcha.

A statue, the name of a school or a public plaza, none of that actually affects anyone in a meaningful way. Especially those who don't live around these things. As previously mentioned, these people are all DEAD. So who cares if the South wants to have a statue of them? Why does it honestly matter, and more so-why do some people feel it is justifiable to try and bring change on a community that isn't their own? The only people who should decide to take down the statue or rename the school are those actually living in the community where these things are. If people were as concerned about their own communities as they were about communities three states away, then our country would be a shining beacon of wealth and prosperity.

Removing statues is not censorship, because statues aren't speech. It's funny how no-one ever gets mad about Lenin statues getting torn down in 1991, but as soon as you go after our favorite band of Gentleman Slavers...

A painting isn't speech either, yet we would generally say that a regime that destroyed all paintings made by say, Jews, would be practicing censorship. Censorship, as the name implies is the censoring of ideas. A statue could very well represent an idea, and thus the destruction of a statue could represent the censorship of an idea.

I would be upset about a Lenin statue being torn down in 1991, if the community living around that statue didn't want it to be torn down. People were eager for those statues to go, and if people in the South wanted to get rid of all Confederate symbolism, then it would be the same case. But it should be their choice, a local decision and not a federal one.

i despite the Confederacy, but i recognize that not everyone feels that way. If states in the South want to celebrate the Confederacy, i'm not going to pretend to know better. That's a local decision and should be a local decision.