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Did you celebrate Nathan Bedford Forrest Day?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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I most certainly..

..did! He was a fine military leader and gentleman of the South
21
12%
..did! It's the law so I had to
1
1%
..did not! I refuse to celebrate this man
29
16%
..did not! I'm not even from Tennessee
48
26%
..did!..and I'm not even from Tennessee
5
3%
..think we should invade the South again
51
28%
..think idpol.. if people want to celebrate the 1st Grandmaster of the KKK then so be it
9
5%
..think we should click more polls on the subject
18
10%
 
Total votes : 182

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Arcadian States and Commonwealths
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Postby Arcadian States and Commonwealths » Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:32 pm

Christian Confederation wrote:
Robosia wrote:Why does a US States have a holiday celebrating a traitor? General Sherman would be rolling in his grave.

I don't give a Da*n what that piece of Sh** would think, he tourched my State and sent Carpetbaggers and other curupt invadors to "Rebuild" or state.


General Sherman did nothing wrong, the south seceded from the Union before a vote was placed in US federal congress. Then when the CSA declared independence they fired on US military bases(which if the CSA is independent like they claimed) it was an act of aggression and war, a war the south started, a war the south supported, and a war the south lost.

The reason why reconstruction failed is a southern nationalist killed Lincoln and with that any hope of a very forgiving reconstruction for the south. Honestly, the south shouldve been under martial law longer.
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Mettaton-EX
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Postby Mettaton-EX » Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:34 pm

Arcadian States and Commonwealths wrote:
General Sherman did nothing wrong,


sure he did. should have burned more slaveowners and less property that could have been seized and redistributed to former slaves
Last edited by Mettaton-EX on Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:36 pm

Yawkland wrote:
Heloin wrote:Then you jumped off the logical deep end with a line of reasoning that just doesn't make sense. The Confederates are un-American, that doesn't make them not American Citizens. These two things aren't mutually exclusive even if you think they are.


Well definitions matter, and does clarity.

I do not think it is fair to say that the Confederates were un-American. Un-American means that they were not Americans, even though we both agree that they were. They cannot both be Americans and not Americans at the same time.

It is more accurate to say that the Confederates were anti-American, because Americans can be anti-American, and we have a long history of many Americans being anti-American.

So this whole thing is just you being pedantic. Jesus, you fucking know what people mean when they say un-American.

And now, for as to why this should matter in regards to honoring them, the US honors tons of anti-Americans already, so it seems like an arbitrarily applied standard. If everyone who took up arms against the US government is an anti-American and a traitor, then this includes a lot of people from all over the political spectrum.

This is an easy line for Americans to draw. People who were "anti-America" and supported slavery you don't honour because they're scumbags. And everyone else you look at by a case by case basis.
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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:37 pm

Mettaton-EX wrote:
Arcadian States and Commonwealths wrote:
General Sherman did nothing wrong,


sure he did. should have burned more slaveowners and less property that could have been seized and redistributed to former slaves

He should have told Andrew Johnson to suck it and fully implemented Special Field Orders No. 15.
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Arcadian States and Commonwealths
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Postby Arcadian States and Commonwealths » Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:38 pm

ECKU wrote:
Arcadian States and Commonwealths wrote:If it is done right it can be a good idea since he realized he was wrong and tried to fix his mistakes but we all know racists will use it as a day for a pro-CSA circle jerk while being ignorant of the fact he disavowed the Klan

"After only a year as Grand Wizard, in January 1869, faced with an ungovernable membership employing methods that seemed increasingly counterproductive, Forrest issued KKK General Order Number One: “It is therefore ordered and decreed, that the masks and costumes of this Order be entirely abolished and destroyed.” By the end of his life, Forrest’s racial attitudes would evolve — in 1875, he advocated for the admission of blacks into law school — and he lived to fully renounce his involvement with the all-but-vanished Klan.” ~Huffington Post

Then why not celebrate that part of his life instead of the racist part? Geez, this is what I hate about the South


And I do agree with you, but we know some ill-informed groups won't let that happen
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Yawkland
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Postby Yawkland » Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:39 pm

Heloin wrote:
Yawkland wrote:
Well definitions matter, and does clarity.

I do not think it is fair to say that the Confederates were un-American. Un-American means that they were not Americans, even though we both agree that they were. They cannot both be Americans and not Americans at the same time.

It is more accurate to say that the Confederates were anti-American, because Americans can be anti-American, and we have a long history of many Americans being anti-American.

So this whole thing is just you being pedantic. Jesus, you fucking know what people mean when they say un-American.


It's not pedantry. Un-American means that something is not American (for example the sport of cricket is un-American). Anti-American means in opposition to America, which is more accurate.

Heloin wrote:
And now, for as to why this should matter in regards to honoring them, the US honors tons of anti-Americans already, so it seems like an arbitrarily applied standard. If everyone who took up arms against the US government is an anti-American and a traitor, then this includes a lot of people from all over the political spectrum.

This is an easy line for Americans to draw. People who were "anti-America" and supported slavery you don't honour because they're scumbags.


Do you apply this standard to the various slave-holding Indian tribes who took up arms against the US government? By this logic we should not honor the Cherokee and Choctaw leaders as well.
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Arcadian States and Commonwealths
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Postby Arcadian States and Commonwealths » Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:40 pm

Mettaton-EX wrote:
Arcadian States and Commonwealths wrote:
General Sherman did nothing wrong,


sure he did. should have burned more slaveowners and less property that could have been seized and redistributed to former slaves


Fair point, but the scorched Earth policy was needed though. One of the best things he did is burn down county offices that held deeds to land, so they couldn't prove who owned the land and then gave it to the slaves since the landowners had no proof of ownership.
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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:45 pm

Yawkland wrote:
Heloin wrote:So this whole thing is just you being pedantic. Jesus, you fucking know what people mean when they say un-American.


It's not pedantry. Un-American means that something is not American (for example the sport of cricket is un-American). Anti-American means in opposition to America, which is more accurate.

It's entirely pedantic.

This is an easy line for Americans to draw. People who were "anti-America" and supported slavery you don't honour because they're scumbags.


Do you apply this standard to the various slave-holding Indian tribes who took up arms against the US government? By this logic we should not honor the Cherokee and Choctaw leaders as well.

The Natives who took up arms in order to keep owning other humans? Yes they shouldn't be honoured. You're not doing very well with these logical extremes.
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ECKU
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Postby ECKU » Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:45 pm

Yawkland wrote:
Heloin wrote:So this whole thing is just you being pedantic. Jesus, you fucking know what people mean when they say un-American.


It's not pedantry. Un-American means that something is not American (for example the sport of cricket is un-American). Anti-American means in opposition to America, which is more accurate.

Heloin wrote:This is an easy line for Americans to draw. People who were "anti-America" and supported slavery you don't honour because they're scumbags.


Do you apply this standard to the various slave-holding Indian tribes who took up arms against the US government? By this logic we should not honor the Cherokee and Choctaw leaders as well.

There are no statues of Indigenous slaveowners, nor are they (widely) honored.
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Postby Alien Overlord » Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:47 pm

Ifreann wrote:
Alien Overlord wrote:They should try and motivate change within their own community-or just move to somewhere different.

So you agree that it does affect people in a meaningful way.
Not all states or cities or counties are the same. A referendum is the fairest way to get over issues like this, and if the referendum isn't in your favor then it won't matter. People's opinions aren't going to change because you forbid a holiday-it may even cause resentment and backlash onto African Americans-in the case of possibly banning Nathan Bedford Forrest day for example.

Why should people need to win a referendum before their state government respects them?

If the people in Tennessee wanted this holiday then we should abide by the majority's decision.

When was the referendum?
As long as there isn't actual discrimination, then it will just have to be something that the minority will have to deal with.

Or they can have the law repealed without a referendum.

I don't think it does, but i think there are people who could be easily offended by it nowadays. Which is their right to be offended, and if they are so upset by these sort of things, then the best they can do is move away. However whether you are offended by something or not, that doesn't change your job opportunities or your ability to buy a house or support a family. A statue that you don't even have to look at or walk past or ever see, or a holiday you don't really have to celebrate doesn't affect you for longer than a day (in the case of the Holiday)-it's not going to affect your circumstances.

As long as it doesn't trail into actual discrimination, state governments do respect African Americans. As mentioned before, you can be of color and still live a decent life without ever giving these sort of harmless things a second thought. However using referendums for decisions like this ensures that the majority of a community is happy with a decision. No matter what decision is taken, someone is going to be unhappy-so the fairest way to go about things is to let the community sort these questions out themselves.

I'm advocating for a referendum that obviously hasn't happened yet. A referendum would clearly-mathematically determine the course of action that would result in the highest number of people within a community.

They could, or they could have a referendum to decide whether the people of Tennessee actually want this law repealed. The State Government of Tennessee is supposed to represent the wishes of the people living within Tennessee, a referendum would tell the State Government what it's constituents want to happen.
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Postby Liriena » Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:47 pm

Do it again, Uncle Billy!
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Postby Yawkland » Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:48 pm

Heloin wrote:
Yawkland wrote:
It's not pedantry. Un-American means that something is not American (for example the sport of cricket is un-American). Anti-American means in opposition to America, which is more accurate.

It's entirely pedantic.


Do you apply this standard to the various slave-holding Indian tribes who took up arms against the US government? By this logic we should not honor the Cherokee and Choctaw leaders as well.

The Natives who took up arms in order to keep owning other humans? Yes they shouldn't be honoured. You're not doing very well with these logical extremes.


Well I appreciate your consistency.
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Postby Yawkland » Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:49 pm

ECKU wrote:
Yawkland wrote:
It's not pedantry. Un-American means that something is not American (for example the sport of cricket is un-American). Anti-American means in opposition to America, which is more accurate.



Do you apply this standard to the various slave-holding Indian tribes who took up arms against the US government? By this logic we should not honor the Cherokee and Choctaw leaders as well.

There are no statues of Indigenous slaveowners, nor are they (widely) honored.


There are several statues, many of them at state capitals/city halls. We have many schools, streets, and even cities named after Indians!
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Postby The Sherpa Empire » Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:52 pm

Pere Housh Alpha wrote:
Kowani wrote:Repeal. That’s about it. Repeal the laws celebrating the Confederates.

How about we don't.


How about we do.

Do you have something against Robert E. Lee?


Yes.
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Postby ECKU » Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:04 pm

Yawkland wrote:
ECKU wrote:There are no statues of Indigenous slaveowners, nor are they (widely) honored.


There are several statues, many of them at state capitals/city halls. We have many schools, streets, and even cities named after Indians!

Any names after slaveowners who were Native Americans?
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:26 pm

ECKU wrote:
Yawkland wrote:
There are several statues, many of them at state capitals/city halls. We have many schools, streets, and even cities named after Indians!

Any names after slaveowners who were Native Americans?

idk actually, does stand watie have a statue anywhere?
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Postby Ethel mermania » Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:39 pm

Kannap wrote:
Alien Overlord wrote:I've been to North Carolina-i'm fairly certain i visited a restaurant called Cracker Barrel while i was there. It was an interesting state

Unlike West Virginia


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Postby Tombradyonia » Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:53 pm

Liriena wrote:Do it again, Uncle Billy!


I really shouldn't say it but it's almost a shame the southerners didn't try to hold out for another month or two. Uncle Billy could have given Virginia the same treatment that Georgia and South Carolina got. I dare say the traitors got off light. In my opinion the entire political leadership, all the senior generals and state government leaders should have been hanged.
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Postby Ifreann » Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:58 pm

Alien Overlord wrote:
The South Falls wrote:They are unequivocally traitors, which renders them un-American. There is no ambiguousness about it.

Ironically America was born from traitors to the British Crown. If we had lost, then it's likely the founding fathers would be looked down upon with far more disdain.

People who rebelled from their distant colonial overlord to establish a democratic government based on principles of equality and liberty.

People who rebelled from that nation in explicit opposition to those ideals in favour of founding a new government based on racism and slavery.

Both the same, apart from the first winning and the second losing.


Alien Overlord wrote:
Ifreann wrote:So you agree that it does affect people in a meaningful way.

Why should people need to win a referendum before their state government respects them?


When was the referendum?

Or they can have the law repealed without a referendum.

I don't think it does, but i think there are people who could be easily offended by it nowadays.

Yeah, those snowflakes. Getting mad that the government is endorsing the enslavement of their race by praising and glorifying the people who fought for that.
Which is their right to be offended, and if they are so upset by these sort of things, then the best they can do is move away. However whether you are offended by something or not, that doesn't change your job opportunities or your ability to buy a house or support a family. A statue that you don't even have to look at or walk past or ever see, or a holiday you don't really have to celebrate doesn't affect you for longer than a day (in the case of the Holiday)-it's not going to affect your circumstances.

As long as it doesn't trail into actual discrimination, state governments do respect African Americans.

Clearly not, or they'd repeal this law.
As mentioned before, you can be of color and still live a decent life without ever giving these sort of harmless things a second thought.

I don't know why you think that if people have a job they can just ignore the government loving slavers.
However using referendums for decisions like this ensures that the majority of a community is happy with a decision. No matter what decision is taken, someone is going to be unhappy-so the fairest way to go about things is to let the community sort these questions out themselves.

Holding referenda doesn't let a community sort things out among themselves. We legalised abortion by referendum and the matter is not sorted out. The losing side continues to protest.

I'm advocating for a referendum that obviously hasn't happened yet. A referendum would clearly-mathematically determine the course of action that would result in the highest number of people within a community.

A referendum wasn't need to enact the law, why should one be needed to repeal it?
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Postby Kowani » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:00 pm

Tombradyonia wrote:
Liriena wrote:Do it again, Uncle Billy!


I really shouldn't say it but it's almost a shame the southerners didn't try to hold out for another month or two. Uncle Billy could have given Virginia the same treatment that Georgia and South Carolina got. I dare say the traitors got off light. In my opinion the entire political leadership, all the senior generals and state government leaders should have been hanged.

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Postby Highever » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:01 pm

First American Empire wrote:
Kannap wrote:
Bring down every Confederate statue that's in the public plaza, change every school, bridge, street, etc. named after Confederate generals, take every Confederate flag off government flagpoles.


This. Also blow up Stone Mountain with a nuclear bomb. (Assuming there are no homes nearby, otherwise just blow it up with dynamite.)

Considering it is smack in the middle of a suburb of one of the biggest metropolitan areas in the nation, the nuclear option is probably not the best.
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Postby Bear Stearns » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:03 pm

Tombradyonia wrote:
Liriena wrote:Do it again, Uncle Billy!


I really shouldn't say it but it's almost a shame the southerners didn't try to hold out for another month or two. Uncle Billy could have given Virginia the same treatment that Georgia and South Carolina got. I dare say the traitors got off light. In my opinion the entire political leadership, all the senior generals and state government leaders should have been hanged.



The United States is an Anglo-Saxon democracy, not Tsarist Russia. We don't engage in that sort of barbarism.
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Postby Arlenton » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:08 pm

Not from Tennessee, but he was an important figure in the state. Hope everyone had a great NBF day.

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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:08 pm

Bear Stearns wrote:
Tombradyonia wrote:
I really shouldn't say it but it's almost a shame the southerners didn't try to hold out for another month or two. Uncle Billy could have given Virginia the same treatment that Georgia and South Carolina got. I dare say the traitors got off light. In my opinion the entire political leadership, all the senior generals and state government leaders should have been hanged.

The United States is an Anglo-Saxon democracy, not Tsarist Russia. We don't engage in that sort of barbarism.

Seeing that it put the final nail in the coffin for the Confederacy seems like it was a good idea.
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Postby Bear Stearns » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:10 pm

Heloin wrote:
Bear Stearns wrote:The United States is an Anglo-Saxon democracy, not Tsarist Russia. We don't engage in that sort of barbarism.

Seeing that it put the final nail in the coffin for the Confederacy seems like it was a good idea.


We defeated the Confederacy well enough without having to literally turn the South into a Pale of Settlement or Ulster.
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