Did you celebrate Nathan Bedford Forrest Day?

[Ifreann]

Bring down every Confederate statue that's in the public plaza, change every school, bridge, street, etc. named after Confederate generals, take every Confederate flag off government flagpoles.

So, censor anything that you find distasteful? Gotcha.

A statue, the name of a school or a public plaza, none of that actually affects anyone in a meaningful way.

Do you think? I would imagine that black Americans might be rather put off by their state government officially celebrating the men who wanted them kept in chains, and fought to achieve that goal.

[Tombradyonia]

You might have your reasons, but I feel it isn't right. There are racists who celebrate him, but you might not be one.

Andrew Jackson did a lot of good things for common people, so it's not fair to say that everyone who likes him is racist.

But this does beg to question, if you take left-wing/social justice/whatever to its logical conclusion, then pretty much all American history before 1964 is racist and America itself is an inherently racist nation. And if racism is the ultimate evil of our time, and anything that celebrates the old America is racist, then therefore celebrating the old America is bad and should not be done.

And a country that doesn't celebrate its past is a country ripping apart at the seams.

I think you might want to replace 'celebrate' with 'remember'.

We should remember the past and not bury it because parts of it were maybe not so good (to put it mildly). But one cannot change the past, one can only change the future by making progress in the present, potentially having learned from past mistakes.

[Kowani]

1. Tennessee is in the US, so the federal government does have a legitimate interest in who is honored within it. And traitors, whose cause was slavery, should not be honored.

The United States operates under a federal system rather than a unitary one. That means individual states are relegated some autonomy as to how they manage their affairs. The Federal Government has decided that the states are allowed to build statues and have local holidays-which means it should abide by what the individual states choose for those statues or holidays.

If you say to a child that they can draw a picture with the crayons in a box and they do, you can't morally be upset with them because they used a red crayon and you don't particularly like the color red. The Federal Government gives the State's the delegated right to decide these things-holidays and statues and that. So it's a local affair and it should stay a local affair. The Federal Government can't arbitrarily pick and choose which are right and which are wrong. Especially when these sorts of things aren't causing any harm-or the local community wants them to stay or be built (or have the holiday). But ending that holiday or destroying that statue stirs up polarization and serves no purpose but to make people in the local community less happy.

Using either local or state-wide referendums will allow local communities to be happy with the making or destruction or keeping of things like holidays or statues.

A point: None of these statues were built with any intention of anything besides intimidation of black people. It’s why they were all built during Reconstruction, usually in black neighborhoods. So that whole “nobody was harmed” thing? Bull crap.

Additionally, your analogy fails. It would be like giving a kid a box of crayons and then getting upset because he drew a picture of people fucking. Your analogy would be valid if the objection was not to what was represented, but rather to how it was done. Actually, it’s worse, because at least with the kid you can possibly claim innocence.

Plus, from a realpolitik perspective, Tennessee can’t really afford to piss off the federal government. It’s finances wouldn’t allow it.

[Alien Overlord]

So, censor anything that you find distasteful? Gotcha.

A statue, the name of a school or a public plaza, none of that actually affects anyone in a meaningful way.

Do you think? I would imagine that black Americans might be rather put off by their state government officially celebrating the men who wanted them kept in chains, and fought to achieve that goal.

They should try and motivate change within their own community-or just move to somewhere different. Not all states or cities or counties are the same. A referendum is the fairest way to get over issues like this, and if the referendum isn't in your favor then it won't matter. People's opinions aren't going to change because you forbid a holiday-it may even cause resentment and backlash onto African Americans-in the case of possibly banning Nathan Bedford Forrest day for example.

If the people in Tennessee wanted this holiday then we should abide by the majority's decision. As long as there isn't actual discrimination, then it will just have to be something that the minority will have to deal with.

[The South Falls]

You might have your reasons, but I feel it isn't right. There are racists who celebrate him, but you might not be one.

Andrew Jackson did a lot of good things for common people, so it's not fair to say that everyone who likes him is racist.

But this does beg to question, if you take left-wing/social justice/whatever to its logical conclusion, then pretty much all American history before 1964 is racist and America itself is an inherently racist nation. And if racism is the ultimate evil of our time, and anything that celebrates the old America is racist, then therefore celebrating the old America is bad and should not be done.

And a country that doesn't celebrate its past is a country ripping apart at the seams.

Which is why I don't take things to a logical conclusion. It's case-by-case.

[Robosia]

Why does a US States have a holiday celebrating a traitor? General Sherman would be rolling in his grave.

[Christian Confederation]

Why does a US States have a holiday celebrating a traitor? General Sherman would be rolling in his grave.

I don't give a Da*n what that piece of Sh** would think, he tourched my State and sent Carpetbaggers and other curupt invadors to "Rebuild" or state.

[Tombradyonia]

Why does a US States have a holiday celebrating a traitor? General Sherman would be rolling in his grave.

I don't give a Da*n what that piece of Sh** would think, he tourched my State and sent Carpetbaggers and other curupt invadors to "Rebuild" or state.

Triggered, much?

W.T. Sherman is an American hero for helping to put down a treasonous rebellion. Shame that within a decade the traitors were given back control of their states and immediately proceeded to strip former slaves of virtually all rights and kept that up for almost a century.

[Kowani]

Why does a US States have a holiday celebrating a traitor? General Sherman would be rolling in his grave.

I don't give a Da*n what that piece of Sh** would think, he tourched my State and sent Carpetbaggers and other curupt invadors to "Rebuild" or state.

Considering the State of the South, he fucking failed at the rebuilding.

[Caracasus]

So there's a holiday honouring the first leader of the KKK? As in the KKK who went about lynching people? Fuck's sake, where's John Brown when you need him?

[Fasma]

Nope, just read about him today. He has quite a violent history and has committed a great deal of atrocities, including the slaughter of surrendering troops. That being said, he denounced racism by the end of his life and called for peace among racial groups... At least from what I've read briefly. Not sure if his change of heart is what he is being celebrated for though...

[Kannap]

In a negative manner.

I wouldn't be opposed to not celebrating him.

He was a corrupt president, once again a murderer, and champion/prosecutor/purveyor of the Indian removal act, which had its own death count.

Would you be opposed to some holier-than-thou people who weren't even from where you live said you were racist for celebrating him though?

If I'm being racist I'd like people to call me out on my shit, yeah.

[Kannap]

So, censor anything that you find distasteful? Gotcha.

A statue, the name of a school or a public plaza, none of that actually affects anyone in a meaningful way.

Do you think? I would imagine that black Americans might be rather put off by their state government officially celebrating the men who wanted them kept in chains, and fought to achieve that goal.

The solution is simple, as Donald Trump says, they should go back to their corrupt, ugly, disease-ridden home country, uh *reads note* Memphis.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

Just saying, if you guys want to sell Tennessee to Canada, we would take it.

We could use the warmth for the winter and we could drive out this crazy idea of celebrating a KKK leader.

[ECKU]

Why does a US States have a holiday celebrating a traitor? General Sherman would be rolling in his grave.

I don't give a Da*n what that piece of Sh** would think, he tourched my State and sent Carpetbaggers and other curupt invadors to "Rebuild" or state.

Why do you care so much about racist chattel slavers?

[Alien Overlord]

The United States operates under a federal system rather than a unitary one. That means individual states are relegated some autonomy as to how they manage their affairs. The Federal Government has decided that the states are allowed to build statues and have local holidays-which means it should abide by what the individual states choose for those statues or holidays.

If you say to a child that they can draw a picture with the crayons in a box and they do, you can't morally be upset with them because they used a red crayon and you don't particularly like the color red. The Federal Government gives the State's the delegated right to decide these things-holidays and statues and that. So it's a local affair and it should stay a local affair. The Federal Government can't arbitrarily pick and choose which are right and which are wrong. Especially when these sorts of things aren't causing any harm-or the local community wants them to stay or be built (or have the holiday). But ending that holiday or destroying that statue stirs up polarization and serves no purpose but to make people in the local community less happy.

Using either local or state-wide referendums will allow local communities to be happy with the making or destruction or keeping of things like holidays or statues.

A point: None of these statues were built with any intention of anything besides intimidation of black people. It’s why they were all built during Reconstruction, usually in black neighborhoods. So that whole “nobody was harmed” thing? Bull crap.

Additionally, your analogy fails. It would be like giving a kid a box of crayons and then getting upset because he drew a picture of people fucking. Your analogy would be valid if the objection was not to what was represented, but rather to how it was done. Actually, it’s worse, because at least with the kid you can possibly claim innocence.

Plus, from a realpolitik perspective, Tennessee can’t really afford to piss off the federal government. It’s finances wouldn’t allow it.

Nobody is being harmed because of these statues, or place names or holidays. What they were used for in the past doesn't matter now because we live in the present. It could very well mean something different to those living in these communities today than it originally did when they were first put up. And inevitably it still isn't our job to step in and be the hero in this situation. Let the communities decide their own affairs-our job (the Federal Governments job actually) is to deal with real discrimination-which these things aren't in a legal or practical sense.

If your child drew people fucking using crayons, that doesn't mean you stop him from ever drawing again or incinerate his crayons in fire. The child has to not want to draw that sort of thing on their own volition, from their own experiences, or it will come out in other ways. A community that collectively decides to put up or tear down something like a statue will be happy with their decision-whereas it's unlikely they will be happy about it if an outside force comes in and tears it down regardless of their feelings.

Lets say your child draws that obscene picture. You say to them that they have two options. Either they A) Continue drawing that or B) They can draw something else they like. Now say they choose option A. We obviously don't like that decision, but if we allow it at first because it can be channeled. We can discuss with that child why they shouldn't and why it is wrong. We can educate them so that they want to draw something else.

Now, assume you don't give the child the option and forbid him from doing it or speaking about it-you censor it. And he/she for whatever f'ed up reason wants to anyways. What's likely to ensue is a temper tantrum and rebellion-they will do it anyways, just maybe on your walls and not on paper.

What i'm getting at is that even if you don't agree that a community should decide for itself what to do with things like these statues, you should at least agree that taking the decision out of the communities hands will lead to backlash from the community. Allowing this holiday for Forrest will mean that more people read and learn about him and his deeds, and that may cause change in the community-real, viable change because the community actually wants it.

[ECKU]

Nope, just read about him today. He has quite a violent history and has committed a great deal of atrocities, including the slaughter of surrendering troops. That being said, he denounced racism by the end of his life and called for peace among racial groups... At least from what I've read briefly. Not sure if his change of heart is what he is being celebrated for though...

If his renunciation is sincere that's what we should be celebrating, not that he was a member of the worst terrorist group in American history.

[Yawkland]

Do you think? I would imagine that black Americans might be rather put off by their state government officially celebrating the men who wanted them kept in chains, and fought to achieve that goal.

The solution is simple, as Donald Trump says, they should go back to their corrupt, ugly, disease-ridden home country, uh *reads note* Memphis.

Those qualities all accurately describe Memphis.

[Yawkland]

Why does a US States have a holiday celebrating a traitor? General Sherman would be rolling in his grave.

A traitor to the Union, but a hero to Tennessee, perhaps.

[ECKU]

Why does a US States have a holiday celebrating a traitor? General Sherman would be rolling in his grave.

A traitor to the Union, but a hero to Tennessee, perhaps.

He wasn't. Not until he changed his views anyways.

[Kannap]

Just saying, if you guys want to sell Tennessee to Canada, we would take it.

We could use the warmth for the winter and we could drive out this crazy idea of celebrating a KKK leader.

If you take Tennessee, you guys have to buy Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, SC, and NC too.

[Cameroi]

never heard of the bastard, but i'd gladly "celibrate" by pissing on his grave if i could.

the only good thing to remember about the evil side of history, is that it happened and to avoid repeating it.
and the way to avoid repeating it, is to avoid the priorities and perspectives that made it possible.

there are too many things that are the evil side of history that people do know about and celibrate as it is.
there are no rights of conquest, just bloody genocides. like columbus.
occasionally the side that is both illogical and immoral also looses, such was the case in the american civil war.
the kkk was and remains a terrorist organization, as much so as any alquida or talibon.

[Tombradyonia]

Is there a state that has a John Brown day? Or maybe we can introduce a Tecumseh Sherman day somewhere? It's only fair, after all. If traitors can have states celebrating days, then heroes should too.

[Fasma]

Nope, just read about him today. He has quite a violent history and has committed a great deal of atrocities, including the slaughter of surrendering troops. That being said, he denounced racism by the end of his life and called for peace among racial groups... At least from what I've read briefly. Not sure if his change of heart is what he is being celebrated for though...

If his renunciation is sincere that's what we should be celebrating, not that he was a member of the worst terrorist group in American history.

Agreed. No matter what evil someone commits, they must always be allowed to redeem themselves. While nothing can take away what they have done in the past, people must be encouraged to change for the better.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

Just saying, if you guys want to sell Tennessee to Canada, we would take it.

We could use the warmth for the winter and we could drive out this crazy idea of celebrating a KKK leader.

If you take Tennessee, you guys have to buy Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, SC, and NC too.

Why not?

Let's splurge a little.