Should undocumented US migrants enjoy 2nd Amendment rights?

[UIJ]

But it is illegal, and quite different than being here legally

About as different as driving with an expired license, at least in the case of a plurality of cases. A significant number of undocumented immigrants only overstayed their visas.

“Only overstayed”
If you have a deadline to be out of the country, and you are not out of the country, that would be a crime.

It’s not like I don’t have sympathy, but under laws, that would be illegal, thus they are here illegally.

[Igueranel]

The Second Amendment speaks of "the right of the People to keep and bear Arms." In other Constitutional cases, "person" and "People" has been construed to include anyone physically in the US. Logically, undocumented migrants in the US should have the right to keep and bear arms.

One commonly cited reason for Amendment II is to enable the populace to defend itself against a tyrranical government. A government that seeks to put one's children in concentration camps and send one to a country one has fled from is by definition tyrranical. Again, logically, undocumented migrants in the US should have the right to keep and bear arms to defend themseves from the US government.

However, if US government has the right to restrict undocumented migrants' access to arms, why does it not have the right to make other common-sense restrictions on gun ownership including universal background checks, magazine size restrictions, or bans on semiautomatics and bump stocks?

A government that seeks to put one's children in concentration camps and send one to a country one has fled is by definition tyrranical? Uh, what dictionary do you use? Firstly, and I cannot stress this enough, THESE ARE NOT CONCENTRATION CAMPS. Second, by definition a government is tyrannical if it is unjustly cruel and oppressive. An unspoken part of that definition is that a government is tyrannical to its own citizens. If migrants are not citizens(they aren't if they're in detention centers), the actions of the government may be cruel, but they are not tyrannical.

Now as for the constitution, most rights are available to non-citizens. The second amendment has never been specifically addressed by the Supreme Court, but non-citizens do have freedom of speech and religion, as well as the same protections in court.

However, you specify "undocumented migrants." These are illegal immigrants. By crossing the US border at points other than designated crossings, undocumented migrants have broken United States law. Entry at points not designated as border crossings is a misdemeanor, and when repeated can be charged as a felony.

So, technically, an illegal immigrant can buy a firearm, provided they have committed no other crimes and have not been aprehended crossing the border repeatedly. I'm not sure how they get through background checks without any kind of documentation, so they would have to go through various other channels to get them.

Whether non-citizens should be legally allowed to arm themselves on US soil is a hard question. Saying no needs a stronger defense than just terrorists abusing that protection, saying yes needs to acknowledge some terrorists will try to abuse that protection.

But dang it, old second amendment loving me has to lean towards yes. Simply because at this time entering the US illegally is not a felony.

[Duhon]

About as different as driving with an expired license, at least in the case of a plurality of cases. A significant number of undocumented immigrants only overstayed their visas.

“Only overstayed”
If you have a deadline to be out of the country, and you are not out of the country, that would be a crime.

It’s not like I don’t have sympathy, but under laws, that would be illegal, thus they are here illegally.

Technically, yes. For most of them, though, trusting them with constitutional rights is one that has been roundly reciprocated.

[Pyta]

About as different as driving with an expired license, at least in the case of a plurality of cases. A significant number of undocumented immigrants only overstayed their visas.

“Only overstayed”
If you have a deadline to be out of the country, and you are not out of the country, that would be a crime.

It’s not like I don’t have sympathy, but under laws, that would be illegal, thus they are here illegally.

again, so is speeding, but I've done that and they still let me buy guns.

[Free Arabian Nation]

Absolutly not.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

A well regulated militia is necessarily made up of citizens who are fully political enfranchised in the republic. This tradition dates back to the Roman Republic and I am pretty sure thats the way how the founders intended it.

In that context, citizenship is also granted to people who serve in the US Military. So if they want to go that route they should join the military.

Service guarantees citizenship and thus also the right to bear arms.

Not really, no

You'd be right if it said: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the militia to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

This is missing something, however. A key phrase, "the people". Back in the time of Archaic America, the militia was the military such as in Section 8:15, where it said that "To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions". This is giving Congress the right to raise an army to defend the nation from invasions and holding peace internally. What does that sound like? Certainly does not sound like the militia we're used to by the modern standard

Anyways, The militia was needed to defend the nation from threats. However, they realized that, much like the British Empire, a militia (or any other military) can be used to oppress the people. Therefore, the right of the people to keep and bear arms should not be infringed.

How people somehow manage to get "The Government was giving the militias the right to own guns" confuses me.

[Nakena]

Absolutly not.



A well regulated militia is necessarily made up of citizens who are fully political enfranchised in the republic. This tradition dates back to the Roman Republic and I am pretty sure thats the way how the founders intended it.

In that context, citizenship is also granted to people who serve in the US Military. So if they want to go that route they should join the military.

Service guarantees citizenship and thus also the right to bear arms.

Except that's not what's happening. Presumably you haven't heard of immigrant soldiers being quietly discharged from their posts recently?

Here you go.

Thats something that needs to be looked into. I am not sure if those are singular or systematic cases. Skip-reading through the article I am very surprised though that they do accepted iranian and pakistanis into their ranks in the first place, given the usual secrutiy concerns regardings those countries of origin.

Regardless my position stands and I believe that those who spilled their blood for a nation in defending and fighting for, should also be entitled to it's citizenship.

[UIJ]

Absolutly not.



A well regulated militia is necessarily made up of citizens who are fully political enfranchised in the republic. This tradition dates back to the Roman Republic and I am pretty sure thats the way how the founders intended it.

In that context, citizenship is also granted to people who serve in the US Military. So if they want to go that route they should join the military.

Service guarantees citizenship and thus also the right to bear arms.

Except that's not what's happening. Presumably you haven't heard of immigrant soldiers being quietly discharged from their posts recently?

Here you go.

what the actual shit

“Only overstayed”
If you have a deadline to be out of the country, and you are not out of the country, that would be a crime.

It’s not like I don’t have sympathy, but under laws, that would be illegal, thus they are here illegally.

again, so is speeding, but I've done that and they still let me buy guns.

But the difference being that are you are a citizen of the US.

[Rojava Free State]

I once saw a guy on a thread claim he would sell a gun to chris chan because "it's everyone's right and there should be no limits." Okay, so will you sell a gun to an illegal immigrant? I trust an undocumented migrant with a pistol more than I trust a deranged manchild

[Pyta]

Except that's not what's happening. Presumably you haven't heard of immigrant soldiers being quietly discharged from their posts recently?

Here you go.

what the actual shit

The cruelty is the point.

[Free Arabian Nation]

Except that's not what's happening. Presumably you haven't heard of immigrant soldiers being quietly discharged from their posts recently?

Here you go.

what the actual shit

I concur

[Empires Empire]

All gun laws are infringement, so yes.

They can buy nice guns here, and then take them home with them gift wrapped when we deport them.

In fact, we should put in a gift shop at the deportation centers so they can shop on their way out.

Really they'll probably need them when they go back home anyways, chances are the authoritarian crime-ridden hellholes they came from will be better off for an influx of firepower that is not in the hands of their illegitimate kleptocratic government or the roving street gangs. Besides, we make the best guns here, everyone on Earth should have access to them at reasonable prices.

[Nakena]

All gun laws are infringement, so yes.

They can buy nice guns here, and then take them home with them gift wrapped when we deport them.

In fact, we should put in a gift shop at the deportation centers so they can shop on their way out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal

[Solarist VZ]

-snip-

A immigrant isn't a citizen. The 2A exists to allow the Citizens of the United States to organize themselves to defend their liberties and interests. And to be fair, mass migration can be bad, as it brings both the best (resulting in brain-drain for their origin country, as all countries want the best for themselves) and the worst.
As a person in a undemocratic country (venezuela) that has disarmed their populace. I say every single nation to have their own 2A equivalent to their own citizens can defend their rights.

[Duhon]

-snip-

A immigrant isn't a citizen. The 2A exists to allow the Citizens of the United States to organize themselves to defend their liberties and interests. And to be fair, mass migration can be bad, as it brings both the best (resulting in brain-drain for their origin country, as all countries want the best for themselves) and the worst.
As a person in a undemocratic country (venezuela) that has disarmed their populace. I say every single nation to have their own 2A equivalent to their own citizens can defend their rights.

Depends on the country, but as there's a gun thread in this forum...

[Empires Empire]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal

I see no problem with selling small arms to everyone on the planet. Things can only improve that way in most places.

Anyone who's worried about this clearly needs to buy more guns.

[Dytarma]

Illegals are illegal, and they're illegal for a reason, they shouldnt get gun rights. Example. Imagine if I went into a house and asked for a TV. The owner of said home would probably say no, however due to a family rule stating the TV is a natural right, they give one to me. Now I have a TV since family rights apply to non family. It sounds dumb, doesn't it.

[Empires Empire]

Illegals are illegal, and they're illegal for a reason, they shouldnt get gun rights. Example. Imagine if I went into a house and asked for a TV. The owner of said home would probably say no, however due to a family rule stating the TV is a natural right, they give one to me. Now I have a TV since family rights apply to non family. It sounds dumb, doesn't it.

You're missing the point. Everyone should have the right to BUY whatever they want, at reasonable market value prices.

Giving them FREE guns would be wrong, nobody should get free anything. If they have cash, they should be allowed to purchase whatever they want with it, before we kick them out of the country.

[Imbalistan]

Look, undocumented US migrants should be treated like humans. But, they should have the penalty of not owning a gun.

[Liriena]

For one, being an undocumented immigrant is, in and of itself, a victimless crime. And it's not even a felony.

Speeding is also a victimless crime. A lot of crimes can be victimless. Doesn’t mean they aren’t a crime.

But the fact that they are victimless does raise an issue of whether it is just to morally condemn and absolutely exclude from our society people whose "crime" has, in and of itself, harmed nobody. Stoners commit a crime every time they carry a blunt with them, but I imagine most sensible people would not see that as grounds to denigrate them, to see them as unworthy of a place in society, to deprive them of any opportunity to prove their worth.

If we don't give up on people who smoke pot, if we don't cast them out of our society for committing a victimless crime, why undocumented immigrants?

[Liriena]

Illegals are illegal, and they're illegal for a reason

Usually, the reason is visa overstay.

[Duhon]

Look, undocumented US migrants should be treated like humans. But, they should have the penalty of not owning a gun.

I tend to agree with this, but for the reason that I am against guns anyway.

[Liriena]

About as different as driving with an expired license, at least in the case of a plurality of cases. A significant number of undocumented immigrants only overstayed their visas.

“Only overstayed”
If you have a deadline to be out of the country, and you are not out of the country, that would be a crime.

It’s not like I don’t have sympathy, but under laws, that would be illegal, thus they are here illegally.

Do you think them overstaying their visas is such an immoral act that it warrants depriving them of constitutional rights? Do the material consequences of them overstaying their visas warrant such a thing? I'm not asking legally. I'm asking ethically.

[Igueranel]

Absolutly not.

Except that's not what's happening. Presumably you haven't heard of immigrant soldiers being quietly discharged from their posts recently?

Here you go.

What the hell? That ain't right. I can understand putting them on delay, but discharging them because someone forgot to do the proper paperwork? Trusting that the answers they got were even honest, that's not ok.

[Empires Empire]

Look, undocumented US migrants should be treated like humans. But, they should have the penalty of not owning a gun.

I reserve the right to kick a human off my property who showed up without invitation, but if they want to buy some guns before they go home that's cool. Then they're a paying customer and probably get permission to use the bathroom before they leave.

[Liriena]

I reserve the right to kick a human off my property who showed up without invitation

A country is not personal property.