NATION

PASSWORD

Should America Roll Back Voting Rights for the Masses?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
User avatar
Jean-Paul Sartre
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1684
Founded: Jun 26, 2019
Ex-Nation

Should America Roll Back Voting Rights for the Masses?

Postby Jean-Paul Sartre » Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:50 pm

To be clear, I am not talking about restricting voting based on:
-Race
-Gender
-Religion
-Creed
-Sexual Orientation

What am I talking about restricting voting based on? Property rights, and/or intelligence, to the extent that intelligence can be measured, along with restricting the extent to which the popular vote can decide elections. Does this have any precedent?

Property rights-based restrictions have existed in the past in the United States, although they were eliminated largely by the time of Andrew Jackson's election in 1828, and fully so by 1856, when North Carolina abolished them. This arguably led to the proliferation of populist-based parties in the United States, starting with the Jacksonian Democrats.

This was not the end of popularization of the political system. Whether it were the passage of the seventeenth amendment (which ended the process of senators being elected by the states, and replaced it with popular election of the senators) or the

Additionally, we have seen the attempts to eliminate the last attempts the founders made at protecting the federal government from popular opinion with many states passing a measure that would legally bind their electors in the electoral college to vote for whoever the popular vote winner is, and the repeated attempts by both sides in the now-populist Senate to "Bork" the Supreme Court (looking at the Kavanaugh and Garland appointments). What was once constrained to the House of Representatives and state legislatures has now spread to the whole nation. I ask you: is this conducive to a good political system?

Though IQ is not often a good indicator of intelligence in all cases, it can certainly be correlated to other factors. I'd like to share with you some generally troubling facts about the American populace.
1. This basic scientific knowledge quiz with results suggesting that the average American does worse than if they had just guessed randomly about them on several questions, and not much better on the rest.
2. Only 34% of Americans can name all 3 branches of gov't.
3. American students perform exceptionally poorly on geography and foreign relations-based questions
These indicators suggest that Americans are ignorant, to be generous. As George Carlin once said, "Think about how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of 'em are stupider than that."

To summarize this lengthy introduction, NSG, America used to have barriers against the masses getting control of the government, and has since shed those barriers. The masses, especially in America, are overwhelmingly undereducated. Should we introduce measures to curb how much influence the average person's vote has, understanding that this is the case?

In my opinion, we should. Voting, and especially citizenship, should be based on passing the US citizenship test. Graduation from high school should include the requirement that this test be passed. Additionally, America should preclude anyone who does not pass standardized math, geography, and English proficiency tests from voting. Furthermore, America should roll back the seventeenth amendment. The average American does not deserve to vote if they cannot understand the complexity of what it means to run the most successful republic on the planet. Of course, I'd also advocate the end of property tax-based education funding before this occurred, to level the playing field.
Last edited by Jean-Paul Sartre on Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man."
-Heraclitus of Ephesus

User avatar
ECKU
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1001
Founded: Jul 08, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby ECKU » Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:53 pm

I want the American government to be Islamized. So really the only voting that would be happening is a shura voting on the next SulTaan.
Last edited by ECKU on Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Anybody who says that I support non-Islamic slavery, persecution of non-Muslims, rape, domestic violence, terrorism, pedophilia, killing homosexuals, hating Jews, etc is lying.

User avatar
Jean-Paul Sartre
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1684
Founded: Jun 26, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Jean-Paul Sartre » Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:54 pm

ECKU wrote:I want the American government to be Islamized. So really the only voting that would be happening is a shura voting on the next SulTaan.

That's nice, dear. May I suggest you take that to the Islamic Discussion Thread? Thanks.
"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man."
-Heraclitus of Ephesus

User avatar
ECKU
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1001
Founded: Jul 08, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby ECKU » Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:54 pm

Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:
ECKU wrote:I want the American government to be Islamized. So really the only voting that would be happening is a shura voting on the next SulTaan.

That's nice, dear. May I suggest you take that to the Islamic Discussion Thread? Thanks.

Islamizing a government can be discussed outside the IDT.
Anybody who says that I support non-Islamic slavery, persecution of non-Muslims, rape, domestic violence, terrorism, pedophilia, killing homosexuals, hating Jews, etc is lying.

User avatar
Jean-Paul Sartre
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1684
Founded: Jun 26, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Jean-Paul Sartre » Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:56 pm

ECKU wrote:
Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:That's nice, dear. May I suggest you take that to the Islamic Discussion Thread? Thanks.

Islamizing a government can be discussed outside the IDT.

I'm politely asking you to not discuss it here. I would like this to not be a discussion about Islam for once, though I know that's difficult for you.
"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man."
-Heraclitus of Ephesus

User avatar
The Federated Soviets of North America
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 195
Founded: Oct 31, 2018
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Federated Soviets of North America » Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:57 pm

No, this is a terrible idea. We should instead provide reasonable funding for education.
★ The Plurinational Socialist Federation of North America ★
"To a world of liberty and equality for all!"
A council communist federation that emerged from the ashes of a period of mass social upheaval in North America.
This nation takes place in a world where humanity is in the early stages of expanding into space.
Embassy/Consulate Program
Anthem
*Notices your means of production*
“☭w☭ what’s this?”

NSstats and policies are not canon, especially ID chips.

★ MADE BY COUNCIL COM GANG ★

This nation reflects my views.

Me IRL
POLL: Would you live in the federation?
I decided to compile some of my other Civ ideas

User avatar
ECKU
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1001
Founded: Jul 08, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby ECKU » Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:58 pm

Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:
ECKU wrote:Islamizing a government can be discussed outside the IDT.

I'm politely asking you to not discuss it here. I would like this to not be a discussion about Islam for once, though I know that's difficult for you.

Since when was that difficult? And no one said anything about a discussion about Al-Islam. But sure I'll stop talking about it.
Anybody who says that I support non-Islamic slavery, persecution of non-Muslims, rape, domestic violence, terrorism, pedophilia, killing homosexuals, hating Jews, etc is lying.

User avatar
Jean-Paul Sartre
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1684
Founded: Jun 26, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Jean-Paul Sartre » Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:59 pm

The Federated Soviets of North America wrote:No, this is a terrible idea. We should instead provide reasonable funding for education.

Why not both? Wouldn't that stratify those who can't understand from those who can fairly?
"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man."
-Heraclitus of Ephesus

User avatar
Rojava Free State
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19428
Founded: Feb 06, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Rojava Free State » Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:59 pm

ECKU wrote:I want the American government to be Islamized. So really the only voting that would be happening is a shura voting on the next SulTaan.


Our country isn't majority muslim. Keep that kind of government for a nation where more than 1% of the population believes in Islam
Rojava Free State wrote:Listen yall. I'm only gonna say it once but I want you to remember it. This ain't a world fit for good men. It seems like you gotta be monstrous just to make it. Gotta have a little bit of darkness within you just to survive. You gotta stoop low everyday it seems like. Stoop all the way down to the devil in these times. And then one day you look in the mirror and you realize that you ain't you anymore. You're just another monster, and thanks to your actions, someone else will eventually become as warped and twisted as you. Never forget that the best of us are just the best of a bad lot. Being at the top of a pile of feces doesn't make you anything but shit like the rest. Never forget that.

User avatar
Jean-Paul Sartre
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1684
Founded: Jun 26, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Jean-Paul Sartre » Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:59 pm

ECKU wrote:
Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:I'm politely asking you to not discuss it here. I would like this to not be a discussion about Islam for once, though I know that's difficult for you.

Since when was that difficult? And no one said anything about a discussion about Al-Islam. But sure I'll stop talking about it.

Thank you.
"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man."
-Heraclitus of Ephesus

User avatar
Liriena
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 60885
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Liriena » Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:00 pm

Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:Should we introduce measures to curb how much influence the average person's vote has, understanding that this is the case?

If your concern is that the populace is not well-educated enough to make informed political decisions, that is not necessarily, I think, an argument in favour of restricting the vote by forcing voters to undergo some sort of test. Disenfranchising people for their lack of knowledge or intelligence turns what's supposed to be a representative democracy into a technocracy with extra steps. And you'd be effectively taking a punitive approach to a problem that does have a preventative solution: improving public education.
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
if you passed biology and know
gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

I disown most of my previous posts

User avatar
Pacomia
Senator
 
Posts: 4811
Founded: May 23, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Pacomia » Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:00 pm

Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:
The Federated Soviets of North America wrote:No, this is a terrible idea. We should instead provide reasonable funding for education.

Why not both? Wouldn't that stratify those who can't understand from those who can fairly?

Also, how would we measure “intelligence”?

I’ve thought about having a “voting test” in the past, but I feel like creating a test would never work or be fair.
This nation is based on (a slightly more extreme version of) my IRL opinions, and I answer issues accordingly.
Current accidental policies: No Sex
Results of political various tests I took meme awesome
Progressive capitalism gang

GLORY TO CASCADIA, NUCLEAR ENERGY IS A GOOD THING!
This user is a male.

User avatar
The Federated Soviets of North America
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 195
Founded: Oct 31, 2018
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Federated Soviets of North America » Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:01 pm

Liriena wrote:
Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:Should we introduce measures to curb how much influence the average person's vote has, understanding that this is the case?

If your concern is that the populace is not well-educated enough to make informed political decisions, that is not necessarily, I think, an argument in favour of restricting the vote by forcing voters to undergo some sort of test. Disenfranchising people for their lack of knowledge or intelligence turns what's supposed to be a representative democracy into a technocracy with extra steps. And you'd be effectively taking a punitive approach to a problem that does have a preventative solution: improving public education.

^^^
★ The Plurinational Socialist Federation of North America ★
"To a world of liberty and equality for all!"
A council communist federation that emerged from the ashes of a period of mass social upheaval in North America.
This nation takes place in a world where humanity is in the early stages of expanding into space.
Embassy/Consulate Program
Anthem
*Notices your means of production*
“☭w☭ what’s this?”

NSstats and policies are not canon, especially ID chips.

★ MADE BY COUNCIL COM GANG ★

This nation reflects my views.

Me IRL
POLL: Would you live in the federation?
I decided to compile some of my other Civ ideas

User avatar
Jean-Paul Sartre
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1684
Founded: Jun 26, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Jean-Paul Sartre » Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:02 pm

Liriena wrote:
Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:Should we introduce measures to curb how much influence the average person's vote has, understanding that this is the case?

If your concern is that the populace is not well-educated enough to make informed political decisions, that is not necessarily, I think, an argument in favour of restricting the vote by forcing voters to undergo some sort of test. Disenfranchising people for their lack of knowledge or intelligence turns what's supposed to be a representative democracy into a technocracy with extra steps. And you'd be effectively taking a punitive approach to a problem that does have a preventative solution: improving public education.

America is a representative democracy precisely because the masses cannot be trusted with democracy. It is better to have them vote for people, and to have as many layers as possible in place between the vox populi and the high offices.
"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man."
-Heraclitus of Ephesus

User avatar
LiberNovusAmericae
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6942
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:04 pm

Pacomia wrote:
Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:Why not both? Wouldn't that stratify those who can't understand from those who can fairly?

Also, how would we measure “intelligence”?

I’ve thought about having a “voting test” in the past, but I feel like creating a test would never work or be fair.

Maybe just a basic test that deals with current branches of our government, and various political ideologies.

User avatar
Pacomia
Senator
 
Posts: 4811
Founded: May 23, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Pacomia » Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:04 pm

Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:
Liriena wrote:If your concern is that the populace is not well-educated enough to make informed political decisions, that is not necessarily, I think, an argument in favour of restricting the vote by forcing voters to undergo some sort of test. Disenfranchising people for their lack of knowledge or intelligence turns what's supposed to be a representative democracy into a technocracy with extra steps. And you'd be effectively taking a punitive approach to a problem that does have a preventative solution: improving public education.

America is a representative democracy precisely because the masses cannot be trusted with democracy. It is better to have them vote for people, and to have as many layers as possible in place between the vox populi and the high offices.

So, you’re advocating for a transition to authoritarianism.
This nation is based on (a slightly more extreme version of) my IRL opinions, and I answer issues accordingly.
Current accidental policies: No Sex
Results of political various tests I took meme awesome
Progressive capitalism gang

GLORY TO CASCADIA, NUCLEAR ENERGY IS A GOOD THING!
This user is a male.

User avatar
ECKU
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1001
Founded: Jul 08, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby ECKU » Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:05 pm

Rojava Free State wrote:
ECKU wrote:I want the American government to be Islamized. So really the only voting that would be happening is a shura voting on the next SulTaan.


Our country isn't majority muslim. Keep that kind of government for a nation where more than 1% of the population believes in Islam

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=462608&p=35936391#p35936391
Anybody who says that I support non-Islamic slavery, persecution of non-Muslims, rape, domestic violence, terrorism, pedophilia, killing homosexuals, hating Jews, etc is lying.

User avatar
The Federated Soviets of North America
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 195
Founded: Oct 31, 2018
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Federated Soviets of North America » Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:06 pm

Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:
Liriena wrote:If your concern is that the populace is not well-educated enough to make informed political decisions, that is not necessarily, I think, an argument in favour of restricting the vote by forcing voters to undergo some sort of test. Disenfranchising people for their lack of knowledge or intelligence turns what's supposed to be a representative democracy into a technocracy with extra steps. And you'd be effectively taking a punitive approach to a problem that does have a preventative solution: improving public education.

America is a representative democracy precisely because the masses cannot be trusted with democracy. It is better to have them vote for people, and to have as many layers as possible in place between the vox populi and the high offices.

The point we are both trying to make is that such restrictions could be lifted in a system where public education was drastically improved
★ The Plurinational Socialist Federation of North America ★
"To a world of liberty and equality for all!"
A council communist federation that emerged from the ashes of a period of mass social upheaval in North America.
This nation takes place in a world where humanity is in the early stages of expanding into space.
Embassy/Consulate Program
Anthem
*Notices your means of production*
“☭w☭ what’s this?”

NSstats and policies are not canon, especially ID chips.

★ MADE BY COUNCIL COM GANG ★

This nation reflects my views.

Me IRL
POLL: Would you live in the federation?
I decided to compile some of my other Civ ideas

User avatar
Pacomia
Senator
 
Posts: 4811
Founded: May 23, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Pacomia » Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:06 pm

ECKU wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:
Our country isn't majority muslim. Keep that kind of government for a nation where more than 1% of the population believes in Islam

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=462608&p=35936391#p35936391

If you don’t like it, go to Saudi Arabia.
This nation is based on (a slightly more extreme version of) my IRL opinions, and I answer issues accordingly.
Current accidental policies: No Sex
Results of political various tests I took meme awesome
Progressive capitalism gang

GLORY TO CASCADIA, NUCLEAR ENERGY IS A GOOD THING!
This user is a male.

User avatar
Jean-Paul Sartre
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1684
Founded: Jun 26, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Jean-Paul Sartre » Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:06 pm

Pacomia wrote:
Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:America is a representative democracy precisely because the masses cannot be trusted with democracy. It is better to have them vote for people, and to have as many layers as possible in place between the vox populi and the high offices.

So, you’re advocating for a transition to authoritarianism.

Incorrect. I am advocating for a constitutional democratic republic. There's no need for the sort of black-and-white thinking about "authoritarianism vs. liberalism". To preserve America's liberal values, it is necessary to introduce checks and balances.
"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man."
-Heraclitus of Ephesus

User avatar
ECKU
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1001
Founded: Jul 08, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby ECKU » Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:07 pm

Pacomia wrote:

If you don’t like it, go to Saudi Arabia.

I plan on that
Anybody who says that I support non-Islamic slavery, persecution of non-Muslims, rape, domestic violence, terrorism, pedophilia, killing homosexuals, hating Jews, etc is lying.

User avatar
Tristainland
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 50
Founded: Jul 10, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Tristainland » Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:09 pm

Maybe a little so that convicted felons cannot vote.

User avatar
Jean-Paul Sartre
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1684
Founded: Jun 26, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Jean-Paul Sartre » Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:09 pm

The Federated Soviets of North America wrote:
Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:America is a representative democracy precisely because the masses cannot be trusted with democracy. It is better to have them vote for people, and to have as many layers as possible in place between the vox populi and the high offices.

The point we are both trying to make is that such restrictions could be lifted in a system where public education was drastically improved

I disagree. Have you ever talked to the average American, even one who graduated from a decent public school? Absolutely disheartening. I don't think your hopes are nearly as well-placed as you might think.
"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man."
-Heraclitus of Ephesus

User avatar
Kowani
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44956
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:10 pm

No. Mass disenfranchisement creates unrest. Additionally, what you’d get is a self-fulfilling cycle. If the uneducated can’t vote, education would almost always be the first thing on the chopping block for funds. And that way, you get even less voters, and Social Mobility drops.
American History and Historiography; Political and Labour History, Urbanism, Political Parties, Congressional Procedure, Elections.

Servant of The Democracy since 1896.



Effortposts can be found here!

User avatar
San Lumen
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 87265
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby San Lumen » Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:12 pm

No this is a terrible idea. If you meet the age requirement and aren’t imprisoned you should be allowed to vote.

To restrict it to property owners would disenfranchise millions in urban areas and intelligence tests for voting didn’t work out very well. Such a test could easily be used to prevent certain groups from voting so let’s not.

What we should do is invest in our education system

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Alvecia, Ancientania, Cerespasia, Floofybit, General TN, Hammer Britannia, Hidrandia, Kreushia, Neo-Hermitius, Republics of the Solar Union, Singaporen Empire, Stratonesia, Taosun, Tiami, Turenia, Unogonduria, Zantalio

Advertisement

Remove ads