Prevent and why it's okay for young Muslims to be radical.

[ECKU]

There isn't.

Tell that to the Baha'i in Iran, Assyrian Christians, and atheists all over the Islamic world.

Or all the people who converted to Al-Islam.

[ECKU]

If you need lawyers to explain your religion, perhaps it's not a surprise that there's so much resistance to adopting it from non-Muslims?

In all fairness, traditional forms of Judaism and Christianity often require experts to explain them as well. As evidenced by Anti-Semites misquoting large portions of the Talmud.

I feel your pain

[Katganistan]

But he's right about that. He didn't say mass, but the RCC does still use Latin in official documents and when describing dogma.

Yeah, but the problem -currently- in Islam is something more comparable to the situation in the Roman Catholic Church before the reformation (At the point where you could literally get sent to the stake for writing the Bible in your own language). Maybe not that severe, but something close to it.

That's actually the point, now, isn't it? Islam has not yet had a reformation; it is in some sects still stuck in the state where it was when it was created, where each tribe has its own views and the other ones are therefore not really Muslim.

It is still tribal in the sense that we see illustrated here: This group is wrong, that country doesn't REALLY have Sharia, these others are takfir.

As long as there are fundamentalist sects that continue to use honor killings, stonings, beheadings etc., those sects will continue to be viewed by the West with horror and loathing. The sects that have elected to live peacefully side by side with others endure a lot of prejudice and distrust because of the violent practices of others -- against even their fellow Muslims.

So attempting to install Sharia in a place like the US is going to be met with nothing but resistance, and violent resistance at that. We got OVER that phase with the Puritans, thank you, we're not going back.

[Paddy O Fernature]

And we love the lot of you trying to tell us the the world needs to convert to Islam or else.

Thank you. Did you use my links on jihaad, or read the tl;dr?

So, not only did you fail utterly AGAIN to grasp what I was saying pretty damn clearly here, but you also managed to admit that you not only want, but are trying to tell/force the rest of the world to convert to Islam or else in the same sentence.

Out fucking standing.

If you need lawyers to explain your religion, perhaps it's not a surprise that there's so much resistance to adopting it from non-Muslims?

Yet you need lawyers to explain your laws and don't see them as difficult to follow.

That's not even close to the same thing... at all.

[Al Mumtahanah]

ibn Taymiyyah was very critical of Sufism. Some forms Sufism do need to be criticized and abolished. Barelvism in particular is a tumor.

Yes, and Salafis tend to lean on Ibn Taymiyyah more so than medieval Hanbalis did.

That's probably because he wrote at the very end of the Middle Ages, but he is considered an exemplary theologican by every school today regardless of disagreements. His creed is agreed to be the definitive formulation of Athari aqidah.

[Al Mumtahanah]

Thank you. Did you use my links on jihaad, or read the tl;dr?

So, not only did you fail utterly AGAIN to grasp what I was saying pretty damn clearly here, but you also managed to admit that you not only want, but are trying to tell/force the rest of the world to convert to Islam or else in the same sentence.

Out fucking standing.

Yet you need lawyers to explain your laws and don't see them as difficult to follow.

That's not even close to the same thing... at all.

Yes it is. Day-to-day Islam is not difficult for a layman to articulate or understand, it's finer points that require scholarly consultation.

[Page]

Tell that to the Baha'i in Iran, Assyrian Christians, and atheists all over the Islamic world.

Or all the people who converted to Al-Islam.

Some by choice, some by the sword.

[Fahran]

Yes it is. Day-to-day Islam is not difficult for a layman to articulate or understand, it's finer points that require scholarly consultation.

I believe you underestimate the extent to which Muslims, even those immersed in the conventions of sharia, often err. People may understand, for example, that consuming alcohol or engaging in premarital sex is contradictory to sharia, but I'm willing to bet that many commit smaller errors or behave in less than generous ways in their personal life. The recent spat of girls fleeing forced marriages does suggest this - especially given that Islam requires consent from a bride.

I feel your pain

And I yours.

Also, stop getting nations deleted before you get sent to the NS gulag.

[Paddy O Fernature]

So, not only did you fail utterly AGAIN to grasp what I was saying pretty damn clearly here, but you also managed to admit that you not only want, but are trying to tell/force the rest of the world to convert to Islam or else in the same sentence.

Out fucking standing.





That's not even close to the same thing... at all.

Yes it is. Day-to-day Islam is not difficult for a layman to articulate or understand, it's finer points that require scholarly consultation.

That's the part of my post that you deem worthy to respond to?

What an absolute shocker, and just further proves my point.

[ECKU]

Thank you. Did you use my links on jihaad, or read the tl;dr?

So, not only did you fail utterly AGAIN to grasp what I was saying pretty d*mn clearly here, but you also managed to admit that you not only want, but are trying to tell/force the rest of the world to convert to Islam or else in the same sentence.

Out *ucking standing.

Yes, most Abrahamic religions tell people to convert or else Jahannam.

So did you use the links or read the tl;dr?

[Paddy O Fernature]

So, not only did you fail utterly AGAIN to grasp what I was saying pretty d*mn clearly here, but you also managed to admit that you not only want, but are trying to tell/force the rest of the world to convert to Islam or else in the same sentence.

Out *ucking standing.

Yes, most Abrahamic religions tell people to convert or else Jahannam.

So did you use the links or read the tl;dr?

That's not what you have been advocating for and you know it. Nice try backpedaling though.

[ECKU]

Yes it is. Day-to-day Islam is not difficult for a layman to articulate or understand, it's finer points that require scholarly consultation.

I believe you underestimate the extent to which Muslims, even those immersed in the conventions of sharia, often err. People may understand, for example, that consuming alcohol or engaging in premarital sex is contradictory to sharia, but I'm willing to bet that many commit smaller errors or behave in less than generous ways in their personal life. The recent spat of girls fleeing forced marriages does suggest this - especially given that Islam requires consent from a bride.

Yeah, our Ummah's edged up in many ways, we need to come back on the Deen.

And I yours.

Also, stop getting nations deleted before you get sent to the NS gulag.

Oof, I'll try >w<

[ECKU]

Yes, most Abrahamic religions tell people to convert or else Jahannam.

So did you use the links or read the tl;dr?

That's not what you have been advocating for and you know it. Nice try backpedaling though.

I was, that's how I took "or else" to mean. You still didn't answer my question.

[Katganistan]

If you need lawyers to explain your religion, perhaps it's not a surprise that there's so much resistance to adopting it from non-Muslims?

There isn't.

There isn't?

Has not the rhetoric of the sitting president of the United States who calls all Muslims terrorists faded out of your conscience completely, or is your view of reality completely warped? That he has stated publicly, multiple times, that there were Muslims celebrating in the streets as the towers came down when that did not happen?

Have the fascists that have lined up behind him wanting to create a white America with no brown people in it just been a fairytale to you?

For God's sake, turn on the television or read a newspaper once in a while. They're rounding up people and putting them in detention centers. Surely you don't think ICE will stop with Latinos?

Crack a history book, will you?

[Loben The 2nd]

There isn't.

There isn't?

Has not the rhetoric of the sitting president of the United States who calls all Muslims terrorists faded out of your conscience completely, or is your view of reality completely warped?

Have the fascists that have lined up behind him wanting to create a white America with no brown people in it just been a fairytale to you?

For God's sake, turn on the television or read a newspaper once in a while. They're rounding up people and putting them in detention centers. Surely you don't think ICE will stop with Latinos?

Crack a history book, will you?

are they rounding up ANY latino or those who are not naturalized citizens or Citizens?

[Paddy O Fernature]

That's not what you have been advocating for and you know it. Nice try backpedaling though.

I was, that's how I took "or else" to mean.

As apparently by the multiple times you have blatantly misunderstood and misrepresented peoples fairly clear arguments, at this point id say that you either need seriously improvement at reading comprehension, or that you are deliberately misrepresenting them on purpose.

[Katganistan]

There isn't.

Tell that to the Baha'i in Iran, Assyrian Christians, and atheists all over the Islamic world.

Don't forget Sudan.

[ECKU]

There isn't.

There isn't?

Has not the rhetoric of the sitting president of the United States who calls all Muslims terrorists faded out of your conscience completely, or is your view of reality completely warped? That he has stated publicly, multiple times, that there were Muslims celebrating in the streets as the towers came down when that did not happen?

Have the fascists that have lined up behind him wanting to create a white America with no brown people in it just been a fairytale to you?

For God's sake, turn on the television or read a newspaper once in a while. They're rounding up people and putting them in detention centers. Surely you don't think ICE will stop with Latinos?

Crack a history book, will you?

Idk what this has to do with your previous post about non-Muslims turning away from Al-Islam just because scholars need to explain certain concepts.

[Fahran]

Yes, and Salafis tend to lean on Ibn Taymiyyah more so than medieval Hanbalis did.

That's probably because he wrote at the very end of the Middle Ages, but he is considered an exemplary theologican by every school today regardless of disagreements. His creed is agreed to be the definitive formulation of Athari aqidah.

True, and even medieval Muslims had a love-hate relationship with Sufism. Saladin's son had at least one notable Sufi executed for example. Not too surprising given that some of the ideas are difficult to conceptualize without proper instruction. That said, Ibn Taymiyyah was controversial in his own life for his iconoclastic views on, for example, the veneration of saints, something that was not uncommon in traditional Islam. He also seems to have differed somewhat in his opinions to modern Salafis in that he did acknowledge the existence of saints, albeit while rejecting their veneration, and did rely on rational arguments that went beyond the Quran and hadiths.

[Al Mumtahanah]

Yes it is. Day-to-day Islam is not difficult for a layman to articulate or understand, it's finer points that require scholarly consultation.

I believe you underestimate the extent to which Muslims, even those immersed in the conventions of sharia, often err. People may understand, for example, that consuming alcohol or engaging in premarital sex is contradictory to sharia, but I'm willing to bet that many commit smaller errors or behave in less than generous ways in their personal life. The recent spat of girls fleeing forced marriages does suggest this - especially given that Islam requires consent from a bride.

I feel your pain

And I yours.

Also, stop getting nations deleted before you get sent to the NS gulag.

Errors are not a sin, sin is judged solely by intent and if a requirement would be too onerous for you and you have never heard it, you are not supposed to ask.

[Fahran]

Errors are not a sin, sin is judged solely by intent and if a requirement would be too onerous for you and you have never heard it, you are not supposed to ask.

Departure from the law does strike me as sinful in some contexts. I'm not especially familiar with how Islam approaches sin since I'm a casual student who has studied a few schools of jurisprudence and has been curious about the similarities between Islam and my own religion Judaism - especially because my ancestors had numerous interactions with the Islamic world. But, with regard to women fleeing forced marriages, I do believe ignoring the requirement that brides must consent to marriages qualifies as sinful and abusive under Islamic law.

[Nova Cyberia]

Will your laws actually physically improve people's lives? Will they lead to better living conditions?

Ah, I see. No, Shariaa isn't intended to be like Plato's Republic. Islamic belief is that a society's prosperity depends mostly on the virtue and industry of the people in it.

Then there is no reason to adopt your flimsy laws.

[Katganistan]

There isn't?

Has not the rhetoric of the sitting president of the United States who calls all Muslims terrorists faded out of your conscience completely, or is your view of reality completely warped? That he has stated publicly, multiple times, that there were Muslims celebrating in the streets as the towers came down when that did not happen?

Have the fascists that have lined up behind him wanting to create a white America with no brown people in it just been a fairytale to you?

For God's sake, turn on the television or read a newspaper once in a while. They're rounding up people and putting them in detention centers. Surely you don't think ICE will stop with Latinos?

Crack a history book, will you?

Idk what this has to do with your previous post about non-Muslims turning away from Al-Islam just because scholars need to explain certain concepts.

Of course you don't.

I said there was serious resistance to it.
You said there isn't.
I give an example of resistance to it.
You say you don't understand the connection.

If you're going to play obtuse, or if you really have no understanding of what you read, there is zero point responding to you or taking anything you say as accurate -- especially when your fellow adherents have called you out on multiple inaccuracies in your statements, and you have misrepresented and misinterpreted multiple points others have made.

And you had the gall to tell me *I* need to learn to read, "The Twin Towers were full of terrorists".

If you don't believe he still has no respect for Muslims, and neither do his followers, he just told four Democratic congresspeople, three of whom were BORN here, to get out of the US and go back to their hellhole, corrupt countries.

Apparently he's too stupid to understand that Puerto Rico IS part of America, and that Ocasio-Cortez was born in the Bronx, and Rashida Talaib was born here too. Ilhan Omar is an American citizen as well as Ayanna Pressley. Do I agree with them? No. But to tell them to get out of the country and go home is massively racist, and it's no coincidence that two of the people he said that to are Muslim.

[ECKU]

Errors are not a sin, sin is judged solely by intent and if a requirement would be too onerous for you and you have never heard it, you are not supposed to ask.

Departure from the law does strike me as sinful in some contexts. I'm not especially familiar with how Islam approaches sin since I'm a casual student who has studied a few schools of jurisprudence and has been curious about the similarities between Islam and my own religion Judaism - especially because my ancestors had numerous interactions with the Islamic world. But, with regard to women fleeing forced marriages, I do believe ignoring the requirement that brides must consent to marriages qualifies as sinful and abusive under Islamic law.

Yes, Prophet Muhammad SAWS said that a forced marriage is not a true marriage, but at the same time doing something out of ignorance doesn't incur sin. Obvs if the people forcing their children to marry know it's Haraam and still do it, then they have incurred sin.

Ah, I see. No, Shariaa isn't intended to be like Plato's Republic. Islamic belief is that a society's prosperity depends mostly on the virtue and industry of the people in it.

Then there is no reason to adopt your flimsy laws.

What? They're more stable than kufr law.

[ECKU]

Idk what this has to do with your previous post about non-Muslims turning away from Al-Islam just because scholars need to explain certain concepts.

Of course you don't.

I said there was serious resistance to it.
You said there isn't.
I give an example of resistance to it.
You say you don't understand the connection.

If you're going to play obtuse, or if you really have no understanding of what you read, there is zero point responding to you or taking anything you say as accurate -- especially when your fellow adherents have called you out on multiple inaccuracies in your statements

Where?

and you have misrepresented and misinterpreted multiple points others have made.

My apologies for that

And you had the gall to tell me *I* need to learn to read, "The Twin Towers were full of terrorists".

You didn't read the quote chain I posted, did you?