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UK Politics Thread X: Boris' Big Bonkers Brexit Bash

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What is your favoured form of brexit?

Mays deal
28
5%
EFTA
36
6%
Some other sort of deal (please elaborate in the comments)
24
4%
Mays deal without Irish backstop
9
2%
No deal
132
23%
No deal+ (no deal minus NI and Scotland)
20
4%
I want a second referendum
208
37%
Revoke article 50 without even calling a referendum
105
19%
 
Total votes : 562

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Fartsniffage
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Posts: 39118
Founded: Dec 19, 2005
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Fartsniffage » Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:19 am

Dooom35796821595 wrote:
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:As said by Fart, this is a challenge before a British court. They can strike it down.

And the deal can moet certainly be struck down by the ECJ, since the ECJ will retain jurisdiction over the UK for the two year transition period. Honestly, did you read the deal?

As a footnote, you also mixed up the ECJ and the ECtHR. The ECtHR will retain its jurisdiction over the UK since it is not leaving the Council of Europe, a completely different organisation from the EU.


The UK Supreme Court can’t strike down an act of Parliament.

https://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2011/01/2 ... confusion/

“No it cannot. Unlike some Supreme Courts in other parts of the world, the UK Supreme Court does not have the power to ‘strike down’ legislation passed by the UK Parliament. It is not the Court’s role to formulate public policy, but to interpret law and develop it where necessary, through well-established processes and methods of reasoning.”


They're not asking the Court to strike down anything. They're asking it to prevent the deal being voted on in the first place as accepting it would be breaking current British law. One the law in question has been changed then it could be presented for a vote in Parliament.

It's a tactic to delay the vote past tomorrow to force Boris to send the extension request to Europe.
Strong opinions, lightly held.

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Dooom35796821595
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Founded: Sep 11, 2011
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Postby Dooom35796821595 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:26 am

Fartsniffage wrote:
Dooom35796821595 wrote:
The UK Supreme Court can’t strike down an act of Parliament.

https://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2011/01/2 ... confusion/

“No it cannot. Unlike some Supreme Courts in other parts of the world, the UK Supreme Court does not have the power to ‘strike down’ legislation passed by the UK Parliament. It is not the Court’s role to formulate public policy, but to interpret law and develop it where necessary, through well-established processes and methods of reasoning.”


They're not asking the Court to strike down anything. They're asking it to prevent the deal being voted on in the first place as accepting it would be breaking current British law. One the law in question has been changed then it could be presented for a vote in Parliament.

It's a tactic to delay the vote past tomorrow to force Boris to send the extension request to Europe.


GCCS claimed they could strike it down.

And I don’t see how the courts could delay a vote any more then they can revoke an act of parliament.
When life gives you lemons, you BURN THEIR HOUSE DOWN!
Anything can be justified if it is cool. If at first you don't succeed, destroy all in your way.
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Fartsniffage
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Founded: Dec 19, 2005
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Fartsniffage » Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:37 am

Dooom35796821595 wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
They're not asking the Court to strike down anything. They're asking it to prevent the deal being voted on in the first place as accepting it would be breaking current British law. One the law in question has been changed then it could be presented for a vote in Parliament.

It's a tactic to delay the vote past tomorrow to force Boris to send the extension request to Europe.


GCCS claimed they could strike it down.

And I don’t see how the courts could delay a vote any more then they can revoke an act of parliament.



Good for him. He's wrong.

I think their seeking an injunction to force the government to appeal it or be seen as considering itself above the law. They only need it delayed by a day.
Strong opinions, lightly held.

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Dooom35796821595
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Postby Dooom35796821595 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:45 am

Fartsniffage wrote:
Dooom35796821595 wrote:
GCCS claimed they could strike it down.

And I don’t see how the courts could delay a vote any more then they can revoke an act of parliament.



Good for him. He's wrong.

I think their seeking an injunction to force the government to appeal it or be seen as considering itself above the law. They only need it delayed by a day.


Parliament sort of is above the law, since it writes it. And I think Boris would prefer that, since it can be spun as parliamentary supremacy (which it sort of is) over sending an extension request.

At the end of the day it’s using legal trickery to try and sabotage the government and Parliament. The court should ignore it.
When life gives you lemons, you BURN THEIR HOUSE DOWN!
Anything can be justified if it is cool. If at first you don't succeed, destroy all in your way.
"Your methods are stupid! Your progress has been stupid! Your intelligence is stupid! For the sake of the mission, you must be terminated!”

User avatar
Fartsniffage
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Posts: 39118
Founded: Dec 19, 2005
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Fartsniffage » Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:50 am

Dooom35796821595 wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:

Good for him. He's wrong.

I think their seeking an injunction to force the government to appeal it or be seen as considering itself above the law. They only need it delayed by a day.


Parliament sort of is above the law, since it writes it. And I think Boris would prefer that, since it can be spun as parliamentary supremacy (which it sort of is) over sending an extension request.

At the end of the day it’s using legal trickery to try and sabotage the government and Parliament. The court should ignore it.


Parliament is, the Government isn't. There is a difference.
Strong opinions, lightly held.

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Dooom35796821595
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Postby Dooom35796821595 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:01 am

Fartsniffage wrote:
Dooom35796821595 wrote:
Parliament sort of is above the law, since it writes it. And I think Boris would prefer that, since it can be spun as parliamentary supremacy (which it sort of is) over sending an extension request.

At the end of the day it’s using legal trickery to try and sabotage the government and Parliament. The court should ignore it.


Parliament is, the Government isn't. There is a difference.


Ah, right. Missed that. :lol:

Still overly political, the courts should wait until after the act is passed, since it can be amended later.
Also, wasn’t that 19th deadline only going to be enforced if they thought the PM was going to try and loophole a hard exit? The benn act surely wouldn’t apply if the government are acting in good faith and it’s the courts causing the issue, so the court would have to allow it one way or another.
When life gives you lemons, you BURN THEIR HOUSE DOWN!
Anything can be justified if it is cool. If at first you don't succeed, destroy all in your way.
"Your methods are stupid! Your progress has been stupid! Your intelligence is stupid! For the sake of the mission, you must be terminated!”

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The Huskar Social Union
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Posts: 50265
Founded: Apr 04, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Huskar Social Union » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:02 am

500!

balls.
Last edited by The Huskar Social Union on Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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SD_Film Artists
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Founded: Jun 10, 2009
Father Knows Best State

Postby SD_Film Artists » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:03 am

Fartsniffage wrote:
It's a tactic to delay the vote past tomorrow to force Boris to send the extension request to Europe.


But Juncker has ruled out an extension. Tusk has reportedly not ruled one out but he hasn't recently supported one either. If voting against a deal is effectively a no-deal then parliament are breaking their own law (or motion?) that they won't vote for a no-deal.
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Chan Island
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Posts: 5499
Founded: Nov 26, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Chan Island » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:06 am

The Huskar Social Union wrote:500!

balls.



The dramatic moment is upon us.

But who shall take on the mantle of OPship?
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

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Gravlen
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Posts: 14660
Founded: Jul 01, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Gravlen » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:09 am

Fartsniffage wrote:
Dooom35796821595 wrote:
GCCS claimed they could strike it down.

And I don’t see how the courts could delay a vote any more then they can revoke an act of parliament.



Good for him. He's wrong.

I think their seeking an injunction to force the government to appeal it or be seen as considering itself above the law. They only need it delayed by a day.

This is what they're asking:

This matter comes to the court before calling on the petitioner’s applicationfor interimorders in terms of subparagraphs (i) and (ii) of the Prayer of the petition, namely:

(i)To suspend ad interim the purported agreement which is said by the United Kingdom government to have concluded between it and the European Union and the United Kingdom government, on the basis that this agreement provides for Northern Ireland to form part of a separate customs territory to Great Britain

(ii)For interdict ad interim against Ministers of the Crown in right of the United Kingdom including the Prime Minister (and anybody acting on their behalf or at their request) from entering into arrangements under which Northern Ireland is to form part of a separate customs territory to Great Britain; and to grant interdict ad interim

Document via this article.

I'm unconvinced by the arguments put forth by O’Neill and his client Maugham. I think the Governments argument is more persuasive in this case, and I'd even question if Maugham has standing to bring this case to the courts at this time.

Let's see what the court says.
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Fartsniffage
Post Czar
 
Posts: 39118
Founded: Dec 19, 2005
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Fartsniffage » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:09 am

SD_Film Artists wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
It's a tactic to delay the vote past tomorrow to force Boris to send the extension request to Europe.


But Juncker has ruled out an extension. Tusk has reportedly not ruled one out but he hasn't recently supported one either. If voting against a deal is effectively a no-deal then parliament are breaking their own law (or motion?) that they won't vote for a no-deal.


Parliament isn't bound by it's own laws.
Strong opinions, lightly held.

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Dooom35796821595
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Posts: 9309
Founded: Sep 11, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Dooom35796821595 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:14 am

Fartsniffage wrote:
SD_Film Artists wrote:
But Juncker has ruled out an extension. Tusk has reportedly not ruled one out but he hasn't recently supported one either. If voting against a deal is effectively a no-deal then parliament are breaking their own law (or motion?) that they won't vote for a no-deal.


Parliament isn't bound by it's own laws.


You make Parliament sound like Judge Dredd: “I am the law!” :lol:
When life gives you lemons, you BURN THEIR HOUSE DOWN!
Anything can be justified if it is cool. If at first you don't succeed, destroy all in your way.
"Your methods are stupid! Your progress has been stupid! Your intelligence is stupid! For the sake of the mission, you must be terminated!”

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Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 145000
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Ifreann » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:18 am

Chan Island wrote:
The Huskar Social Union wrote:500!

balls.



The dramatic moment is upon us.

But who shall take on the mantle of OPship?

Whoever can bribe the DUP to support them.
Mistake Not My Current State Of Regular Thorough Handwashing For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Mask Wearing That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Social Distancing
He/Him

You've got a lonesome road to walk, and it ain't along the railroad track, and it ain't along the black-top tar you walked a hundred times before.
I'll tell you where the real road lies: between your ears, behind your eyes. That is the path to paradise, likewise the road to ruin.

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Fartsniffage
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Posts: 39118
Founded: Dec 19, 2005
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Fartsniffage » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:23 am

Ifreann wrote:
Chan Island wrote:

The dramatic moment is upon us.

But who shall take on the mantle of OPship?

Whoever can bribe the DUP to support them.


I have a couple of pallets in my back yard?
Strong opinions, lightly held.

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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:26 am

>Scottish Secretary Alister Jack says he thinks Conservative MPs who do not back Boris Johnson's Brexit deal on Saturday should have the party whip removed.

Oh hey here we go again.
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Chan Island
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Founded: Nov 26, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Chan Island » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:28 am

Vassenor wrote:>Scottish Secretary Alister Jack says he thinks Conservative MPs who do not back Boris Johnson's Brexit deal on Saturday should have the party whip removed.

Oh hey here we go again.


Ooh, Ooh! Let's guess how many more are going to be expelled!
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

User avatar
Chan Island
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5499
Founded: Nov 26, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Chan Island » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:29 am

Ifreann wrote:
Chan Island wrote:

The dramatic moment is upon us.

But who shall take on the mantle of OPship?

Whoever can bribe the DUP to support them.


I have 12p in my pocket, and can pull off a really big smile.
Do I win?
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

User avatar
Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 145000
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Ifreann » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:32 am

Fartsniffage wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Whoever can bribe the DUP to support them.


I have a couple of pallets in my back yard?

Sniffage takes an early lead.
Mistake Not My Current State Of Regular Thorough Handwashing For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Mask Wearing That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Social Distancing
He/Him

You've got a lonesome road to walk, and it ain't along the railroad track, and it ain't along the black-top tar you walked a hundred times before.
I'll tell you where the real road lies: between your ears, behind your eyes. That is the path to paradise, likewise the road to ruin.

User avatar
Dooom35796821595
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9309
Founded: Sep 11, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Dooom35796821595 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:32 am

Chan Island wrote:
Vassenor wrote:>Scottish Secretary Alister Jack says he thinks Conservative MPs who do not back Boris Johnson's Brexit deal on Saturday should have the party whip removed.

Oh hey here we go again.


Ooh, Ooh! Let's guess how many more are going to be expelled!


There can be only one!
When life gives you lemons, you BURN THEIR HOUSE DOWN!
Anything can be justified if it is cool. If at first you don't succeed, destroy all in your way.
"Your methods are stupid! Your progress has been stupid! Your intelligence is stupid! For the sake of the mission, you must be terminated!”

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The Blaatschapen
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 58736
Founded: Antiquity
Anarchy

Postby The Blaatschapen » Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:15 am

Nice, this season finale gets its own thread :)
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The Huskar Social Union
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 50265
Founded: Apr 04, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Huskar Social Union » Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:32 am

Ill make a new thread.
Irish Nationalist from Belfast / SDLP-Alliance Party / Leftwinger / Atheist
Miniature Painting, Cheese, Curry, Tanks and English Gals are my Kryptonite


I never thought in terms of being a leader. I thought very simply in terms of helping people’ - John Hume


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The Huskar Social Union
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 50265
Founded: Apr 04, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Huskar Social Union » Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:40 am

Irish Nationalist from Belfast / SDLP-Alliance Party / Leftwinger / Atheist
Miniature Painting, Cheese, Curry, Tanks and English Gals are my Kryptonite


I never thought in terms of being a leader. I thought very simply in terms of helping people’ - John Hume


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